[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Mordor Suggestions

Mordor Balance Discussion

<< < (35/41) > >>

calixoxx:
Well thank you for "teaching" me how to play on a suggestion forum.  8-|

I have had plenty of experience playing edain, actually. This is the kind of response and cocky arrogance that 1) made me stop watching your videos, and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers"

You send upgraded trolls into an army of upgraded pikes, especially elite pikes, of any faction, and it goes down. If those pikes have heavy armor, the troll isn't going to devastate your army as much as your army is going to devastate that troll.

You mention many combinations of Mordor play that sound fantastic on paper, but ultimately rarely makes it to fruition late game in reality. If you're a Mordor camp, you have limited build plots. You need to choose carefully between going for spell point recharge reduction or archer/pike reduction. Choose between 2-3 barracks (2 is the standard for me, it's almost GG if you only make 1 barracks as Mordor early). So you're using 2 plots for barracks. Then you pick between 2-3 arsenals or tribute camps. Now you're already using all but 1 of your build plots so you need to choose between siege or trolls.

Everyone makes the case that Mordor is so eco friendly because the units are free. But those free units are not viable late game. You can argue you "make" them viable by spamming them, but CP only goes so far. Then while you're churning out the orcs, you need to spend very heavily just to make your nazgul viable by leveling Sauron. The units from Cirith Ungol, yes, take no CP, but are expensive and limited to 3. Just getting to your first battalion of castellans costs 3,600 I think, then even more for 2 additional ones. You're dumping 500+400+300 PER troll. They should be more tanky.

I really cannot see how you could possibly have 4 pikes from Isengard get mowed down by 2 trolls unupgraded. I really have never seen that happen regularly.

You paint a very dreamy picture of late game Mordor that rarely pans out perfectly for the Mordor player. My argument is to buff trolls against pikes slightly to make them more viable in armies head to head. I have never played with you, Kryptik, because you seem more comfortable playing with the same group of people every time (and when I've invited you to a group game you've said "No." but I can tell you that I play many times a week with/against a large group of edain players and I very rarely see trolls playing a prominent, EFFECTIVE roll in Mordor armies head-to-head late game because they are so brittle to pikes and arrows late game. It simply does not happen.

Without sounding like a jerk, I think maybe you should experience playing against more than Haman, Python, Fella, and Sawman 90% of the time and maybe you would see a wider amount of the challenges we are experiencing.

As a balance tester I think you should take it upon yourself to expand your horizons a little bit. And please do not presume to know my experience level  :D My goals are to enjoy the game- same as you.

Elite KryPtik:
First off, it wasn't my intention to sound cocky. Secondly, I'm talking about things from a 1v1 perspective, not a team game perspective, which is where you seem to have most of your experience. Thirdly, I play a lot of games that I don't upload to my channel against a wide range of people. Fourthly, I never said that trolls are OP at large, I said they are OP against certain factions. A troll with a mace will destroy any pike unit in the game, upgraded or not, with extreme ease. The only ones that could potentially stop them are Mirkwood Palace Guards because of their insanely strong ability that is itself OP.

I would happily 1v1 you if you don't believe me, although the problem is that in a controlled 1v1 situation you're going to KNOW I'm are rushing trolls and react accordingly. The strengths of Mordor are their incredible options and diverse playstyles, that make it impossible for MOST factions to effectively compete with them. As for not having enough build plots, that isn't an argument, you can very easily rush for an outpost, especially on maps like Fords of Isen 2, make more orc pits, and flood your enemy to death wityh basic, free orcs backed by Nazgul and Gothmog. Then, with map control, you take the other outpost for your siege or anything else you need. It is not at all difficult to build up an incredible army as Mordor.

EDIT: Also, I'm not a balance tester, or else it would say so in my signature. My main role is correcting mistakes with the english text. I just play a lot with experienced and capable players. I have never stated to be the best player in the community, I would delegate that to somebody like Mogat or Firefly.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:

--- Zitat von: calixoxx am 16. Jan 2017, 02:21 ---[...] and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers"

--- Ende Zitat ---
That certainly isn't the intention of anyone here, you are very welcome to post about any issues you might have. It's great to have you :)

The thing is, your argumentation really isn't that great either [ugly]. You pretty much argue that trolls get killed (too easily) by pikes, correct me if I'm wrong here. Since pikes are the main counter of monsters, that's obviously not inherently bad, quite the contrary. That mostly leaves the point of trolls dying too quickly to pikes, and that's where I disagree. Armoured trolls reach over 10000 hp when they level up. That's an obscene amout of hp. Pikes do most damage when they are trampled and deal crushrevenge, which is something a good Mordor player can avoid most of the time. That means you also need archers to focus the trolls down, because pikes in melee won't deal with the trolls fast enough to protect the rest of your army from annihilation. And since archers and pikes will usually be upgraded, you're now investing more money and much more cp to counter the troll than the guy who gets the troll. That's a money advantage right there, and because orcs are free you can use that money for an outpost, heroes, castellans, archers... all that sweet stuff that's good against pikes.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: calixoxx am 16. Jan 2017, 02:21 ---I have had plenty of experience playing edain, actually. This is the kind of response and cocky arrogance that 1) made me stop watching your videos, and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers".

--- Ende Zitat ---

This typology of threads is also supposed to be place for discussion, and so one should also expect to get replies to one's contributions and to debate with other people. The Edain Team will nonetheless have the possibility to read the development of every debate and then make their own final considerations. Just, as I pointed out, people are also supposed to discuss with other users on balance-related topics. Yes, discussions may often be heated or even harsh, because rarely does anyone have the absolute ultimate truth at hand; as a Moderator, I wouldn't really like things to get so much lively, but this is also a part of the whole forum experience. If you are really involved in an exchange of opinions, I couldn't give you any other advice but try to counter each response with even more arguments and constructive points (as you have also done so far).

Only, please, stop with the entire 'Beta/Balance Testers argument', because you seem to be quite obsessed with the internal members of Modding Union and I honestly sense a bit of resentment in your words (personal resentment). The contributions of all Beta/Balance Testers are totally not inherently superior to the ones of other people, just for their own activity in this forum. It's really not an issue in the first place, as everyone here has the right to participate and to be heard by others. They could instead provide more insightful elements or present many practical evidences. As I already told you on ModDB, the fact that most of the attendees of these threads are Beta/Balance Testers is due to the tough nature of the matters involved (balance) and because they also happen to be the most active group of people that is interested in this topic. I'm not personally interested in balance and that's why I don't usually post here. In no way, though, should these facts restrain someone from joining the discussion (many other people intervened here as well) or be brought as some sort of arguments whatsoever, unless one is really intended to raise this issue in the first place.

If you desire to debate balance-related topics and to improve the game, that's absolutely fine. But if you want to address other different issues or give criticism about how the internal members of the forum work or how the Edain Team manages things, there is a proper space which is meant to gather general feedback regarding this website; and you should do that overtly, without hinting at your grievances anytime another one is answering you. Otherwise, if you need to settle very personal disputes (invitations, quarrels, personal complaints and so on), personal messages (PMs) exist exactly for this purpose.

-DJANGO-:
I think mostly everything was put in order by now. Though i have some points for you and all new people who want to participate in balance discussions should remember:

1. As all of your posts showed, you got responses to your suggestion, meaning that FEEDBACK IS ALWAYS welcome. If really love that new people bring new life into these balance discussions.

2. Its for your best, if you think about your proposal and write it as CONCRETE as possible.
It is always easier to say "that is OP, this is broken, useless". But when it comes to what the best concrete solution is, most people don't offer one.
Balance Testers are not "the bad guys" if you thought so! No one shut's suggestions down as "whining or simply complaining", IF you bring a concrete suggestion and with a coherent argumentation behind it. Which leads to point 3...

3. Balance is always based on 1v1 matches. Though many different aspects have to be cosidered: like diffrent Maps or the skill of the players.

4. The more your proposals are concrete, the less "teaching" or argumentation on "how can a faction/unit be played" will you get. Nonetheless on some Balance Suggestions this kind of argumentation is valid. Because you always have to consider where the strengh and weakness of a faction lies and what role for example a unit has within its faction. For example we had an internal Thread on german, where we first discussed how a faction is played at the moment, and then how it should be played, be improved and balance strategies and so on and on...
But I agree with you, that this kind of argumentation should always be connected to the previous suggestion, so that it doesn't ignore your point. Then it won't be "teaching" but a falid aspect of balance that should be considered.

5. If you should base your argumentation on a comparison with other factions, reconsider if the problem maybe lies not within the other mentioned factions.

Greetings and hopefully you don't lose your motivation on giving balance feedback

:)

Navigation

[0] Themen-Index

[#] Nächste Seite

[*] Vorherige Sete