[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions
Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities
AulëTheSmith:
--- Zitat von: Fredius am 13. Okt 2017, 19:50 ---Like I said in the other thread, I agree :).
--- Zitat ---I can only say one word: I agree! (wait, those are two words). I love this whole concept of him, and I especially like the "Dragon Sickness" power a lot, showing that he did not agree to be an ally for nothing.
--- Ende Zitat ---
--- Ende Zitat ---
You are welcome to the new thread, Fredius The Black Numenorean xD
Your name will be inserted in the in favour list ;)
dkbluewizard:
Aule you described things in detail and showcased your vision with superb precision. Like I said I am totally for it and this is perfect!
I know you Aule you are worthy...
TheDarkOne:
Everything seems quite fitting exept the Dragon Sickness passive ability. In my opinion, it's very controversial due to:
* Need to keep Smaug near enemy buildings to make sure the ability works against them
* Need to avoid keeping Smaug near your own buildings which is a massive backfire thing. If injured, he must flee back to regenerate and in this case your own economy may starve.
* From what I understood Smaug is mid,~far mid, late game hero. Having such an effect upon economical structures may be almost irrelevant by that time.
* This ability forces Smaug to be close to enemy encampment which threatens him greatly if the enemy has mass archers. Too wide radius can be simply OP. So this is a balance issue as well as gameplay problem.
Misty Mountains faction has a wide choice of units and spells of stealing resources or eco disruption at it's disposal. Let's not forget about that. Let Smaug be who he is, a huge mass slayer monstrocity. Also, having almost ALL units in this faction who can steal or affect an economy can be sick. I like your concept but I don't like the idea of Smaug being an all-rounder as well as I don't like this ability. However, I may suggest something here, because as I don't agree, there must be some kind of alternative.
As the ability was likely based on the themes of his greed and the desolation he makes, it's not all about desolation and death. It's likely more Khamul's thing. Smaug just makes everyone leave the place, acting as a threatening but sleeping force inside someone's domain. So he may still retain his eco structure affecting properties by having an ability, for example, like digging himself into an enemy eco or another outer building, reducing any income to 0 or disabling it's all functions and increasing the strength of all YOUR units around it as well as debuffing enemy units around. Or he can dig himself into your own tunnel to act as a debuffing force (if such an eco structure can be built on an outer settlement).
In short, I am for your whole concept excluding something mentioned above.
AulëTheSmith:
--- Zitat von: TheDarkOne am 14. Okt 2017, 22:50 ---Everything seems quite fitting exept the Dragon Sickness passive ability. In my opinion, it's very controversial due to:
* Need to keep Smaug near enemy buildings to make sure the ability works against them
* Need to avoid keeping Smaug near your own buildings which is a massive backfire thing. If injured, he must flee back to regenerate and in this case your own economy may starve.
* From what I understood Smaug is mid,~far mid, late game hero. Having such an effect upon economical structures may be almost irrelevant by that time.
* This ability forces Smaug to be close to enemy encampment which threatens him greatly if the enemy has mass archers. Too wide radius can be simply OP. So this is a balance issue as well as gameplay problem.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Hi TheDarkOne;
First of all, welcome to the discussion and thank you to have forwared your opinion here :) :).
An important note,i'm sorry if it is not clearly written: the ability is meant to work only when Smaug is on the ground (i think is more logical that he cannot steal resources when in flight). When Smaug lands on the ground, he plunders everything around him without distinguish between enemy and allies. I think the fact that it works also against you is an important peculiarity because it captures well his careless and greedy character.
For the issue of balance, i repeat that the values can be adjusted to be punchy also in mid-late game. The right equilibrium can be found only by testing his ability ;)
--- Zitat von: TheDarkOne am 14. Okt 2017, 22:50 ---Misty Mountains faction has a wide choice of units and spells of stealing resources or eco disruption at it's disposal. Let's not forget about that. Let Smaug be who he is, a huge mass slayer monstrocity. Also, having almost ALL units in this faction who can steal or affect an economy can be sick. I like your concept but I don't like the idea of Smaug being an all-rounder as well as I don't like this ability. However, I may suggest something here, because as I don't agree, there must be some kind of alternative.
As the ability was likely based on the themes of his greed and the desolation he makes, it's not all about desolation and death. It's likely more Khamul's thing. Smaug just makes everyone leave the place, acting as a threatening but sleeping force inside someone's domain. So he may still retain his eco structure affecting properties by having an ability, for example, like digging himself into an enemy eco or another outer building, reducing any income to 0 or disabling it's all functions and increasing the strength of all YOUR units around it as well as debuffing enemy units around. Or he can dig himself into your own tunnel to act as a debuffing force (if such an eco structure can be built on an outer settlement).
--- Ende Zitat ---
As far as we know, the MM spellbook could change a lot with respect to the old versions (which are 4-5 years old by now). Above all if you take into account the new spellbooks' system ;) ( I'm talking about the old "Scavengers" ability ;))
I don't want Smaug as a troop-supporter in any case. This role doesn't fit him.
For example in 3.8.1 he could upgrade units with heavy armor: it was quite absurd in my opinion, because Smaug wouldn't give a single piece of his treasure to anyone.
Anyhow, the idea about sort of digging or, saying it better, Smaug sneaking into greats halls/great mines to steal treasures, is not out of place. Anytime i think about this aspect of him, this particular sequence from The Hobbit An Unexpected journey (my favourite among the three movies) comes to my mind:
Said that, even if we have different views on this ability, i shall put you in the in favour list, specifing that you'd like to adjust or substitute "Dragon Sickness" ;)
TheDarkOne:
--- Zitat von: AulëTheSmith am 15. Okt 2017, 01:10 ---
An important note,i'm sorry if it is not clearly written: the ability is meant to work only when Smaug is on the ground (i think is more logical that he cannot steal resources when in flight). When Smaug lands on the ground, he plunders everything around him without distinguish between enemy and allies. I think the fact that it works also against you is an important peculiarity because it captures well his careless and greedy character.
For the issue of balance, i repeat that the values can be adjusted to be punchy also in mid-late game. The right equilibrium can be found only by testing his ability ;)
--- Ende Zitat ---
Making this ability working when he is not in the air makes the ability even more controversial because we have goblin plunderers who steal resources and destroy enemy buildings to eventually replace them with MM's own. Spamming basic orc fighters will also help. Constant eco harassment is very essential. Adding such an ability to Smaug feels like a filler and also, this ability may be too weak to be in Smaug's arsenal of powers, considering his status as a badass beast. Making it better may result in it being OP and even accurate adjustments won't help it. Smaug may be greedy but he doesn't care a bit about just some rubble, a bunch of resources. He cares about something more. Much more. Mountains of gold. So making him "steal" resources from some goblin tunnels or farms in game will be really out of character. I am not even sure about him being greedy. He simply trolled half or less of dwarven kind and took what he wanted because he simply could. Keep in mind that he is far from being a mindless creature. He is wise and I think that depicting him as greedy and being somewhat blinded by that would be an understatement. He is a mightly, ancient relic of power and dignity in his own ways, who happened to not have any plot armor because of the Hobbit plot.
So, in my honest opinion, this ability depicts him again as truly psychopatic and mindlessly greedy creature which I find to be somewhat offensive, this ability seems to be just a filler, because there may be better ways to express his (oh okay) specific trait of desire for immessurable wealth as well as having a faction, which in 2/3 of itself is forged and specialized entirely for plundering. Remember about other heroes who already may possess some abilities targeting an enemy's eco.
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