Mordor Balance Discussion

[Odysseus]

I kind of agree. I feel that ET sometimes listens ''too'' well to community feedback and tends to overnerf things, in my opinion .

Nazgul hero trample damage as an example was pretty much gimped, same goes for Legolas' Hawk Strike and Tauriel's jump, although I can understand about Tauriel's nerf.

Perhaps we could test a small buff to trample damage like 5-10% tops and see how that goes. The deceleration is in a good spot for me as well.

[Skeeverboy]

Mordor can counter them easy with the Nazgul batallion, with Mollok, with morgulhorseman, with uruk archers or you ride with a Nazgul to them and kill them in close combat. Or you use a armored troll, which is very good against 1-2 batallions of archers.

The problem with the big trample damage from heroes was, that you hadn't need any normal cavallery against archer and swordsman.

[Hamanathnath]

Mordor can counter them easy with the Nazgul batallion, with Mollok, with morgulhorseman, with uruk archers or you ride with a Nazgul to them and kill them in close combat. Or you use a armored troll, which is very good against 1-2 batallions of archers.

The problem with the big trample damage from heroes was, that you hadn't need any normal cavallery against archer and swordsman.

All of the Units you just listed are incredibly easily countered by 2 or 3 groups of Carn Dum Pikes, besides the Uruk Archers, who are counter by the Carn Dum Bowmen themselves.  I'm not trying to sound rude, but I don't exactly get your point.  Even the Nazgul Battllion dies quick to enough archers when upgraded.

And yes, I understand that the Nerf to trample damage was needed, but, especially for Mordor who doesn't have many cavalry options, the nerf just seems like just a little too much.

Edit: I forgot to mention Fell Wind, Frozen Land, and Angmar's other Freezing options.  They also can serve as counters to whatever Mordor has to kill Carn Dum Bowmen.

[Skeeverboy]

All of the Units you just listed are incredibly easily countered by 2 or 3 groups of Carn Dum Pikes

A Nazgûl on a horse too, so I don't know why do you think that it would be better as the units I said^^

[Adrigabbro]

I kind of agree. I feel that ET sometimes listens ''too'' well to community feedback and tends to overnerf things, in my opinion .

I disagree. Take the beornings or, more recently, the ram riders, who are still overpowered.
Have you ever played League of Legends? That is overnerfing. 

[Odysseus]

Haha, well League of Legends is played at E-sports level, so I suppose the feedback of the high level players is invaluable for the developers even if it means overnerfing champions like Zed and Aatroxx.

Anyway, Beornings are not overpowered anymore imo, their build time was significantly increased, they can't just formshift on the fly any longer, and their damage was significantly reduced. Heroes can actually deal with them now.

Adrigabbro, do me a favor mate, go and test Legolas' Hawk Strike ability and see for yourself how pathetic it is at the moment. It's damage was probably reduced at least by 50%, if not more. I feel a little sorry for Legolas .

I agree with the Ram Riders though, but that's more because of Narin. Narin makes the Ram Riders so powerful with his leadership buffs, which are pretty nuts.

Anyway, sorry for derailing, back on topic plox.

[FG15]

The total damage of Legolas Hawk Strike is the same as it was before. When it is used at an area where there are really much enemies, it can even be higher.
Yes, the damage to the first target was removed, but now it can hit up to 4 additional targets, making it much more useful against spam.

[Elite KryPtik]

Agree with Odysseus' points about lego and ram riders, but those are different topics.

Regarding Mordor, I also agree that the trample damage has been nerfed far too heavily, I find it much more useful to just dismount and use them in combat now. Especially against Angmar, who I can say with utter surety Mordor has no chance against if the Angmar is played well. Even just spam wise, Angmar can win, discarding heroes, due to how weak the orcs of Mordor now are (something I was against nerfing since it was first suggested, due to this exact reason) and because of the incredibly slow build speed. Now that their damage has been nerfed, I think the build speed should be sped up a bit. Even trolls can't do anything because of Carn Dum Pikes, or Hillmen spam at the beginning.

I have sort of a radical idea here, but instead of linking the Nazgul to Sauron, can we just have them level up by default? This would help Mordor's balance a lot, because the Nazgul linking to Sauron is such a serious handicap. I think the Sauron system is cool, but its just a gimmick that kind of hampers gameplay in my view.

[Hamanathnath]

All of the Units you just listed are incredibly easily countered by 2 or 3 groups of Carn Dum Pikes

A Nazgûl on a horse too, so I don't know why do you think that it would be better as the units I said^^

Oh yeah sorry.  I forgot that I wasn't arguing about Angmar.  Yes, you are right, those units are better at killing Archers.  But still Just because those units can, I don't think that Nazgul should be weak at trampling.  The nerf just seems like too much to me.

[Hamanathnath]

I got some More-dor Balance problems to talk about  (yes, I know that pun was bad)

So people wanted to see how Mordor played against the already existing factions after the numerous nerfs they received, so I have come to talk about another broken match up: Mordor vs Rohan.

Mordor can't do anything against a Rohan who get an Exile Camp as early as possible, at least on decently small maps.  The bigger the map, the more chance Mordor has.  But let's say the matchup is on Fords of Isen 2, which is one of the most common 1v1 maps.  If Rohan gets Merry, makes the Exile camp while the Troll is still alive, and Draw the Troll away with Merry into his peasants to kill it, Rohan can get Exiles out incredibly quickly, which Mordor has currently no counters too.  The orcs aren't Strong Enough to rush the Exile Camp and Destroy it before it is made. Rushing for Orc Pikes makes the Peasants + Merry beat the orcs because of the Buff from the Exile Camp, as well as Serverly hurt Mordor's Economy.  And Rushing Trolls make Mordor's economy pretty much non-existent, takes too long to preform, and can be stopped by 1 Farmhand Battalion. 

This problem also applies to maps like Buckland in a 2v2 situation.  And once preformed, it gives Rohan all the map control they need to win the game. 

Now this is a tricky problem to fix the way I see it, though I personally think that the Exile Camp should cost 600 instead of 500.  And I also think Orc Pikes either need to be made Cheaper, or made Stronger, because they are the Worst pikemen unit in the game as far as I'm aware, and the still cost more then Farmhands (with no discount).

[-DJANGO-]

Agree with you, although i have not yet tested Mordor VS Rohan in 1VS1.
Another option for Mordor, that i think you forgot, would be to get early Cirith Ungol. But logically they would come too late (for early Exile Rohirrim) and that also should remain like that because Cirith Ungol is supposed to help Mordor against early Upgrade Units and Upgraded CAV.
So I agree with you that they key is the Exile Camp itself + maybe the normal pikes of Mordor. Nevertheless we should be aware that Rohan should be the better EG faction. A lot of the new changes to 4.3 balanced it quite good, more expensive Cirith Ungol, New Rohan Outpost.
In my opinion this would be step 1: Now raising the costs of Exile Camp to lets say 700 would already be effective in my eyes. I dont know how important the idea is, that the Exile Camp should be a cheap alternative for Rohan. Considering the really good buffs and options for Rohan, i think its also quite fair that the Exile Camp costs more than 500. Especially because it generates ressources itself.

Step 2 would be: slightly to change the stats of normal Mordor pikemen. I dont really like the idea that Rohrirrim become already extremly usless against Mordor in EG. Yes maybe they are a bit too weak atM, but they definitely should not become the "new Cirith Ungol Pikes".

[Hamanathnath]

I didn't mention Cirith Ungol because it takes too to get the Halberiers, costs more then going for Mountain Trolls, and the Cirth Ungol Barracks is unprotected by the Mordor base, making it too costly of a loss.

And when I say Mordor Orc Pikes should be buffed, I mean very slightly.  They should still be one of the worst pike units, but slightly better then they are now.  But thinking about it, I think reducing the cost of Mordor Orc Pikes to 250 or 200 would be a better idea, considering how weak they are right now.  Everyone I see play as Mordor just goes for Halberdiers anyways.

[Elite KryPtik]

We should keep discussion about the Exile Camp to the Rohan balance thread. I just want to point out that even before the Exile Camp existed and Mordor was nerfed, they still had nothing to beat Rohan. A well played Rohan can completely shut down Mordors early and late game, because Mordors pikes have always been terribad. Its not just the Exile Camp, there has always been a huge advantage for the Rohan player. Its a fundamental faction based problem, if you want to call it a problem. I personally don't mind it, some matchups have always been bad for certain factions, even in vanilla. It just makes for more interesting matches.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

I agree with a price increse for the Exile Camp. The resource production and the buff alone are worth more than 500, and the Exiles themselves are the cherry on top. I'd also vote for shortening the duration of the buff it gives. I like that mechanic on statues, but the Exile Camp doesn't need it imho, especially with the speed buff it gives.

[Hamanathnath]

I know that this isn't the place for this discussion, I don't mind the Exile Camp giving a buff, but 90 seconds is a LONG time to have it, so I agree that should be shortened to 60 seconds.