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Warg-riders and Warg-archers role
von
AulëTheSmith
am 02 Mai, 2017 15:02
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Hello companions of Edain
In light of last news about Isengard spellbook (which is the best of the three presented so far in my opinion
) i elaborated some brief ideas to possibly define better the role of isengard warg riders and introduce warg archers as a recrutable unit (since the spell has been removed). Referring to the warg-pit:
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Level 1: you can recruit warg-riders at the usual cost of 400 resources but with a new feature: they are limited to a maximum of 3 battalion BUT they have no cost of population. I will explain you why below.
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Level 2: now you can also recruit warg-archers at the cost of 500 resources with the same feature of the warg-riders: limited battalions but no population. The warg-archers can be upgraded with heavy armor and banner carriers. Also we can elaborate a new ability for them.
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Level 3: as usual.
I always feel warg-riders/archers as a distrurbing and harassing cavalry (as we seen in the movies for example) that Saruman use to surprice and ambush the enemy rather than mighty cavalry to use in late game. Personally i have never created an "army" of warg but usually i prefer to recruit 3-4 battalions leaded by Sharku to kill enemy archers and infantry and more than anything else to destroy siege weapons. (usually the final goal (late game) of the isengard player is to create a totally upgraded uruk army)
Without the limitation of population you can easily recruit them from the beginning and use them to scout and ambush the enemy units. Specifically regarding warg-archers i like them and it's a pity if they are totally removed from the game. They could easily play the role of light and quick archer in contrast to the more heavy uruk crossbowman
Let me know what do you think on the matter
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#1
von
Odysseus
am 02 Mai, 2017 20:44
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Could be interesting. I like the limited approach to them, and I also think it would be nice for an evil faction to have ranged cavalry in some shape or form.
Originally, I thought ranged cavalry were going to be unique to Rohan, but then Mirkwood Elk Riders were introduced and the trend was broken, so I guess it wouldn't matter much.
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#2
von
Lord Aytugar
am 02 Mai, 2017 20:45
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I respect the idea but i do not agree with you. The existence of warg archers is not necessary. Isengard cavalry unit is not known as good at archery. In my opinion they needed to remove from the game, i see the new spellbook is the best solution for it. Otherwise i expect Lindon horse-archers to add to Imladris, but this would be op for them. The only cavalry archer unit in the game is Rohirrim Archers and that gives the uniqeness to Rohan which fits perfect for them.
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#3
von
Julio229
am 02 Mai, 2017 20:58
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I really like this idea, making them limited but cost no command points would make them seem more of an auxiliary force, like they actually were (I don't use them very often, but this would make me probably use them more). I also really like having Warg Archers still in the game, to give Isengard something like their counterpart (Rohan) has.
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#4
von
Walküre
am 02 Mai, 2017 21:10
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I also really like having Warg Archers still in the game, to give Isengard something like their counterpart (Rohan) has.
I really fancy this nemesis/mirror-type argument. Moreover, I can't personally see any defect in the concept, were it to become a reality.
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#5
von
Odysseus
am 02 Mai, 2017 21:20
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The only cavalry archer unit in the game is Rohirrim Archers and that gives the uniqeness to Rohan which fits perfect for them.
Unfortunately, you are mistaken. Mirkwood has access to ranged cavalry in the form of Elk Riders, so Rohan is not the only one. I pointed that out in my earlier comment.
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#6
von
AulëTheSmith
am 03 Mai, 2017 00:26
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I really like this idea, making them limited but cost no command points would make them seem more of an auxiliary force, like they actually were
That's exactly the point of my concept
: they are an auxiliary force, meant to be a support rather than a final weapon (like totally upgraded uruk). Also in the movie we seen a few of them facing Theoden before the arriving on helms deep.
About archers as odysseus stated :
it would be nice for an evil faction to have ranged cavalry in some shape or form
Isengard is the only evil faction in which we can implement such type of unit. As he said there are two faction on good-side with ranged cavalry so there is no more uniqueness
.
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#7
von
kreso
am 03 Mai, 2017 00:38
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+1 for main idea. Really like that concept of no cp cost. I dont have warg achers thier rolle in game, wargs are for harassing and warg archers are not so good at it, not good in destroying sige weapons and structures. Maybe make them really low range but they can shoot while moving, that could be good for killing monsters or chace heroes or put that as special ability for 30 sec.
We need stuff to separate good players from bad. I think let good players do good micro plays with high reward.
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#8
von
AulëTheSmith
am 03 Mai, 2017 11:05
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wargs are for harassing and warg archers are not so good at it, not good in destroying sige weapons and structures. Maybe make them really low range but they can shoot while moving, that could be good for killing monsters or chace heroes or put that as special ability for 30 sec.
Yes but there are already wildmen and warg-riders that are good respectively in destroying structures and siege
so as you wrote we can develop an ability to make them effective against some type of unit or heroes. Especially in early game.
Of course anyone as it's own feeling and opinion. For me warg archers needs some change to better define their role and then they will be perfect to be reintroduced in Edain
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#9
von
Odysseus
am 03 Mai, 2017 17:31
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One more thing, it might also be possible to introduce Warg Archers to Misty Mountains. Remember, in the vanilla game, Goblins had Spider Riders, which could switch to bow and arrow. Since spiders were removed from the Misty Mountains, and we have seen in the movies that they have access to (Gundabad) Wargs, it might then not be unthinkable that they have access to Warg Archers.
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#10
von
AulëTheSmith
am 04 Mai, 2017 01:33
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#11
von
Lord of Mordor
am 04 Mai, 2017 01:47
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We actually deliberately removed the warg archers because we felt they were out of place for some time now. Mounted archers are the pinnacle of both cavalry and archery - but neither area is actually meant to be Isengard's strong point. It makes sense for Rohan (the cavalry faction) and Lorien (the archery and mobility faction) to have them, but not Isengard.
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#12
von
Odysseus
am 04 Mai, 2017 03:37
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I suppose you make a valid point LoM. That said, I don't think it is out of the question for Warg Archers to be something that could appear in the Misty Mountains faction, and it would actually make more sense considering both OP's and LoM's comments now that I think about it
. Chances are higher that way, since the evil factions will also need ranged cavalry at some point, be that either Misty Mountains or the possible future Haradrim/Easterlings, which have made use of such a tactic.
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#13
von
Garlodur
am 04 Mai, 2017 20:37
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wargs are for harassing and warg archers are not so good at it, not good in destroying sige weapons and structures. Maybe make them really low range but they can shoot while moving, that could be good for killing monsters or chace heroes or put that as special ability for 30 sec.
Yes but there are already wildmen and warg-riders that are good respectively in destroying structures and siege so as you wrote we can develop an ability to make them effective against some type of unit or heroes. Especially in early game.
Of course anyone as it's own feeling and opinion. For me warg archers needs some change to better define their role and then they will be perfect to be reintroduced in Edain
And concerning the killing of monsters and heroes Isengard already possesses of the Uruk Scouts with their hunting arrows. Led by Ugluk and Lurtz they can be used as a devastating force against these specialties, if microed well. I really don't see a gap in roles that the Warg Archers can fill in.
I also really like having Warg Archers still in the game, to give Isengard something like their counterpart (Rohan) has.
I really fancy this nemesis/mirror-type argument. Moreover, I can't personally see any defect in the concept, were it to become a reality.
I believe this mirroring is already very present in the current Warg Riders. As Goodfella has pointed out in his videos covering Isengard they are excellent anti-cavalry
cavalry because of the higher speed in their ability. And since Rohan's cavalry-focused by intention the Warg Riders provide a great counter in the early game, also countering the steady spread of Peasants over the map.
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#14
von
AulëTheSmith
am 05 Mai, 2017 12:20
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Mounted archers are the pinnacle of both cavalry and archery - but neither area is actually meant to be Isengard's strong point.
My proposal is not meant as something which is necessary a strong point of the faction (which is one of the reason because i proposed the limited number). I also take inspiration from the cirith ungol barrack for the concept : limited but very unique units.
If you think for example at the Black-Uruk archers: they are not a strong point of the faction but with their special arrows can be very useful and are a good elitè alternative with respect to the other three type of orc-archers.
I believe this mirroring is already very present in the current Warg Riders. As Goodfella has pointed out in his videos covering Isengard they are excellent anti-cavalry cavalry because of the higher speed in their ability.
Yes this comparison is just present because warg-riders are the counter part of Rohirrim. However i suppose DieWalkure meant the specific comparison between only Archers: on one hand we have the well-trained Rohirrim archers, on the other the warg-archers which are more a "wild version" so the opposite.
In any case i respect the decision of the team and i really like the idea raised by Odysseus about the Evil-men of the East: in real historical populations we have a lot of examples about ranged cavarly from which we can take inspiration (Mongolians, Japanese(Samurai) and many others).
Off-topic : I'm quite new here and i see that this forum is full of expert and passionate people
It's a pleasure to discuss and also it's an occasion for me to learn more about Tolkien's World beside the game related things.
