[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

Dúrin's Bane: A reimagining for the iconic spell

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Walküre:
Before getting to the kernel of my feedback, I would firstly like to commend Julio's effort in bringing what looks like a grand-style proposal (my favourite kind of suggestions) into being. It's been a long time since we last had the chance to discuss major concepts on the forum, and interest in the Misty Mountains is gradually surging in the meantime; mine, too, and I have to say that Goblins do manage to intrigue me a great deal. Thus, I would call it a wonderful occasion for presenting ideas on the one remaining faction we're all waiting for so apprehensively.

Let me now cut through further ado and state things in plain fashion: the concept does not convince me, alas. It is not a matter of ingenious dynamics, imaginativeness, or features that I wish were more unique and therefore lived up to the standards of the modification. I take great exception to your design in very conceptual terms. In short, it is the lore and essence of it which I find myself questioning.

(My reasoning addresses, primarily, the very first post. I apologise, if I seem to have missed subsequent developments or changes involving the core of the thread.)


1. I can't really reconcile with the sheer prospect of seeing the Balrog be manipulated and then beguiled into doing a shaman's whatsoever biddings. If that were to be true, it would imply the existence of black magic that might even overwhelm a fallen angel's prowess, to the point of rendering the latter a mere puppet at the service of a cunning puppeteer. A 'dummy-Balrog' I would view as a gross misinterpretation/contradiction to be witnessed in the game, if not an evident rupture in the well-woven fabric of the lore. A clever plan, without the shadow of a doubt, though quite poor and faulted, as for what pertains to lore accuracy.

2. The shaman, per se, is the subject of my second great grievance: however delightful the conception of new heroes could ever feel, I neither see the scope, nor the need, for a sorcerer to carve out a role for himself in an already-busy scenario, which the bustling world of the Misty Mountains already is.

One of my main principles in dealing with magic, a terribly complicated theme in Tolkien's writings, is 'to give or endow with magic where it is due and possible'. This partly explains why I'm equally reluctant to accept the presence of Lore Masters in the modification, for example; and, being loth to have ulterior magical beings around, does not automatically mean that canons forbid us to toy with obscure passages or make use of our imagination to the fullest, of course, but I don't particularly relish the sight of magic being misused or misplaced. In our case, I deem it quite unbefitting to grant supernatural abilities to Orcs/Goblins, when, in my opinion, the real arcane/otherworldly character lies (should lie) very close to monstrous heroes who, by definition, defy the logic of the mundane and of the ordinary (here bespoken by regular soldiers, troops, commanders, and so forth). A calamitous winged dragon, a fiery demon, and nameless creatures inhabiting the caverns of the underworld, would perfectly fit in the whole 'magic archetype' I talked about, whereas I don't think it would be likewise for mere minions of evil, fouler forces.

Goblins themselves, furthermore, are rarely sung and given honours as an exceptionally gifted race. Most sources tend to portray the opposite, instead: dullness, weak temper, dread of the powerful, and scarce wit. Binding a Maia to one's will, as though being played as a fool, I wherefore believe would be too much of a stretch to work on.

3. I read in previous comments that another underlying goal would be to show in better manners how the infesting legions of Orcs may have interacted with Durin's Bane, inferring that a sort of hierarchy, be it covert or overt, may have existed between the two. Notwithstanding said premise, there appears to be very little of a hierarchical relationship existing within rational boundaries, in the way the current concept has been construed. It bears more resemblance to a subservient bond, at the Balrog's own expense; we could say that, for want of better words, it would be so asymmetrical an exchange, while the lore leans towards a totally different interpretation which sees the demonic entity absolutely dominant, boundless and loose from any rivalling authority across those halls.

Unlike films, the books suggest that Goblins are likely to have cooperated with Morgoth's servant in some ways, although this is never clarified by exhaustive words in any chapter that touches upon the matter. As far as I recall from my latest read, it is wildly improbable that the Balrog would seriously turn into a lethal menace for the other usurpers of the mines. Actually, if you ask me, the entire Moria arc unfolds quite differently from PJ's depiction: the very arrival of the Bane is less situational than that shown on the big screen, and he even participates in the assault that takes place in the Chamber of Records, against the Fellowship (though his true appearance is unveiled a bit later). Moreover, some lines do leave the dilemma open-ended for the reader to wonder: was the Balrog stirred by accident, or did the One Ring being in his immediate vicinity play some kind of role? In any case, deceiving the flaming beast to reap benefits and to ultimately get to control him, I consider as the wrong approach, personally speaking.

4. Unfortunately, the character whom everything gravitates around belongs to that peculiar category of iconic BFME relics that still linger in our game, for the joy of many in the community. So, we're not bound to have to face heroes of the likes of Galadriel, Smaug, or Sauron himself, who never had an established tradition in the series and are therefore extremely apt for change, iterations upon iterations. Conversely, there's a particular reason as to why Gandalf has undergone minimal variation (ability-wise), and the Balrog certainly embodies another fragment of past vestiges, dating back to the very beginning of all.

Sad that, in no way am I trying to shut the door to the slightest eventuality of his concept being overhauled and fairly adapted to 4.0 logics. What I care to point out is that, to me, there is limited room for bolder propositions, and this normally applies when including the aforementioned 'BFME gods' in the equation. As for the topic at issue, I fear the shown concept might interfere excessively and make the deadliest hero in the game less enjoyable to play with, if we take into consideration that the spell could work against who casts it in the first place (should Durin's Bane be out of control), denying, also, the player the possibility of a free, direct access to him (without having to depend on any medium).

5. Just to reconnect with my fourth consideration, there are even other community wishes not to be overlooked. Smaug had been the centre of a multitude of ideas in the last two years; Aulë's own tireless work has permitted the creation of a quite colossal concept, which aims to allow for a wiser use of the dragon, and for a system which would hopefully explore the coexistence between feral selfishness and the wicked cravings that inform the action of all Goblin-realms. Hoping to remember correctly, here one has the genuine feeling that loyalty (better, non-hostility) needs to be won via sacrifice and dear payment, because the general context is exactly one that makes it viable to experiment with neutrality, as a founding trope. Nameless Things, in addition, could, too, make for an amazing field in which to try implementing non-affiliated/faithless creatures, that would more or less function as hazards (the concept will undoubtedly have to be rethought thoroughly). Lastly, I beg to say, this is not at all about pitting proposals against each other, thus hampering or discouraging users from expressing themselves in all liberty; yet, I thought it was right to widen our gaze and look at parallel threads as well, since, at this stage, we should probably gather everything up and start envisaging an organic, coherent, and comprehensive scheme of how the faction is to result in.

Methinks, the Balrog does not need anything of the sort, apart from torching the battlefield bare of enemies, laying waste to the opponent's base, and obliterating whatever defence your opponent throws against him. That is, the epitome of a short-term ultimate spell.


I trust that each of my reflections will be taken as constructively as possible. I won't express myself in favour or against, yet. I still have to wrap my head around the matter :)

The_Necromancer0:
It's been a while since I last laid eyes upon a Walkürian Essay . Glad to see you haven't lost your touch.  xD

I'm gonna try to summarize the points quickly to make sure I didn't misunderstand any of them.

1. That a goblin be able to dupe a Maia seems unrealistic

2. The Shaman has a hero doesn't really have a niche in the already hero heavy faction of the Misty Mountains

3. Orc possessing magic is not very Lore™ accurate

4. The Balrog is subject to the Nostalgia effect

5. Don't forget Aule's Smaug idea.

I will address the points from shortest to longest explanations.

5. I'm not sure this is relevant. As far as I can see both concepts address separate parts of the faction, and could theoretically both be implemented without conflict unless I've missed something. And even if they were to have overlap I don't think suggestions are limited to a first come first serve basis. Multiple suggestions of overlapping concepts exist and have existed in the past as such I'm not sure how this part can serve as a relevant argument against this proposal.

4. That part is probably true, I wouldn't it the least bit surprised if it was, but it is in the nature of forums to create suggestions nonetheless. In addition, the Balrog original form is not completely lost thanks to the Shaman's final ability "Deal with the Dark", allowing your next summon to be the iconic balrog all love and fear to see.

3. That bit I can agree on, I expressed the same concerns when talking about the concept with Julio but this is not a major obstacle as the abilities which use magic (currently only his level 7) can easily be shifted to use more traditional approaches such as the one I suggested in my first reply if need be. At this stage of a concept, many things are up to debate, only the core components of the concept are fixed, things like visual appearance, lore justification and numbers (damage, health, cooldown) are pretty much all up for debate. Of course, ideally as much of the original concept would be kept but minor modifications can be made to make it better fit with the rest of Tolkien's Legendarium.

2. This one can be a bit subjective as to what defines a hero-heavy faction. so far we have seen 6 heroes for the Misty Mountains: Bolg, Smaug, The Three Trolls, The Hunter, The Great Goblin and the Golbin Chieftain. Seven if take into consideration that the Misty Mountains will most likely need a scout. Looking at it this is a rather below-average number of heroes considering all the factions, the only other faction to have as little as 7 heroes is Isengard.

Now, of course, this isn't an argument on its own. Heroes shouldn't be added just for the sake of adding heroes, heroes need a role and they need a function. Which is why Julio added some additional functionalities to a few of the abilities and invited others to do the same if they believed that the hero needed more utility while the Balrog was on cooldown. At the moment, the primary role of the hero is to serve as a guide to the balrog while he is on the field, his secondary role as a unit interferer fits rather nicely as no other hero provides the same amount of coverage. But in the initial concept, the downtime of the Balrog is very much meant to be the weakness of the Shaman, a time where the enemy is free to hunt him before he can unleash some dark horror upon them again.

1. This is sadly the biggest lore issue with this concept, because of their stature as Maiar balrog are perfectly intelligent creatures. But the way I see it in my head is that if I was to unleash a bunch of flies to bother you then it is likely you would swat all the flies you saw until calm returned. I believe the same can be applied to some extent for the Balrog: dwarves, elves, humans, orcs, goblins, nothing but mere flies in his eyes and if they bother him he shall swat them all away indiscriminately. Sadly I cannot offer a better explanation, as far as my knowledge of Balrog goes this is a valid counterpoint.

I hope to hear more from you on the matter.

OakenShield224:
Hello everyone. I worked with Julio on part of this concept and would like to clarify a few points with regards to the response made by Walkure.

Firstly, your main argument is that the Balrog is subservient to the Goblins which couldn’t be further from the truth. With this concept, the Balrog is a force of nature at its full power that can travel the battlefield by its own path. It could attack enemy forces but it could just as easily turn against your own forces. This fits well with what we know of Durin’s Bane. If it was in charge of the orcs of Moria, would Sauron not have know about it? Would it not have interfered in the War of Dwarves and Orcs? Remember that Sauron himself sent orcs to occupy the Misty Mountains. But even if the Balrog was in charge of the goblins, would it really be so far a stretch to see it treating them badly, considering how every other Dark Lord in Middle Earth treats their servants. Would the Balrog really be that much better or would it actually be worse (considering that it was a destructive fiery spirit that was fully subservient to a nihilistic overlord)? In the books, the presence of the Balrog silenced the goblins around him and the films went further by showing the goblins fleeing in fear at the sound of the Balrog. Using a loyalty based relationship for a faction of orcs that would just as happily turn on each other than on their enemies doesn’t seem to make as much sense to me.

Moving back onto the concept itself, the Goblins aren't “controlling” the Balrog. The Shaman is using simple theatricality and deception to manipulate the Balrog into turning on the Goblins’ enemies. This could just as easily backfire on the Goblins if they happen to get in the way, fully showing that the Balrog isn’t working with them. In reality, the vanilla power (while iconic) suggests far more that the Balrog is subservient to the Goblins (i.e. the player controlling the Goblins). And if there is an argument saying that the Balrog wouldn’t be able to be deceived in such a way…well Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman were outsmarted and outmaneuvered by others at times, and they were all capable of much higher levels of manipulation (see Aragorn using the Palantir to trick Sauron into attacking Minas Tirith before he is ready or forcing him to move his forces to the Black Gate and leave Mordor open). A Balrog is arguably a simpler target for such tactics.

With regards to the iconic skillset of the Balrog, this is fully available when the player makes a temporary alliance with the Balrog with the Shaman’s level 10. As for arcane references to the Goblins, it is in no way confirmed, but there are hints from the History of Middle Earth books that some orcs such as the Great Goblin may have been fallen Maiar sprits in orc form. This could be the case for the Shaman as well. Of course, this wouldn’t be necessary if the other powers were adjusted so that they wouldn’t require magical context. Some of the other powers were changed so that they use simple deception tactics instead of magic (for example, the level 7 power). There is no reason why this couldn’t also be used for the other powers.

Lastly, with regards to your comments about the other faction concepts, I believe it is best to take each concept by its own merits and to not judge one concept in comparison to another which isn’t for the same topic. In this way, it is probably a better idea to work on concepts for subjects that are almost certainly confirmed to be in the final faction (Smaug and Durin’s Bane for example) rather than those which are far vaguer and less confirmed.
I hope I have been able to help with some of your concerns Walk  :)

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: The_Necromancer0 am 14. Feb 2020, 02:03 ---It's been a while since I last laid eyes upon a Walkürian Essay . Glad to see you haven't lost your touch.  xD
--- Ende Zitat ---

 8-)


Necro:


--- Zitat ---5. I'm not sure this is relevant. As far as I can see both concepts address separate parts of the faction, and could theoretically both be implemented without conflict unless I've missed something. And even if they were to have overlap I don't think suggestions are limited to a first come first serve basis. Multiple suggestions of overlapping concepts exist and have existed in the past as such I'm not sure how this part can serve as a relevant argument against this proposal.
--- Ende Zitat ---

You're right. My remarks on other proposals may have come off as a clumsy attempt to lump everything up a bit; I meant no such thing, of course. I do think it would be wise of us to keep our eyes wide open and focus on the bigger picture, though. I'm quite certain that the own success of the Misty Mountains faction will be, one way or the other, tied to our capacity of devising the most unique, yet consistent, general scheme; something saving both variety and solidity, because it's always been the team's main objective to capitalise on differentiation: three distinct Goblin kingdoms, sporting each its proper heroes and lore, three different styles shaping structures, weapons, and strategy, and a wide-ranging spell-book which ought to value any soul that this grand system is comprised of. Hence, this is the furthest we could get from pre-4.0 versions of the game, where the faction itself was more intended to personify the sheer chaos existing in its parts and muster all sorts of monsters in a single place.

Said that, my mentioning Smaug served to draw a comparison between the two heroes, and praise what I find a more than fitting solution to portray the topic of allegiance by accurate means. That proposal, in fact, seems to delve beautifully in the lost tales of dragons, Dwarves, and Orcs, alongside presenting to us nothing so controversial to stomach. It is the exact harmony that I wish to see here, too.


--- Zitat ---Heroes shouldn't be added just for the sake of adding heroes, heroes need a role and they need a function.
--- Ende Zitat ---

I confess that inserting wholly made-up content in such consolidated mechanics worries me far more than an aimless hero, canonical or not, might do. It is my personal view that fictional material needs, majorly, to fill in blank spaces and offer 'conceptual aid' when all other options fail. As written above, the Balrog is arguably one of the most known features ever. Nonetheless, I'm sure we'll succeed in our seeking :)


Oak:


--- Zitat ---Using a loyalty based relationship for a faction of orcs that would just as happily turn on each other than on their enemies doesn’t seem to make as much sense to me.
--- Ende Zitat ---

No, obviously. Blind fealty would be as bad a choice as going fully berserk and turning the Bane into a mere mindless pawn. Furthermore, being so indiscriminate in one's killing, as Necro suggested, would better cater for Nameless Things, which, feeding off their prehistoric state, would be quite likely not to tell apart friends from foes; if we take issue with the definition of 'friends', given the inner perfidious nature of the Orc-race, we could more accurately regard Goblins as standing by the same side of our flaming demon: the Evil. So, we do have a thin layer of affiliation, in some ways, despite it being wavering at times. I guess there is enough chance to play with this whole 'shade of grey', for, as you reminded me of, it is not a black-and-white case that we're considering. At the present time, however, all still appears to me too imbalanced from the perspective of the Maia.


--- Zitat ---Moving back onto the concept itself, the Goblins aren't “controlling” the Balrog. The Shaman is using simple theatricality and deception to manipulate the Balrog into turning on the Goblins’ enemies. This could just as easily backfire on the Goblins if they happen to get in the way, fully showing that the Balrog isn’t working with them. In reality, the vanilla power (while iconic) suggests far more that the Balrog is subservient to the Goblins (i.e. the player controlling the Goblins). And if there is an argument saying that the Balrog wouldn’t be able to be deceived in such a way…well Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman were outsmarted and outmaneuvered by others at times, and they were all capable of much higher levels of manipulation (see Aragorn using the Palantir to trick Sauron into attacking Minas Tirith before he is ready or forcing him to move his forces to the Black Gate and leave Mordor open). A Balrog is arguably a simpler target for such tactics.
--- Ende Zitat ---

I dare say that it doesn't import much, whether the shaman's manipulation is to be more of a masquerade/farce or the other way round, being my opposition to the entire masterminding motif quite stark. Let us name it which title we deem fine for the purpose, but the point stays, anyway. The Balrog is going to be tricked into obeying someone else's will, and this 'someone' pales woefully before the magnitude of an entity who is recounted to be older even than time and space, and who can easily decide to take sides during combat, albeit temporarily and not in charge of any host (which is, after all, the task of military leaders). Continuing with my reasoning, it is right to remember the very few times in which the weaker overpowered the stronger by wit or luck; it must also be noted that exceptional events, like those addressed, entail the necessary presence of the superhuman and the sublime. Namely, who, other than the mightiest Elf in the annals, could ever have bested Sauron and his snares, overcome the ferocity of a bloody werewolf, enchanted Morgoth into oblivion, and ultimately conquered the compassion of Mandos himself? This could go for Ar-Pharazôn routing Sauron's innumerable legions just by fear, the fateful duel atop Moria's summit, or even the very mission that Frodo undertook, where the forces of the Good came to be aided by a splendid conjunction of favourable happenings (the awakening of Ents, the Grey Army, the rightful Heir of Men reclaiming his throne,...). In Lúthien's case, she was the harbinger of a destiny going beyond the reach of the Valar themselves.

Now, you may realise that every protagonist being counted among the most memorable figures of Arda's history, embodies capabilities and a fate that a simple Goblin shaman could never stand a chance with. This is the argument at the root of my reply. And, I agree with Necro, when he cites this passage as the most arduous to accept; it is, in my very personal opinion, the weak belly of the holistic construction.


Set counter-arguments aside, I don't want pessimism to seep through my comments, only. I would be glad to hint at possible solutions to keep all our contributions together in the decent manner that the very thread requires.

My proposal:


--- Zitat ---Briefly, I reckon the shaman may well remain and therefore fulfil his duty: not that of a sorcerer-like shaman, but one aligning to the characteristics of an evil grand-priest. The Grand-Priest of the Goblins. That is, an uncanny 'religious' leader, much versed in the occult (though unable to perform direct magic, as we intend it by Tolkien's standards), whose main occupation will be to awake Durin's Bane from his dormant state and win his 'benevolence' through the offering of victims, as the demon's rage is hard to placate and ever longs for preys to incinerate to nothingness.

This is to say that the Balrog will become the de facto god whom Moria's Orcs worship in terror, down the gloom and darkness of the abyss. A mysterious cult, that has them be in wait for such fiery divinity to rise again, or, should we mean to add an alternative spin, that terrifies them all, and it's not uncommon for primitive religions (beliefs) to revolve around the concept of fearing the idol or deity whom its very acolytes revere and pray. Additionally, the lore of evil cults goes back a long time and furnishes us with concrete elements to refer to: the cults dedicated to Morgoth in Númenor, with sacrifice and cruel rites as its key-pillar, or the religion-like, fearful veneration that Evil Men show towards Sauron, who, by consequence, acts both as sovereign and god. In line with such precedents, the Bane might be our fell god presiding over the underworld of Moria, while I would leave it for the player to ask themselves whether the Balrog, from his side, is unconscious or not of his godly status among Goblins, or whether he, too, acts as a deity would in relation to his zealots. Nevertheless, these are questions that might increase the sense of intrigue and serve for the perfect obscure background to operate in.

The task of our grand-priest would thus consist of stirring the beast, drawing his attention, and offering sacrifices, in order to let the player assume total control of the Maia (his benevolence). The current concept already deals with the idea of appeasement and providing offers, but we have to make sure that everything inferring manipulation or deception will be jettisoned for good, together with black magic (in its more traditional connotation). Then, I add, the Bane is not going to deal damage to your forces in any case; were the player to fail to win his support, he will roam the battlefield as their non-playable ally for a while.
--- Ende Zitat ---

OakenShield224:

--- Zitat ---I dare say that it doesn't import much, whether the shaman's manipulation is to be more of a masquerade/farce or the other way round, being my opposition to the entire masterminding motif quite stark. Let us name it which title we deem fine for the purpose, but the point stays, anyway. The Balrog is going to be tricked into obeying someone else's will, and this 'someone' pales woefully before the magnitude of an entity who is recounted to be older even than time and space, and who can easily decide to take sides during combat, albeit temporarily and not in charge of any host (which is, after all, the task of military leaders).
--- Ende Zitat ---
I still believe you're missing the point a little bit. The Balrog "obeying someone else's will" is, in reality, the equivalent of the Shaman making the enemy seem like a much more appealing target. If there are goblins in that area, then the Balrog will not discriminate and will destroy them just as willingly as anyone else.


--- Zitat ---Continuing with my reasoning, it is right to remember the very few times in which the weaker overpowered the stronger by wit or luck; it must also be noted that exceptional events, like those addressed, entail the necessary presence of the superhuman and the sublime. Namely, who, other than the mightiest Elf in the annals, could ever have bested Sauron and his snares, overcome the ferocity of a bloody werewolf, enchanted Morgoth into oblivion, and ultimately conquered the compassion of Mandos himself? This could go for Ar-Pharazôn routing Sauron's innumerable legions just by fear, the fateful duel atop Moria's summit, or even the very mission that Frodo undertook, where the forces of the Good came to be aided by a splendid conjunction of favourable happenings (the awakening of Ents, the Grey Army, the rightful Heir of Men reclaiming his throne,...). In Lúthien's case, she was the harbinger of a destiny going beyond the reach of the Valar themselves.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Doesn't bringing every achievement down to divine intervention or miracles belittle them a bit? In any sense, the full victories can still be brought down to the Dark Lord's being tricked by others. Saruman was tricked by the Hobbits who brought the ents to his door. It was something as simple as Gimli's complaints that helped bring Saruman to anger and break his spell on the Rohirrim. Sauron attacked Minas Tirith/The Black Gate because Aragorn showed himself in the Palantir. The whole War of the Ring was Gandalf and Aragorn using misdirection against Sauron to draw his attention elsewhere while Frodo reached Mount Doom. The Witch King was defeated because he underestimated those beneath him (i.e. Merry and Eowyn). The conclusion here is that being powerful doesn't mean you're omniscient. They can still be outsmarted and outmaneuvered by others. And for something that, from the information we have, was a lot simpler than Sauron or the dragons, it would be simpler to misdirect it.

As for your own proposal, honestly, I have to completely disagree with it for multiple reasons:
 - Firstly, as both myself and Necro have said, the concept of using magic can be removed for more material methods of manipulation (in fact the concept as a whole is progressing towards that aspect more and more).
 - The concept of the Balrog being a non-playable ally kills the entire point of the concept, which is that there is a risk/reward element. The Balrog can be a powerful weapon for the player but it can just as easily be a threat if they make a mistake.
 - The system you're proposing with the sacrifices was already used previously for 3.8.1 Smaug, while the current concept is entirely unique. Moreover, the previous Smaug concept was removed by the Edain Team as it "made him too complicated and expensive to recruit in most skirmishes" so I imagine that it would be the case for this as well. Same as with Karsh's sacrificial system in 3.8.1.

Also, I feel that redoing the entire concept to fit your perspective of the scenario may not be the best way of viewing it? Especially considering that it's already gone through quite a lot of support and changes (that still work with the core of the concept) for the short time that it has been on the forums.

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