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Autor Thema: Balrog in goblin faction  (Gelesen 380 mal)

Malhakai

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Balrog in goblin faction
« am: 27. Mai 2019, 18:01 »
Good day fellow fans,

I have been reading through the threads from edain about the upcoming goblin faction, as well as through various threads by fans about either for or against the inclusion of a permanent Balrog hero.

Personally I was disappointed to see that the Balrog is not a permanent hero of the goblin faction, especially since moria is the central/main base of the goblins - I felt it was fitting for the Balrog to be their central hero. I understand that the Balrog is extremely strong, which appears to be why most do not favour him as a permanent hero.

I have always disliked how the Balrog expires/dies after a period of time, when in the book he would be sleeping.

I was thinking of a design, that allowed him to be a permanent addition to the goblin faction, without being nerfed or making the goblins extremely over powered. What if the goblins received a power that allowed a dwarven moria hall (or perhaps 4 pillars like in Khazad Dum) to be summoned to a location. This location could only be a certain distance away from the central moria base (like how in bfme 2 walls had a maximum distance they could be built). These pillars would be indestructible, but summoned the Balrog to roam/patrol around the pillars in a medium radius. If the Balrog is killed, then the pillars are also destroyed. The Balrog himself would be hostile to all units, similar to how Sharku's summoned warg is hostile to all. All units in the vicinity of the Balrog would also have their damage and armour reduced, similar to Galadriel's debuff aura when she takes the ring. Only 1 Khazad Dum Pillars could be summoned at a time, like the Dwarven Citadel. I am not sure on how the mechanics of modding function, but I also thought that perhaps the Khazad Dum pillars could have a sort of tunnel/crack/pit in the center that the Balrog would roam into. So at first glance, just the Pillars are visible, but when approaching the Balrog would come out of the pit to attack, roam around the pillars, and return to the pit to slumber. This would also prevent the Balrog from dying to arrow fire out of range of his roaming path - meaning that it would take causalities and effort to slay him.

I have attempted to capture the concept of the Balrog in this power - although he lived in Moria with the goblins, they were not exactly allies - more so just living in the same location. He appeared hostile to all, which is why the goblins retreated when he roamed the halls. He did not venture out into Middle Earth, instead made Moria his home, so it makes sense I feel that he should not be able to venture all over the map. He was a terrifying presence to behold, so debuffing other 'lesser' beings I thought was fitting. The Balrog also slumbered for majority of the third age, so I liked the idea of him 'retreating' to the pit.

I felt that this would allow an immersive play style, allowing players to feel like they truly are in Moria - having to avoid the Balrog as he has a mind of his own in his radius. It could allow the Balrog to be summoned to a narrow location, to prevent all players from utilizing that location easily. This way the Balrog could retain his current stats and abilities, and he could use them randomly too. It would mainly act as an immersive power for the goblins, and an added defensive layer to a target location. It could not be placed too close to any players base, but create a sort of forward advance point, or a way to defend a certain location from all players. 

Apologies for this idea not being as well layed out as others. Just wished to share my 2 cents. :-)
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Mai 2019, 18:27 von FG15 »

FG15

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #1 am: 27. Mai 2019, 18:29 »
That sounds quite interesting.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #2 am: 29. Mai 2019, 10:53 »
Good day fellow fans,

I have been reading through the threads from edain about the upcoming goblin faction, as well as through various threads by fans about either for or against the inclusion of a permanent Balrog hero.

Personally I was disappointed to see that the Balrog is not a permanent hero of the goblin faction, especially since moria is the central/main base of the goblins - I felt it was fitting for the Balrog to be their central hero. I understand that the Balrog is extremely strong, which appears to be why most do not favour him as a permanent hero.

I have always disliked how the Balrog expires/dies after a period of time, when in the book he would be sleeping.

I was thinking of a design, that allowed him to be a permanent addition to the goblin faction, without being nerfed or making the goblins extremely over powered. What if the goblins received a power that allowed a dwarven moria hall (or perhaps 4 pillars like in Khazad Dum) to be summoned to a location. This location could only be a certain distance away from the central moria base (like how in bfme 2 walls had a maximum distance they could be built). These pillars would be indestructible, but summoned the Balrog to roam/patrol around the pillars in a medium radius. If the Balrog is killed, then the pillars are also destroyed. The Balrog himself would be hostile to all units, similar to how Sharku's summoned warg is hostile to all. All units in the vicinity of the Balrog would also have their damage and armour reduced, similar to Galadriel's debuff aura when she takes the ring. Only 1 Khazad Dum Pillars could be summoned at a time, like the Dwarven Citadel. I am not sure on how the mechanics of modding function, but I also thought that perhaps the Khazad Dum pillars could have a sort of tunnel/crack/pit in the center that the Balrog would roam into. So at first glance, just the Pillars are visible, but when approaching the Balrog would come out of the pit to attack, roam around the pillars, and return to the pit to slumber. This would also prevent the Balrog from dying to arrow fire out of range of his roaming path - meaning that it would take causalities and effort to slay him.

I have attempted to capture the concept of the Balrog in this power - although he lived in Moria with the goblins, they were not exactly allies - more so just living in the same location. He appeared hostile to all, which is why the goblins retreated when he roamed the halls. He did not venture out into Middle Earth, instead made Moria his home, so it makes sense I feel that he should not be able to venture all over the map. He was a terrifying presence to behold, so debuffing other 'lesser' beings I thought was fitting. The Balrog also slumbered for majority of the third age, so I liked the idea of him 'retreating' to the pit.

I felt that this would allow an immersive play style, allowing players to feel like they truly are in Moria - having to avoid the Balrog as he has a mind of his own in his radius. It could allow the Balrog to be summoned to a narrow location, to prevent all players from utilizing that location easily. This way the Balrog could retain his current stats and abilities, and he could use them randomly too. It would mainly act as an immersive power for the goblins, and an added defensive layer to a target location. It could not be placed too close to any players base, but create a sort of forward advance point, or a way to defend a certain location from all players. 

Apologies for this idea not being as well layed out as others. Just wished to share my 2 cents. :-)
You have my absolute favor on this one! I mentioned a similar way of neutral Balrog on Discord server, but my idea was to summon the balrog as he is now but he'd be neutral. But now reading through your concept i like this one better. Balrog is something that everyone fears, even goblins and it would only be fitting if he'd be neutral to everyone. This would be very nice and the goblin player would need to use different strategy (which this mod is quite good at - different strategies for each faction, heroes and unit types). Good luck with the concept to be included in 4.5. I like it.

)-(albarad

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #3 am: 30. Mai 2019, 23:08 »
You have my favor too. Sounds pretty nice. The cave would have to be pretty huge, but something as big as mirkwood fortress could probably big enough. He could lay down while sleeping as he does when disappearing normally and have a huge defense bonus, since his wings surround his body. Also he could also be surrounded by smoke that disguises him while sleeping. This way it would be easier to let him disappear from the battlefield than letting him really disappear for a while (which would probably look a bit odd).
The Lannisters send their regards!

Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #4 am: 3. Jun 2019, 16:05 »
The cave would have to be pretty huge, but something as big as mirkwood fortress could probably big enough. He could lay down while sleeping as he does when disappearing normally and have a huge defense bonus, since his wings surround his body. Also he could also be surrounded by smoke that disguises him while sleeping. This way it would be easier to let him disappear from the battlefield than letting him really disappear for a while (which would probably look a bit odd).

I was thinking of a downward slope tunnel that he would walk into, (like the tunnels in LoTR Third Age when the main character fights the first goblin chieftain), opposed to a tall structure like the Mirkwood outpost. I think the Khazad Dum pillars should be the highest point of the structure - however I do love your idea of smoke rising up to hide the Balrog. Perhaps in the middle of the pillars could just be smoke rising, that the Balrog cannot be seen in? The only reason to not have him permanently patrolling is to avoid him easily being killed by arrows0.

I am happy that others are liking this idea :-)

)-(albarad

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #5 am: 3. Jun 2019, 17:01 »
Well I had my problems with imagining such a huge, glowing beast as the Balrog just disappear in a tunnel. It does fit to small units and even a dwarven chariot to disappear in a tunnel, but it could be difficult to not just let it seem like the Balrog just disappears when being half into that tunnel. Thats why I came up with this idea.
Although he could be hidden with some smoke when entering the building, so he would not teleport but disappear in smoke when entering the tunnel.

But probably I don't know whats possible for the Edain team to realize and what isn't, so that doesn't have so much importance for me since I really the suggestion.
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-Mandos-

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #6 am: 3. Jun 2019, 19:01 »
Something to consider when talking about the Balrog is that he is extremely taxing for the computer and leads to more lags and a slower game. When he is on the field for only a short time that normally goes unnoticed, but if he were to stay permanently visible it would probably lead to a lower performance of the game.
Nonetheless, I really like the idea of a Balrog cave, but a way to hide its disappearance for longer times is probably necessary. Maybe it could also be linked with one of the spells for the goblins? Like the defensive 10-cost spell could make him controllable to defend the base (if its possible to limit the movement range of a single character?) or, whats more probable, link it with an offensive spell?
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #7 am: 3. Jun 2019, 21:19 »
Something to consider when talking about the Balrog is that he is extremely taxing for the computer and leads to more lags and a slower game. When he is on the field for only a short time that normally goes unnoticed, but if he were to stay permanently visible it would probably lead to a lower performance of the game.
Nonetheless, I really like the idea of a Balrog cave, but a way to hide its disappearance for longer times is probably necessary. Maybe it could also be linked with one of the spells for the goblins? Like the defensive 10-cost spell could make him controllable to defend the base (if its possible to limit the movement range of a single character?) or, whats more probable, link it with an offensive spell?

I am really not sure what is possible to mod, and what is not. If this idea/concept becomes popular and the team wish to implement it, I am sure they will know what they can do and how to improve it to ensure the game runs smoothly. I am only a very novice modder, such as altering unit stats/hero availability etc. I really have no idea how hard something like this would be. Just thought of an idea and wished to share it :-)

I would think that this would be a top tier spell, perhaps the top tier defensive spell of the goblins (as edain are customizing faction spell books into offensive and defensive). This idea was an alternative to just summoning the Balrog at any location for a duration, so the offensive top tier spell and central spell would be available for more goblin specific spells instead.

Gnomi

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #8 am: 3. Jun 2019, 21:45 »
Having a permanent Balrog is something very difficult for multiple reasons.
One of the most important ones is what Mandos said:
A Balrog alone is basically as taxing than a full army.
Just imagine a 4-player game with 4 times Mordor (as they are also a spam faction) and all of them are spamming Orcs. Everyone who was in such a game knows that the game will extremly slow down. Now imagine that in LG every player has this spell and uses it - suddenly you don't just have 4 spam factions, but basically the same as 8 factions spamming troups all the time. This will lead to a lot of game crashes.
By having the Balrog as a "small time summon", he will slow down the game only very little and even if all 4 players can summon a balrog - it will most likely not be at the same time and even then, it will just be a very small tiem period.



What does this mean?
A permanent Balrog (or long time summon) will always be tricky, not because we don't want it, but because it will cause massive technical problems.

Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #9 am: 11. Jun 2019, 19:39 »
That is obviously something to take into consideration, and I am sure others would know better what the game can handle and what it cannot. Having the Balrog 'vanish' into the pit or smoke would lessen his presence. I just wanted to voice a suggestion :-)

In response though, the same thing could be said for 8 players spamming only cavalry, or only archers, all powers etc. The game will always slow down or potentially crash when a lot is happening at once. In game you can set the command limit to almost unlimited, that feature is available for everyone in every game. Imagine 8 players with unlimited units..... these worst case scenarios are vast, but we should not avoid creating the game world the best it can be simply because a minority of players will abuse the system and 'break' the game causing it to run slowly or crash.

The Balrog is only permanent while the opponent forgoes killing it in its set location. I personally only play against the computer, not other players. When I create a game, I only create a game that is 'realistic' for Middle Earth. So I'd most likely be Dwarves or Lorien VS Goblins, rather than Rohan VS Goblins etc.

Gnomi

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #10 am: 11. Jun 2019, 20:16 »
Zitat
I just wanted to voice a suggestion :-)

Nothing against giving suggestions. xD It's just part of being on a mdoding team that you always try to see the problems.^^ So if I'm sceptical and pessimistic: Don't be hurt by it, it's just part of my job and it's better to look at all the downsides of a concept before it gets integrated, than having done a lot of work for a not working concept. [ugly] Also a lot of concepts look really good in the beginning, but have some flaws in special scenarios. (I remember concepts which are changed more than 10 times, because every time someone noticed some major flaws.... some of our intern concepts never managed to get in the mod, as they were good in theory, but there were huge technical problems^^)
I just point them out, as you can perhaps use the knowledge to make the concept better! :)

Zitat
In response though, the same thing could be said for 8 players spamming only cavalry, or only archers, all powers etc.
Yeah, but you have to look at the dimensions and the time - if all players fight with all their army, they will die and therefore the game will have time with less stress.^^
Also the Balrog is in addition to that - so basically every game with goblins would automatically be double as stressful as every other game. That is nothing nonrelevant.^^
Just because something is bad for the engine we shouldn't just add more things which are even worse for the engine.^^

Zitat
The game will always slow down or potentially crash when a lot is happening at once. In game you can set the command limit to almost unlimited, that feature is available for everyone in every game. Imagine 8 players with unlimited units..... these worst case scenarios are vast, but we should not avoid creating the game world the best it can be simply because a minority of players will abuse the system and 'break' the game causing it to run slowly or crash.
Just as a small note: We are mostly doing things for the normal mode. Things like infinite CP are for fun and people know that the mod is not made to run perfect there.

Zitat
I personally only play against the computer, not other players.


And here we have a problem:
Everything should work in SP and MP and also if we don't just fight realistic battles, but also if we fight unrealistic battles. And for MP balance is very important.
This Balrog is not balanced, it will always be way too weak. Just use one bataillon to distract it (and with knights you can do it without the balrog having a chance to attack you) and your whole army can just walk past it, which makes the Balrog basically completely useless. In MP the balrog won't look cool, most likely it would just be a bit annoying.
Another thing I am currently unsure is how the walking and "sleeping" might work. Sadly the engine gives us some restrictions here. [ugly]
1.) We can use the system of normal creeps. But here the Balrog would always walk around it.
2.) The system of the spider/wolf-defensive building. Here the units stay still... BUT here we have another problem (sigh [ugly]) The units will quite often have animation bugs, like sliding instead of working properly. The spiders are so small that you don't see it and even wolves are small enough that it is not a major problem... But if the Balrog had such a bug... everyone would notice it and it would be way less cooler immediately. Perhaps someone can fix that, but even then the Balrog would still be on the map the whole time, perhaps with less FX, but I'm unsure here.
3.)Something completely new - I have some ideas here, but I'm unsure how they work (adding scripts for the creep player and use the mine system of the dwarves. The main problem would be that the Balrog would somehow "disappear" at the end and not walk down some stairs, which looks less cool immediately, and it will probably have problems, as the Balrog is really slow and walkin out of it will take some time such that many troups will just walk past it, even before he can attack.) But having a problem based on a non-existant system (we don't know if this can be created) is always a bit tricky, as the practicability will not depend on how good the system is, but on luck.^^

Another problem is:
What will stop me from just placing the Balrog directly in front of the enemy base? We would need some minimal distance between the summon and every fortress/castle. And some maps are so small that the Balrog either needs a very little radius (which will cause problems, as he can be killed by archers or everyone can just run past it) or it will not be usable on some maps. That will also need some considerations.^^

Also a lot of people want to actually use the balrog and not just see it. That's why a lot of people want to have the balrog as a hero. They want to play with it. Having it as a creep will look cool, but never feel as satisfiable as using his fire breath to destroy an army or a fortress.^^ For those guys it would be even worse and I can also understand their points. (even though I am completely against the balrog as normal recruitable hero, but the reasoning behind that would be too much)

Again:
I don't want to destroy your idea or bad-mouth it. I just think that it is fairer if I tell you now about my concerns, while it still can be discussed and new ideas can be be build in. Every concept always has problems in the beginning, the question is always: How can they can be deleted? And therefore someone has to talk about the problems.^^

Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #11 am: 17. Jun 2019, 16:49 »
Whah! Thank-you for such an in-depth reply. It certainly sounds extremely tricky and too difficult to implement without a great amount of stress. I shall leave the modding to the professionals :-)

Gnomi

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #12 am: 17. Jun 2019, 16:57 »
Zitat
I shall leave the modding to the professionals :-)

That doesn't mean that you should not make anymore  suggestions! xD Most of our concepts are either made by people who have no idea of modding or are at least based on those ideas. Quite often we see concepts and know that they are technically not possible, but as many people seemed to like it, we try to find similar concepts, which are not exactly like the suggestion, but at least similar. (make another concept out of the same basic idea)
It is always important and nice to hear what people want in the mod! xD