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Autor Thema: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion  (Gelesen 443 mal)

RagingRemo

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Let's talk about the new spellbooks that will be added in Edain 4.5. It was a great idea to finally change the spellbooks. Like this it is more refined how factions work. And me and my playgroup love this.

But, there is still room for change. For instance, I see that a lot of faction kept their old powers, especially their level 10 powers. And almost every heal was removed. I personally liked the heal change, but there are some arguments against this change. Let's say you are doing a free for all with three to four players. One of these players is going to win more battles and therefore gain more spellbookpowers. So you and the other players are going to team up against this threat. But there is one problem. The player you are going to focus, that player has one mass destruction level 10 ability. Let's take Army of the Dead as an example. So you're going to have a massive battle against him, and we as a playgroup don't backstab often. So the battle begins, and he uses Army of the Dead, everything dies and his army is still in good shape. And what's more, now he's got a second level 10 ability; another army destroyer (aka Rohan spawn).

Now let's suppose that the Dwarven player picked up the Gandalf power in one of those battles. The next battle that will be pitched, will be a massive win for him, for he has got an early army destroy power. So your playing as Gondor or Rohan, with your infantry and archers all clumped up, and he uses the Gandalf power. All you can do is go into defensive stance, and hope you won't lose everything, those units that survive the onslaught will be 1 hit away from death, that's an easy fight for the Dwarves. The problem here is, is that there used to be one way to atleast ameliorate the battle, and that is with a heal. A most moderate heal at best, will put your on-now-deathsdoor units to half or quarterhalve hp, pushing the scale atleast a little bit less in the Dwarves' favor.

Because the Dwarves used this power, and got a lot of kills with it, they now got even more powerpoints, to exacerbate the now inbalanced battle. All you can hope for at this stage of the game, is to get enough powerpoints to kill his now heavily experienced units and get a blankslate. And now let's suppose you survive long enough to get the Army of the Dead, (since picking Rohan over the Dead is a foolish thing to do) you destroy his army, since that's what it does, and since he's got no heal too, you'll destroy it almost entirely. Now you both got no army to speak of, and you're at point one, but now you're both anxious of getting destroyed by eachothers powers. Oh, and let's not forget that the Earthquake power that destroys your entire base, especially if your playing as Rohan with all its 1000hp buildings ;).

EDIT: Oh and please, please, DO NOT make Lothlorien ANY better, I know you have not revealed it's spellbook yet, but just don't make it too strong.

1. Lothlorien has too many stuns.

2. The Mirkwood Palaceguards are dumb. Heroes, die instantly. Cavalry, die before they make contact. Infantry, don't do any damage. The Mirkwood building itself has too much health, practically has a Call the Horde, and makes boatload of money.

3. Speaking of money, there is an upgrade in the sanctuary building which instantly upgrades every building in your base to level 3 for only a small 1500 amount of gold.

4. Galadriel's basic attacks are way too strong, they do so much damage to units and buildings. "But, you can just kill her because she is squishy." No you cannot, you have like 9 stuns in your faction.

5. By the way, Haldir's stun ability lasts for 30 seconds, with a extremely short cooldown with a large radius.

6. Speaking of heroes, you've got the most of them.

7. Also to top it all of, the faction is bugged. You can get past the commandpoints cap by simply buying a lot of pantries.

And I have just started...
« Letzte Änderung: 11. Jul 2018, 13:13 von RagingRemo »

Jeroen1233

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #1 am: 10. Jul 2018, 22:27 »
Now let's look at the Spellbook changes with a critical eye. I am not sure about the changed level 10 ability of Imladris (the on with the barracks and upgraded units), but we'll see I guess. But the Dwarves need change. Gandalf is OP. Period. Earthquake is not fun. Period. The Citadel level 10 is boring. Period. It's just an Undermine with loads of catapults. Beorn is more expensive than Gandalf?? Wtf. AND RUNES TOO? AND THEY BUFFED HIM TOO WITH A STUN BAHAHAHAHA!

Rohan got even more heroes now.
Isengard is still a fricking joke. Isengard was arguably in the most need of positive change, which they did not recieve. They are still very much the same in the grand scheme of things.

Mordor looks very good, I am very content with it, altough I don't really think the orc oversiers power will have a lot of influance on the game, but we'll see.

Okay, okay, let's now address the elephant in the room..: Gondor!
Poor oh poor fiefdoms. You had such prominence, but alas. You were nerfed a year ago, and now you are nerfed even more. I loved you, and I love your memory, but your dead now. Moved to the third row, out of the way, GOING TOWARDS ROHAN (whilst every player will rush AotD) I will totally ignore you. You were a viably strat, but now you are just weak, like you have been the past year.

Say you build the darn tower. Your playing on 1000 gold start, everyone is starting with a barracks and outside farms, and you smack down 500 of your 1000 into a tower that gives a random unit every 3 minutes. If you do this, you cant get a farm there with pantries or money upgrades, so now you have a tower, which spawns units. Whilst you get no income, and you got no commandpoints to field the spawned units. This is the definition of a conundrum. I suggest some change. Make it so that either the building makes money or gives you a flat pantry upgrade or something of the sort (or money for every unit that spawns, because they bring gold to fund the war). Also instead of getting 1 unit randomly, maybe make it so that I can choose which one will show up first.

AotD (army of the dead) is OP. You get it, you use it, you kill your enemy, you get another 10 points. And potentially win the game, and if you do not, you now have the Rohan spawn, and will win the next battle because of it, and then you win the game. This is how it goes. There is zero strategy in it. It is just click-to-spawn-to-win. Change it. Please change it. It is not balanced. I get that it is iconic, but make it less unfair.

-Mandos-

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #2 am: 10. Jul 2018, 22:32 »
Regarding the snowbally character of spellbooks: I think there was a system in place in older versions that summoned units and direct damage spells do not generate spell points when killing units. If i'm not mistaken and this is impossible to implement it might be a good idea to (re-)add this :)
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

RagingRemo

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #3 am: 11. Jul 2018, 01:15 »
That's exactly what I mean, this would solve a lot of snowballing problems!

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #4 am: 12. Jul 2018, 17:22 »
Thanks for your feedback, RagingRemo. It seems that a lot of your points should be part of the balance discussion (especially the Lorien part^^), but let's discuss it here for now.
If you encounter summons like Gandalf or the Army of the Dead, the key is splitting up your units. That can be a bit difficult if you move around in one big clump, but still not impossible: hitting "R" after you select the units that are blobbed up will automatically make them run away in different directions. That way, Gandalf's dragon for example can only hit one or two batallions, not your entire army. If you do manage to split up your army nicely, you can even try and focus down Gandalf with your own heroes - he is very weak in direct combat and will net you a lot of experience on your heroes.

Army of the Dead is more difficult, of course, because you should never ever fight them (unless you're Gondor and Gandalf can unleash a Word of Power [ugly]). Still, if you pay attention you can mitigate the damage. The AotD is neither as strong nor as fast as it was in previous versions, meaning your enemy will want to place the summon behind your army, making it harder for you to run away. Watch your flanks! Splitting is, again, your best friend - it means that your opponent has to choose which parts of your army he wants to pursue. It will also put more distance between the AotD and yourself, and considering the short duration of their summon you can save a lot of your soldiers if you're quick to react.

It is fully intended for spells that cost six or even ten spellpoints to be very strong. It takes very long to get up to those spells, and their recharge time is very, very long. They are supposed to kill stuff and have a lot of impact. The important thing is: It still depends on you how devastating the use of these spells really is. Yes, it can easily happen that the AotD is summoned in your back because you didn't see it coming, you can't react fast enough and you lose most of your army. What can also happen is that you don't have all your units in one place, your main army is already pre-split, and as soon as you hear the summoning sound you run as fast as you can, losing only few units. You quickly rebuild those and fight again, and this time you can use your spells, giving you a massive advantage because your opponent just wasted his. These expensive spells are designed in a way that they can turn the battle if used correctly. Knowing how to use them and how to play against or around them is incredibly important.

Snowballing is a big issue in Edain, I completely agree with you on that. I don't know for sure if what Mandos proposed is technically possible, but it sounds like a great idea.



And Jeroen, let me give you a bit of advice: Rants like yours will not lead to you being taken seriously, being calm and putting up arguments will. I personally am very happy to talk about balance, I'm sure others are as well, but keep it civil. The cost of spellbook powers is subject to change once their in the beta (in Gandalf's case, it was increased), Isengard's spellbook is much stronger in 4.5 than it was before, and fiefdoms will be viable as well. Be patient for a bit longer and you'll see ;)
Other than that, welcome to the Modding Union.

RagingRemo

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #5 am: 12. Jul 2018, 20:09 »
Thank you for your responce, but I have some questions regarding Gandalf summon and the removed heals.

Reacting to the Gandalf's summon by splitting up your army is no longer possible, since Gandalf recieved a stun upon summoning, as was stated in the dwarven spellbook update. I don't know if this change was already reverted but if it isn't that would be a problem.

And about the removed heals; heals were great responces to mass destruction spells. Now that the heals are removed, these destruction spells become even more powerful. Don't get me wrong, I like the change. But I think something has to make up for it.

I'm happy to hear Lothlorien gets taken seriously, and I do agree with some of your arguments regarding AotD. I just hope you won't get any powerpoints from it. (Like Eomer's level 10 cavalry charge)

I didn't mention Denetor in my previous comment, but I suppose he gets nerfed, right? I mean he is way to cheap and safe for what he does. I simply hate the fact that you can summon his units next to their archers, and beat them up way too easily.

EDIT: Oh and now we are at it, I would also like to discuss cavalry. What do you guys think about cavalry? In my perspective, as a Rohan main, think that they are weak. Every time I make them, I get dissapointed. I mean, I get that spears are the logical counter to them, but I think you've gotten too extreme with it. So extreme that cavalry is useless at this point.(in battles at least, they can be good at backdooring, but that is boring)

Ita very simple right, you have an army and within that army you have like 2-4 spear hordes wandering around. Usally they are elites too. Think about it, almost every faction has elite spears. Lothlorien has the mirkwood ones, Gondor has tower guards, Angmar's elite spears, Mordor's Cirith Ungul spears, and even Rohan with their Javalins.

(Speaking of javalins, they are bugged. They won't attack enemies automaticly, only when assigned manually. Which makes them unviable.)
« Letzte Änderung: 12. Jul 2018, 21:28 von Walküre »

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #6 am: 12. Jul 2018, 20:47 »
The stun doesn't last very long, and Gandalf will not be able to use his abilities in these first few seconds to prevent that very problem.

It's true that removing the heal from some spellbooks may have indirectly buffed mass slayers, but I don't think it is too big of an issue, at least it wasn't too big of an issue for me while playtesting. Wells are still dirt cheap and even though they don't heal immediately, they do heal. The evil factions never had a heal in their spellbook and they did just fine because they had other advantages going for them. The removal of the heal spell allowed us to give each faction something more unique, and I think they can make up for this increased vulnerability to mass slayers.

Denethor will receive some adjustments, but as always, feel free to discuss him in greater detail and make suggestions over in Gondor's balance section. :)

Walküre

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #7 am: 12. Jul 2018, 21:35 »
Just a general note (reminder) for new users: double posts are not allowed in this board, unless 24 hours have passed since the first comment. If you wish to add more to the points of a previous post, you just need to use the edit option and modify your comment; it's more than welcome to expand or change things.

Order ensures clarity and a fine readable forum. Thank you :)

Mogat

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Re: Edain 4.5 spellbook and other balancing discussion
« Antwort #8 am: 12. Jul 2018, 21:59 »
1. you are right, the heal used to counter every other spell

2. cavalry is way to strong atm.


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