[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

Dúrin's Bane: A reimagining for the iconic spell

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Trondheim9:
Very nice concept!  I've already said I was in favor, just wanted to offer my two cents.  I think some of the earlier OP elements and questions could be resolved if each faction had a unique counter to the Balrog.  The risk-reward system is great for this concept, so I think something similar for a counter could be intriguing as well.  The idea would be that a specific hero from each faction can reduce a stat of the Balrog (armor, damage, speed, etc) but only while that hero is close to the Balrog.  The hero would also be 25% slower when close to the Balrog (if using a mount, 75% slower or whatever the equivalent would be).  This reduces an OP aspect of the Balrog and presents a dilemma: if you keep the hero close to the Balrog, you reduce its stats, but the Balrog could very well kill your hero.  I was thinking it could be every faction's Ring hero (not in Ring hero form), but I also think every faction's scout hero could be interesting as well.  The Misty Mountains player will then also be wanting to take out that hero to get the max usage out of the Balrog, so he would possibly deploy troops to deal with that as well, further increasing the risk of the Balrog destroying his own forces.  I don't want to make it too complicated, but if the hero is killed, maybe it could add 5 seconds to the Balrog's timer as a reward.  [Perhaps it is too much of a coding nightmare.] 

I guess the feeling I'm trying to capture is "I might have a chance" rather than "oh a Balrog, I'm super screwed".  I feel like the risk-reward scenario from the original concept is not enough.  By letting the Balrog remain very OP (it is a tier 4 spell after all) but introducing some kind of weakness, the gameplay could potentially be spiced up. 

Smeargollum:
Greetings,
I have to say that I realy like this concept too! As it is very lorefriendly and proboably one of the concept that isn't too bad for the balance, even though it is realy hard to implement a Balrog to a balanced game like edain.
I support Necro's idea of making the Balrog summonable as well before you get the shaman. This would give the player another tactical desicion, which would increase the gameplay even more.
About the level system of the shaman:
I think it would be good if he comes at level 1, becuase so you can increase his effectiness with the time and he is eventually strong the longer the game takes. But maybe it would be good, if you wouldn't have to rebuy him for a lot of money after he dies. That could be a slight handicap when you have to pay a huge amount of money after he died, as it would be logic when he is not a good fighter. So either make him free to rebuy or less expensice each level, as his magic skills increase.

So I am in favor for this suggestion!
I hope you can understand what I mean with my ... not professionell english  :P

Best regads,
Smeargollum

Julio229:

--- Zitat von: Trondheim9 am 12. Feb 2020, 03:17 --- Very nice concept!  I've already said I was in favor, just wanted to offer my two cents.  I think some of the earlier OP elements and questions could be resolved if each faction had a unique counter to the Balrog.  The risk-reward system is great for this concept, so I think something similar for a counter could be intriguing as well.  The idea would be that a specific hero from each faction can reduce a stat of the Balrog (armor, damage, speed, etc) but only while that hero is close to the Balrog.  The hero would also be 25% slower when close to the Balrog (if using a mount, 75% slower or whatever the equivalent would be).  This reduces an OP aspect of the Balrog and presents a dilemma: if you keep the hero close to the Balrog, you reduce its stats, but the Balrog could very well kill your hero.  I was thinking it could be every faction's Ring hero (not in Ring hero form), but I also think every faction's scout hero could be interesting as well.  The Misty Mountains player will then also be wanting to take out that hero to get the max usage out of the Balrog, so he would possibly deploy troops to deal with that as well, further increasing the risk of the Balrog destroying his own forces.  I don't want to make it too complicated, but if the hero is killed, maybe it could add 5 seconds to the Balrog's timer as a reward.  [Perhaps it is too much of a coding nightmare.] 

I guess the feeling I'm trying to capture is "I might have a chance" rather than "oh a Balrog, I'm super screwed".  I feel like the risk-reward scenario from the original concept is not enough.  By letting the Balrog remain very OP (it is a tier 4 spell after all) but introducing some kind of weakness, the gameplay could potentially be spiced up.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Hi, and thanks for the support! :)

About that idea, I think something like that could work, but my feeling so far is that the constant risk that the Balrog player is at if he doesn't manage to direct the Balrog well enough, plus it being temporary, makes it so the risk-reward concept feels like it's well balanced for me. When you get the Balrog under your control, sure, you have a massively useful tool to use, but given the short timer the Balrog would have, I'm not sure it'd be entirely different from what something like the Army of the Dead might be: a tool that will allow the player to deal massive damage for a short period of time, but still not so much as to completely decide the game unless something goes really awry. The rest of the time, the need to constantly keep the Balrog in check so the summon doesn't backfire for the MM player, I feel is enough to keep a good balance between risk and reward. And anyway, it is a tier 4 after all, so I'm not sure if introducing further cons to it would work in its benefit.

Anyway, it might be something to consider, and if more people agree, I'll give it more thought!


--- Zitat von: Smeargollum am 12. Feb 2020, 15:44 --- Greetings,
I have to say that I realy like this concept too! As it is very lorefriendly and proboably one of the concept that isn't too bad for the balance, even though it is realy hard to implement a Balrog to a balanced game like edain.
I support Necro's idea of making the Balrog summonable as well before you get the shaman. This would give the player another tactical desicion, which would increase the gameplay even more.
About the level system of the shaman:
I think it would be good if he comes at level 1, becuase so you can increase his effectiness with the time and he is eventually strong the longer the game takes. But maybe it would be good, if you wouldn't have to rebuy him for a lot of money after he dies. That could be a slight handicap when you have to pay a huge amount of money after he died, as it would be logic when he is not a good fighter. So either make him free to rebuy or less expensice each level, as his magic skills increase.

So I am in favor for this suggestion!
I hope you can understand what I mean with my ... not professionell english  :P

Best regads,
Smeargollum
--- Ende Zitat ---

Hi, and thanks for the support, glad you liked it!  :D

I definitely see the point behind your thoughts on the leveling system. I can agree that having him at level 1 but only having a big investment of money the first time you recruit the Shaman might be the way to go, since apart from directing the Balrog the Shaman wouldn't be all that useful though there still remains the issue of how the leveling should be tuned up so it is feasible to get the Shaman to the max level in a match. Still, I feel like if the leveling is tuned up in the way Denethor's, for example, is, it might not be all that much of an issue, though it's still a tier 4 that'd come reasonably late.

Anyway, overall, I think that might be one of the better ways to go around it, a sizeable (if that makes sense) money investment to start with, leveling him up from level 1, but then not having to pay near as much if the Shaman happened to die.

Smeargollum:
Another possibility would be that the shaman levels with the kills of the Balrog, similar to the level system of Sauron in 3.8.1 with the Nazgul. But that would mean that you can't use him at all when the Balrog is on cooldown, so I am not sure.
That is another thing: what is the purpos of the shaman when the Balrog is not on the battlefield... can he fight, does he have some kind of support abilitys for other MM creaturs, or is he only usefull when the Balrog is on the battlefield?
And is the Balrog suppost to take damage by normal units, or just heroes, or just special hero atacks like Glamdring or shouldn't he take damage at all?

That are probably questions you haven't thought about, but maybe some other have ideas what would be optimal...

Julio229:

--- Zitat von: Smeargollum am 12. Feb 2020, 17:05 --- Another possibility would be that the shaman levels with the kills of the Balrog, similar to the level system of Sauron in 3.8.1 with the Nazgul. But that would mean that you can't use him at all when the Balrog is on cooldown, so I am not sure.
That is another thing: what is the purpos of the shaman when the Balrog is not on the battlefield... can he fight, does he have some kind of support abilitys for other MM creaturs, or is he only usefull when the Balrog is on the battlefield?
And is the Balrog suppost to take damage by normal units, or just heroes, or just special hero atacks like Glamdring or shouldn't he take damage at all?

That are probably questions you haven't thought about, but maybe some other have ideas what would be optimal...
--- Ende Zitat ---

About the Shaman's purpose when the Balrog's not around, i did partially do something for that by giving his level 1 and level 3 ability some sort of effect, as in, the level 1 would give a slight debuff to enemies, and the level 3 would knock them back on summoning, and probably block their way since the column would be a building-esque object that would temporarily block the way (that would be untargetable/non-destructible for the Balrog, and unsure about the rest of units) but I didn't want to make the Shaman too useful on his own, though maybe something else could be added to him, and I'd welcome any suggestions on the matter!

About who can deal damage to the Balrog, I didn't give it that much thought, I admit, yeah  :P I pretty much assumed the Balrog itself wouldn't be changed all that much, the main change being the Shaman system and the uncontrollable state of the Balrog, so I guess it would still have the same weaknesses the 3.8.1 Balrog had, or maybe something else if it was to be deemed as impossible to kill, or something. A lot of things have changed since then, so I guess that remains to be seen.

Edit: And about the leveling system, that could be an option, though if I recall correctly the team changed Sauron's leveling system partially because of it being bugged, so I'm unsure if it'd be feasible.

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