18. Dez 2017, 02:16 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 

News:



Autor Thema: Gondor Archers & Archery Range  (Gelesen 665 mal)

Offline Captain Jin

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 13
  • By the blood of our people is your land kept safe.
Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« am: 6. Apr 2017, 06:41 »
It seems like Gondor Archers are entirely looked over both in favor of the Ithilliens and due to their lackluster ability. They're weak in both damage and armor, and they simply don't seem worth making when Ithilliens are always a better choice. I understand the idea of upgraded units and hero support as the Gondor way, but at the same time Gondor Archers are entirely worthless unupgraded and irrelevant by the time you can give it to them. I'm uncertain on the numbers, but they barely seem any better than an orc archer horde. As a simple fix, maybe just reducing their CP to 60. Maybe they're not better, but they make way for more units that way.

Also, because of their current uselessness, the Archery Range's only function is for the Fire Arrow upgrade for Ithilliens. Perhaps we could place Gondor Archers in the Barracks and moving Fire Arrows to either the Blacksmith or the Ranger Camp. I understand the iconic reputation the Archery Range has, but taking an entire build slot for an under-used unit and a single upgrade just seems like a waste. Cavalry are in a similar situation, but the only other cavalry Gondor can get are Dol Amroth Knights from an Outpost. They are much more clearly defined in their role than Gondor Archers are.

And while you may disagree with the idea of removing the archery range (which honestly is a building I love and only suggest due to the situation), I'd also like acknowledgement if others also find either of these an issue, disregarding my suggestions for a solution.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Apr 2017, 18:12 von Captain Jin »

Offline Morwereth

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 14
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #1 am: 6. Apr 2017, 09:47 »
It was said that they will receive some changes in next update, about their formation I guess.

I agree on they are in unpreferable position and it makes archery range seem like a useless choice, at least in main base. Hopefully, we can see Gondor Archers more useful in 4.5.

Offline Garlodur

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 96
  • In Moria, in Khazad-Dûm
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #2 am: 7. Apr 2017, 17:10 »
I understand where you are coming from Captain Jin, since I don't use Gondor Archers often either. However, I admit that my tactical experience is not great enough to claim that they are completely useless. Therefore I will give you a few reasons why the Archery Range is still present in the mod.

1. The idea of reconstructing the BfME1 fixed build plot system is that players have to choose carefully what strategy they are going for by indicating what units or upgrades they give presence within their castle, camp, outpost or settlement. In this case the Archery Range is a building not necessary to win the game, but it is usually build in mid or late game to provide archers with more fire power. If however, you are playing against a faction that will annihilate light-armoured troops (such as Lothlórien's archer divisions) going for stronger Ithilien Rangers or other ranged options will put you at a disadvantage. Instead of building the Archery Range here, you can choose for a Stables to trample their archers, an extra economy building, a Marketplace, or Stoneworker if their Ents are on the march. Having to make choices improves the importance of strategy in the game.

2. The Archery Range is an iconic element in the Gondor faction in BfME1 and the Men of the West faction in BfME2. It is highly unlikely that the ET will do away with it, knowing how much they draw from existing sources of lore, games, and films. The building characterises the significance of Gondor Archers in defending the castle, reminiscent of the Siege of Minas Tirith.

3. There are in fact a few strategic niches in which Gondor Archers will outperform Ithilien Rangers. Firstly, they can be recruited during a siege, while a Ranger Camp is out in the wild, easily attacked by all kinds of troops. Secondly, tying in to the first, their formation allows them to effectively rain down arrows from the fortress walls without dying to enemy archers. Thirdly, even if Gondor Archers are used offensively, they are more likely to survive a cavalry charge. This is because of their higher armour values and higher numbers in a battalion. I cannot think of more but I am sure more tactical geniuses can help us out here.

4. Wouldn't it be very boring if one building becomes too central and powerful in a faction? This is what you are suggesting, to make the Gondor Barracks the most efficient  building in the game: it costs 300 and builds all units you need for a wide range of standard and specialised situations. You might say that Mordor Barracks are equally important but Orcs cannot run a siege on their own. Same with Angmar Barracks: although they are the core Thralls and Men of Carn Dûm can be made so much more effective when supported by either Wights, siege, Wolves, or Sorcerers if you can micromanage them.

In the past these issues have come up too, and have basically been answered with these four reasons, if not more.

Besides, don't forget that Gondor Archers will be made more effective in the next patch because of the new Spell that gives increased damage and armour to Gondor units in their formation.

Best,
Garlodur

Offline Captain Jin

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 13
  • By the blood of our people is your land kept safe.
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #3 am: 7. Apr 2017, 18:30 »
I appreciate the response Garlodur, and I acknowledge you've made quite a few good points. However, I think I've got a fair argument for a number of them.

1. Along with the fact that Gondor does have the most build plots of any faction, I understand this completely. But with that in mind, it doesn't excuse a building of being relatively worthless/situational compared to the other options, what with Gondor Archers being relatively sub-par. On top of that, it's extremely inefficient cost-wise for the upgrade. 300 for the building, 400 for level 2, 600 for level 3, and then another 800 for the upgrade. In my Gondor army I rarely make more than 4 archer units, and can usually keep them well behind the front line so I rarely have to replace them. That's a total of 2100 for a single upgrade and 50% faster production on a unit already rarely used.

2. I've got an issue with the argument "it's iconic". Sure, the characters, buildings, places and what not can be iconic, but aesthetic decisions should never hold any water against the idea of game balance (or as the Edain team has spoken of fondly, lore-accuracy). The Gondor Archery range is honestly a building I've loved since I started playing BFME2 (I don't recall if it was in the first one), and looks fantastic. However, with the current meta of Edain I think there's a fair argument that the building is outdated.

3. I'll agree there are a few ways Gondor Archers are better than Rangers. However, without their upgrades they fall very short of the mark. Lacking heavy armor, they get trampled just as easily as the Rangers do (while maybe having a few survivors, but the unit is effectively dead or routed). They objectively have extremely low damage, and the Ranger's Unexpected Salvo is a fantastic ability that seems very underused. Perhaps Gondor Archers are more versatile in the late game due to the heavy armor, but putting heavy armor on ranged units either tells me there is already more than enough resources to finish the fight or the army is in bad shape.

4. Every faction can recruit it's 3 basic units from a single building. Isengard Uruk Pits, Dwarven Hall of Warriors, Lothlorien Guardhouse, Rivendell Barracks, Mordor Orc Pits, and Angmar Hall of the Kings men. Swords, pikes, ranged, and more often than not a few heroic/specialized units. Gondor Archers aren't with the other basic units, almost negating the bonus of having that extra build slot from that perspective. Gondor does have a lack of variety in their specialized units but it seems more to make them the "bread and butter" faction; the default army of the game as the Edain team has said. Perhaps the elite units could be moved to a new building to compensate, but as it is the Archery Range still seems a waste.

The new spell will definitely improve Gondor's basic units, and may in fact be enough to make Gondor Archers stand out against Ithilliens. However, the argument still stands in regards to the Archery Range, I believe.

Offline mycaelspear

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 23
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #4 am: 9. Mai 2017, 17:29 »
I think I have to agree with Jin here. The building is overpriced for a single unit and upgrade and we have already sacrificed much of the aesthetics in order to get lore accurate units and abilities. Also to address the point of all of Gondor's unit upgrades will be in one building and this will be op. This is how it is for every other faction in the game. I'll address each point like Jin did.

1. Cost of building Jin already broke down the cost so I won't repeat the breakdown here but I would like to point out that no other faction in the game has a building with only 1 unit and 1 upgrade with the exception of angmars barrow wights, but they get life steal and upgrades the more barrow den, tunnel things you own.

2. What Jin said.

3. They have almost the exact same battalion size as the rangers and have exactly the same as mordor orc archers who are way better then them since you dont have to research an 800 rp upgrade. It is a sad day when orc archers are better then the trained army of Gondor.

4. Jin covered it well but it's worth reiterating every faction except gondor gets a swordsman, a pikeman, a archer, and a specialty or heroic unit from one building except gondor.

Finally the "formation they have" is no where near as good as the rangers abilities to justify this building existing. Here it is from the wiki.

Loose Formation - The Gondor Archers spread apart from each other gaining accuracy but losing range as they must move away from the target to clear their line of sight. They gain +25% damage but lose -15% range.


Offline Odysseus

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 704
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #5 am: 9. Mai 2017, 18:46 »
There will be some interesting things that you can try in 4.5 for the Gondorian Archers. Apart from the fully-upgraded Gondor Archers besting fully-upgraded Ithilien Rangers one on one, if you look at the new spellbook, their general spell is a big boost to units in formation, and Gondor Archers have a formation. The spell completely cancels out their formation built-in weakness, so they'll actually be a lot more powerful once you get that unlocked.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Offline mycaelspear

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 23
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #6 am: 11. Mai 2017, 19:51 »
That's good to know Odeysseous. Out of curiosity where do you stand on the argument though of keeping or removing the archery range. Even if they are much better still seems dumb for a basic unit to have its own building.

Offline Odysseus

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 704
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #7 am: 11. Mai 2017, 20:27 »
It's difficult to say. I have moments where I am thinking, it makes no sense, and moments where I think, I guess placing the archers in the regular barracks and placing fire arrows in the blacksmith would be a huge boost to Gondor, since they can then save an extra buildplot for other things, which is not really the thing Gondor needs right now. The faction seems to be in a solid state overall.

Furthermore, Gondor's design is not very lenient towards archers, they serve a more ad-hoc/supportive role in the faction and I believe the team fears that putting archers in the barracks might make balance suffer since their versatile, mainline playstyle does not depend on archers to function effectively, if you understand what I mean to say.

Gondor has a lot of power in the mid-game and I also believe that that is where archer comps can quickly come online. Gondor Archers are overlooked usually because they are a more long term investment compared to Ithilien Rangers. Ithilien Rangers are great when you buy them, but Gondor Archers, when fully upgraded, are more powerful later on and thus need time to scale, making it riskier to go for them. I believe a 40% damage buff is nothing to scoff at though and might make it feel less bad to go for the seperate Archery Range in 4.5.

Once 4.5 releases, make sure you come back to me and tell me how the change feels. Maybe, with the significant indirect buff, you might think it is best if Gondor Archers remain a support unit ;).
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Offline >Darkness<

  • Edain Betatester
  • Held von Helms Klamm
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.250
  • Xayah <3
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #8 am: 12. Mai 2017, 10:09 »
Zitat
I guess placing the archers in the regular barracks and placing fire arrows in the blacksmith would be a huge boost to Gondor, since they can then save an extra buildplot for other things, which is not really the thing Gondor needs right now.

I agree with Odysseus. I think the quote is exactly the biggest problem with this changes.
Grüße Darkness


Discord Server für Edain, League of Legends und mehr: https://discord.gg/XKnXzSw

Offline mycaelspear

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 23
Re: Gondor Archers & Archery Range
« Antwort #9 am: 21. Jun 2017, 21:37 »
I'll let you know thoughts Odyseus when 4.5 finally comes out :). I'm monitoring the moddb and these forums almost daily for it