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Dúrin's Bane: A reimagining for the iconic spell

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CaptainChunk!:
Hey people,

I had something in mind while reading the Shaman's purpose without the Balrog and wanted to drop it here.

First of all, I agree with a leveling up system because: The power is a tier 4 power and as Julio said, the power is meant to be a powerful damage dealer in a short period of time so, making the Shaman already a level 10 would be something too powerful in my view and also because of the other thing I have in mind for the Shaman, which is:
-A mechanic similar to Sauron, where he has to 2 templates of skills. One template is for the "control over the Balrog" skills, and the another template is for supportive skills to the Misty Mountains units, that would make sense for a leveling up system since a player would get him early in the game for supportive purpose thus leveling up until the power is available to get.
I don't know yet which skills could be added to the second template, or if it's possible to create, so if anyone have something to fix or add about my statements above, please leave your thoughts in it.  :)

FG15:
I believe the level 3 spell sounds a lot better on paper than the ingame implementation would work.

Also, what exactly does this hero do, while the Balrog is on cooldown?

Julio229:

--- Zitat von: CaptainChunk! am 12. Feb 2020, 18:44 --- Hey people,

I had something in mind while reading the Shaman's purpose without the Balrog and wanted to drop it here.

First of all, I agree with a leveling up system because: The power is a tier 4 power and as Julio said, the power is meant to be a powerful damage dealer in a short period of time so, making the Shaman already a level 10 would be something too powerful in my view and also because of the other thing I have in mind for the Shaman, which is:
-A mechanic similar to Sauron, where he has to 2 templates of skills. One template is for the "control over the Balrog" skills, and the another template is for supportive skills to the Misty Mountains units, that would make sense for a leveling up system since a player would get him early in the game for supportive purpose thus leveling up until the power is available to get.
I don't know yet which skills could be added to the second template, or if it's possible to create, so if anyone have something to fix or add about my statements above, please leave your thoughts in it.  :)
--- Ende Zitat ---

About the second palantir with supportive skills, I think that to include something like that and make the Shaman relevant throughout all the match he'd need to be more akin to a regular hero of the faction, and I'm not sure if I'd go that way with him, though if people feel it's needed to improve the Shaman's viability outside of the Balrog stuff (and the small stuff he gets on the level 1 and 3), it's definitely an idea to consider!

On a sidenote to that, I'm not sure about this so don't quote me on it, but I think the team don't want many double palantir heroes in the game, so only a select few like Gorthaur or Mouth of Sauron keep it. Still, I'm not too sure about that, so take it with a grain of salt  :P.

Finally, thanks for your input!

(I'll also elaborate on the Shaman's viability on the reply to FG)


--- Zitat von: FG15 am 12. Feb 2020, 19:31 --- I believe the level 3 spell sounds a lot better on paper than the ingame implementation would work.

Also, what exactly does this hero do, while the Balrog is on cooldown?
--- Ende Zitat ---

I can see why the implementation could be a bit iffy, specially due to the blocking of paths which could present some problems when playing in maps that have few ways to go against the enemy, if that makes sense. I'd hope there'd be a way to make it work well, but if it is impossible to do then I think it could always be reworked into something else, I believe there's a lot of possibilities in the system that could help finding a replacement if it were needed.

About the second question, about the viability, I added some small perks to the level 1 and 3 abilities to improve the viability of the hero while the Balrog's not summoned, but, as many people have brought up the issue of the Shaman's viability when the Balrog's not in, I feel that maybe more could be added to the hero to make it more viable. Maybe more secondary effects for the level 5 and 7 abilities when the Balrog's not in, or maybe Chunk's idea about a second palantir? I think those might be good starting points.

Thanks for your input, btw  :)


PD: given people have quite liked the idea Necro brought up of the Balrog being summonable even when the Shaman isn't around, I believe I will modify the concept to include that, since it adds a strategic layer to it that I feel is pretty interesting and wouldn't change all that much as to make the idea less balanced, or whatever. In fact, it probably improves upon that risk-reward element I go so much on about  :P I'll still keep the original idea too, so both can be debated if needed.

The_Necromancer0:
There is an argument that could be made to make the Shaman a full hero. Right now he simply exists to work alongside the Balrog, so when the Balrog is on cooldown his uses are reduced since he only meant to act as a way to direct the Balrog while still adhering to the lore aspect of their collaboration.

Misty Mountains currently doesn't have a disruptor hero, it has a lot of heroes that provide support to its units but none that really disrupt the enemy's formation beyond a few abilities such as Bolg's Level 7 or the Defiler's Level 10.  The question would then be whether to stack his regular disruption abilities together with his Balrog baiting abilities or to give him a second palantir.

Although, the Shaman being less useful while the Balrog is on cooldown isn't necessarily bad, it gives your opponent a chance to hunt him down and try to kill him before the balrog comes off cooldown. With the additional effects of the abilities, the MM player will be incentivized to keep him in his army and not hide him at the back of the base.

Julio229:

--- Zitat von: The_Necromancer0 am 12. Feb 2020, 23:26 --- There is an argument that could be made to make the Shaman a full hero. Right now he simply exists to work alongside the Balrog, so when the Balrog is on cooldown his uses are reduced since he only meant to act as a way to direct the Balrog while still adhering to the lore aspect of their collaboration.

Misty Mountains currently doesn't have a disruptor hero, it has a lot of heroes that provide support to its units but none that really disrupt the enemy's formation beyond a few abilities such as Bolg's Level 7 or the Defiler's Level 10.  The question would then be whether to stack his regular disruption abilities together with his Balrog baiting abilities or to give him a second palantir.

Although, the Shaman being less useful while the Balrog is on cooldown isn't necessarily bad, it gives your opponent a chance to hunt him down and try to kill him before the balrog comes off cooldown. With the additional effects of the abilities, the MM player will be incentivized to keep him in his army and not hide him at the back of the base.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Yeah, there's definitely pros for going both ways (making the Shaman a full fledged hero or just bundling effects into his abilities)... While I said before I was unsure about making the Shaman a full fledged hero when replying to Chunk, I'm starting to see more of a point to it, though I think both ways could work well and I'm still leaning towards bundling the effects a bit more. Making him a full fledged hero would definitely fill that role that seems like it'd be very fitting for the Misty Mountains (the disruptor role), and make it so he's useful throughout the game and gets a very interesting boon when you get to tier 4... I'm definitely starting to like that idea more  :P. Though there's a point that could be made about it being a bit harsher on the balance, if that makes sense.

And then, just keeping him as a Tier 4 unlockable and bundling effects into the Balrog deception abilities (like what the level 1 and 3 have right now) can also make the Shaman feel more useful when the Balrog's not around, giving an incentive to the player to keep them on the army and thus giving an opportunity to the other player to take them down, frustrating their intentions for a bit if they were close to summoning the Balrog.

Both ways seem like they could work for me, and I'm definitely unsure on which one to take  :D so far the concept leans more towards the bundling one, but I'm seeing it as being feasible either way now.

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