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Autor Thema: Army of the Dead Replacement  (Gelesen 251 mal)

frederick

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Army of the Dead Replacement
« am: 5. Nov 2019, 18:36 »
Army of the dead replacement

I personally think that the two Army of the Dead Power that Gondor possess are not the best powers they could have, I do still have the Army of the dead incorporated to the new powers i have come up with.
King of Men (Aragorn)-Aragorn as king of both Gondor and the new rebuilt Arnor Aragorn brings the kingdoms together. This ability can be used on the Gondor Citadel, Barracks, Archery Range, and Stable.
I have two different ideas for what is will do. This allows you to buy the Arnor elite troops from their respective troop chambers, or This will give a buff to all troops bought from these troop production buildings and will allow them to heal over time(not sure about that part). For the Gondor Citadel it will allow you to summon the army of the dead around your base you can not control them, they just run around the base. I did this because they only came during Gondor's darkest hour to protect Gondor.
The White Tree of Gondor(10 power point ability)-I have not thought of a description for this if you have any ideas give me a suggestion.
You would use this power on the Citadel. It would give a defence and attack speed buff of 30% to all those inside of your base. If you have King Aragorn you can use an active ability that give the buff to all allies on the map, but the Wight Tree is its own building and if it is destroyed it gives a map wide debuff to all ally units because it symbolizes the end of Gondor.
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Nov 2019, 18:42 von frederick »

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #1 am: 7. Nov 2019, 20:15 »
First off, I welcome you to the forum :)

As regards your comprehensive proposal, I begin by saying that I do not agree with the main rationale of the showcased suggestions.

I view the Army of the Dead spell as embracing a quite peculiar category of features: those which immediately embody the own soul and atmosphere of the LOTR trilogy in the most direct way we could hope for. Similar examples would be clearly represented by the brisk sprouting of Ents in battle, the summoning of Théoden's horseman-company, Isengard's magically-induced rain, and, among the most notable ones, the coming of the Balrog.

Except for later additions, necessary adjustments, and so forth, the core of such iconic spells has more or less been kept untouched since the heydays of BFME (first title). They usually occupy the final or lower rows of the spell-book, and, thanks to their proper predominant position, they do ensure to link the game to the relative films almost spectacularly. In our case, the undead host's appearing marks a significant passage of the cinematographic adaptation, due to being, shortly said, as much ideal a resolution as it is a potent conclusion in equal terms, where enemies are ultimately vanquished and survivors are granted a total triumph.

Now, why should the player be deprived of such tremendous display of power (mixed with magic, lore, and film familiarity), in favour of a lessened design? Furthermore, what you propose to replace the current tier-4 concept with, is really not enough to make me sway towards thinking about a change. While it is absolutely right that the White Tree entails an amazing story and numerous references on its own, do you not believe that 'mere' boosts or enhancements would sound as a pretty poor plan for a final spell? Take notice, additionally, that doing away with the phantom-army will probably have implications for the holistic disposition of the faction's spell-tree: a more offensive logic would necessarily have to be adopted, in case we wanted other ideas to take that pre-eminent spot in the game's hierarchy.

Hence, I would maybe advise you to present a fitting alternative for a highly-effective/situational concept. The state being so, I do not think the White Tree might ever convey the just amount of epic characterisation (not how the Oathbreakers do, leastways).

frederick

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #2 am: 8. Nov 2019, 00:30 »
Thanks, for the Feedback, though I personally believe that if they want to experience the nostalgia of the first game they should play the first game. As for the Wight Tree not being good enough for a 10th level spell, the Idea is similar to that of the Angmar 10th level spell but with it own unique features. Maybe I made the buff worst then the angmar one but I wanted it to be better at different things, so many buff it a little more.

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #3 am: 8. Nov 2019, 01:05 »
And I thank you for your response as well :)

With 'iconic feeling', I mean that a couple of very old concepts are not so easy to be simply ditched and replaced by more structured ones. This occurs very often when having to work on ultimate spells (on the offensive branch of the spell-book, by the way): we are talking about spells that are inevitably designed and devised to impact the game profoundly, by means of considerably destructive effects. It's a kind of natural predisposition of theirs that we might find it hard to circumvent or get past, as if it were nothing.

It's true that Edain has gone incredible lengths to give life to unique ideas, but the root of many of them has its essence in the original games (which the modification was fashioned on, after all). If we change the current spell, the own significance of undead troops would be halved, because of them either being tied to one sole hero or serving a specific structure.

If you desire to know my personal thought, coming from someone who has always advocated for creativity and uniqueness, I strongly believe that some boundaries cannot be passed over, and that retaining a link with the past will do nothing else but make the game even richer.

Speaking about the precise spell at issue, the Edain Mod has nonetheless managed to better what someone might be led to consider as a primitive solution. I find the addition of the Undead King a great touch of in-game cleverness, beside the fact that such cherry on the cake has also perfected its relative feature.

PAK

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #4 am: 8. Nov 2019, 01:23 »
I think it is very important to keep iconic spells. Bfme 1 was a very good game and I loved the Balrog and the AotD. I think Dwarven citadel from Bfme 2 is a great spell that I could not imagine getting rid of, but at some point I think it would be wise to change something as iconic as AotD if the idea is better. Obviously if people do not like the way this idea turns out, is should not be included, but people need to be able to see the improvements from new ideas and put nostalgic feelings aside, even if for a short time.

I do agree the proposed idea needs work. I would say perhaps the final spell could be centered around the general Return of the King. Aragorn returned with the AotD to defend Minas Tirith and then afterwards became King and planted the White Tree. So the spell could be both the White Tree and the AotD combined , making that spell still be about the AotD, but also incorporating the White Tree. The spell would be used on a citadel, granting the castle or camp a whit tree and giving the citadel the AotD power. The AotD could still be controlled manually, but it would have to spawn by the base, and the further they are away from the base they are, the weaker they are, symbolizing that the closer they get to Mordor, the easier it would be for Saron to corrupt them so they fade. This forces the player to use the spell as a defensive spell. Also in addition to Aragorn’s level 10 ability, he could use his power on one signal tower to promote faster fiefdom training.

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #5 am: 8. Nov 2019, 16:57 »
Even after leaving nostalgic feelings aside, as you suggested, though not viewing it a very wise of a premise, there are a number of potential issues that I see in the aforementioned change:

Starting off, we are supposed to discuss offensive, very offensive, effects, because the Army of the Dead does occupy such position in the whole scheme. On the contrary, the sheer idea of summoning the White Tree and focusing on the New King's later reign, look like a perfect foundation for a defensive/long-term spell, which is not our case (which should not be our case, I mean). The attempt to incorporate Oathbreakers into the main body of the concept, neither adds value to it, nor does it really resolve the underlying problem: we need an effective (game-changing, hopefully) summoning, that functions in the simplest way possible (bear in mind that time is already a quite impairing of a constraint). Having to cast the spell on whatsoever building, just to make use of ghosts in battle, would result in being utterly unnecessary and counter-productive (given that the phantoms' own timer does its limiting work splendidly, already).

I also advise against basing an ultimate spell on a single hero, however great or preponderant he may be, considering how Aragorn's major narrative arc is marvellously explored via his very abilities, of which his crowned self is currently a vital aspect (the last stage, effectively). Why should we stress his royal character even further? Would that not make him less unique as a single hero, if a final spell were to reiterate said qualities?

There might be another lore remark to bring to the public's attention: being the faction centred on the War of the Ring, primarily, I guess it would be improper of us to concentrate too much on peace-time events (his subsequent reign as the king of the Reunited Realms, I mean). I find some contradictions here, in spite of the fact that one may play with King Elessar, now, without the need of grander features that remind of him again.

frederick

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #6 am: 8. Nov 2019, 22:32 »
Thank you both for your suggestions. I personally think that both lvl 10 ability of Gondor are currently have some offensive traits, but I think that it would be more fitting if both instead had defensive traits since the faction is defensive. To me the Army of the Dead is either completely useless or overpowered, so to fix this problem I made them defensive to make it true to the movies since that is what it is based on. I fit were to be true to the books then I think it would have to do with the fiefdoms. Both of these options I believe would not be fit for and 10 powerpoint ability, so could be incorporated in to king Elessar to replace his AofD witch is a bad power in my eyes, to make him a more desirable hero.
(I am sorry if there is grammatical errors).

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #7 am: 9. Nov 2019, 23:24 »
Grouping up every reference to the undead army into a single heroic ability, could be a start, if not that said ability would consequently have to acquire even greater importance in the game and satisfy players' expectations. That is, it would likely break a few balance boundaries here and there; it's not my major objection, though.

What worries me a little, is the altering of Aragorn's role. Summoning a row of phantoms, as far as I remember, is meant to trap the enemy hero inside a deadly perimeter and let Isildur's Heir finish him or her off with ease. I don't think that many in the community would cherish the idea of entrusting one of Gondor's best characters with a more lethal version of an already-powerful concept. Besides, willingly or unwillingly, disruptions of established mechanics remain a reality to face.

frederick

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Re: Army of the Dead Replacement
« Antwort #8 am: 10. Nov 2019, 14:57 »
Thank for your feedback. For the balancing issue I do see the problems that might happen and need help to fix this problem. As for Aragorn's AofD I had a conversation on the discord about Aragon's AofD ability a while back, and I tested it and so did other people and we all agreed it was not up to par to other lvl ten abilities of other hero killers. It was really easy to walk through the circle with and army and be fine. Also if you are good at microing your heros then your heros would not end up in the circle or would get out to their respective army. If that hero is also a hero killer they could kill King Elessar faster than King Elessar (unless it is one of the bad hero killers) could kill him since he is not as good as a hero killer in that form.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Nov 2019, 15:01 von frederick »