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Dwarven Balance Discussion

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Hamanathnath:
I have no problem with the Tunnel System personally.  Unlike in BFME2, where you can have Hall of Warriors and Mine any where you want them, the fixed plots from the BFME1 style make it limited to where you can go.  It is useful for sure, but overpowered is pushing it in my opinion.

I also already use Stonemasons in my base because I can get Mines on the outside Build plots.  Generally I have 1 mine for the Tunnel System in my base, and all the other resource buildings are Stonemasons.  Maybe it's just me though.

I think a Command Point increase, and maybe a slight trample deceleration increase would be good for the Battlewagons.  But other then that I still think they are fine the way they are now.

I am willing too test Iron Hills vs Lothlorien out Mogat, considering I brought this up, though I don't think it is fair for the Winner of the LPS cup to be a test subject in this, because even if you do win, that might just be you being better then me rather then Lothlorien and Iron Hills being balanced. 

 

Elite KryPtik:
I think you guys misunderstood me, I never meant to say the tunnel system is OP, I just meant that in THIS SPECIFIC MATCHUP it is really effective against attempted harassment from elves. To answer your reply Mogat, I can easily have 3 guardians and pull them out at each of the 3 mineshafts you attack, and if my micro is on point I catch your troops before you attack the mineshaft. Combine this with the extra health mines gain from stoneworkers and the damage you can do is minimal.

It all comes down to how good you are at multitasking really, and frankly I don't think most people are good enough to split their armies and harass all over the map, even my attention becomes stretched terribly if I have to manage more than 3 groups of units. I think that when you have to manage a main force along with 3 different single battalions of harassment troops, you are bound to lose some elves to defending dwarves.

So if we are talking standard skill level engagements without incredibly intense harassment, I think its safe to say that the matchup is heavily in favor of the dwarves. If you screw up a single time as elves you'll pay terribly for it. This is kind of similar to the Mordor situation in the previous patch, where you could beat Mordor but a single mistake could kill you. We'll see how it goes, but right now Iron Hills is just a really solid counter to everything Lorien has.

Mogat:
Trust me, I do manage to control a lot of different unit-groups at once  ;)

Fact is, that you cannot pull units out of a mineshaft while others are entering somewhere else. There is always about 3-4 sec in which you cannot klick on the units in the mineshafts, which adds a lot of touble with using mines quickly (on competstive niveau those seconds are crucial. )
In addition to that, pulled out dwarves often bug a little and need some time until they can hit the units clumped behind their building.
As I already said, because of the default speed difference the elves never can be forced to fight, so catching an elven unit is very hard.

I am not sure how a direct fight between a medium sized lorien and dwarf force goes, but with an eco advantage through harassing it might be equal.

I acually would really like to see a replay/ test it out myself.

Elite KryPtik:

--- Zitat von: Mogat am 12. Mai 2016, 20:40 ---Fact is, that you cannot pull units out of a mineshaft while others are entering somewhere else. There is always about 3-4 sec in which you cannot klick on the units in the mineshafts, which adds a lot of touble with using mines quickly (on competstive niveau those seconds are crucial. )

--- Ende Zitat ---
The key word here being ENTERING. I can quickly exit 3 guardians to stop you harassing without entering units in the mineshaft, so that has no relevance as far as I am concerned. Sure, you can run, but if your running then your not killing my mineshaft, which is what those guardians were there to prevent in the first place.

Again, I know that you can manage lots of troops at once, I can too with some difficulty, but not all players are as good as you or I. So we should also consider that you should stand a decent chance of winning without epic intense harassment, which is what your argument centers around. Yes, it is important, but if it is a requirement to win then there is a problem in my view. Plus, there is absolutely nothing stopping me from harassing your Mallorn Trees as well, combined with the fact that my guardians beat your swords in 1v1, and are cheaper than them unless you have 3 different border guardhouses. The advantages stacked for the dwarves are pretty obvious in this case.

Mogat:
there is no sense in discussing this here how we would could etc.
If I wanted I could argue, that if you got 3 batalions in the mineshaft to not "enter" it I would win every engagement. Or that I am not attacking all mines at exact the same time so you couldn't pull out guardians without having enterd somewhere else before, or just the fact that you need a lot of time till your dwarves get around the building to attack the elves.
And I just run as far, that I see when you reenter the mine.
I think it is pointless to discuss this, because we could exchange arguments endlessly, I will stop now. If you want we can test it and improove the mod this way. But if so, then the shields are no reason at all for imbalance.

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