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Dwarven Balance Discussion

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Odysseus:
Well, meatshield is a term that can be employed in a broad sense. You have the traditional meatshield, the Mordor Orcs, but you can also have more durable damage soakers, which would typically called damage sponges, like tanks. I am pretty sure the idea was initially to have a frontline, the same way peasants work for Rohan.

I may be wrong though.

Aiphaton:
Hello together,

since there is no official balance thread for 4.5 yet, I'd like to introduce one.

Ofc 4.5 hasn't been out for a long time and it's too early to talk about everything in detail yet. Lots of testing and playing in PVP is still needed to get a generic overview over every single issue, with all the counterbalance going on and the new changes to the gameplay.

At this point thumbs up to the ET for doing such an amazing job!

However here's a first issue that I find likely to have a great negative influence on Multiplayer in general.
It's the tier 1 Ravenspell of the Dwarves.
Although I do like the new implementation of this spell as a defense-mechanism which is summoned static on a building, I don't quite like the benefits it brings to the Dwarven player.

The issue I am having with it is basically that it has a huge impact for such a cheap spell. There are:
- 50% Armor Buff for surrounding buildings
- 25% Debuff for hostile units
- 200% extra sight
- The spell stays permanent unless you don't recast it on another building

While the debuff is really strong, the real problem I see is the 50% armor buff for surrounding building. This ability stacks with other abilities like the Runes (+20%), the quarries (+30% max) and the citadel bonus in bases and outposts (+50%), which earns the concerning buildings 150% more armor.

This rewards a clumpy and campy playstyle and makes it nearly impossible to take down a base or even an outpost (especially since both, casting runes AND ravens on the citadel, brings the armor buff to all buildings inside the base/outpost).

The experience that I had with it is, that basically rushing an outpost and casting the ravens on it to debuff hostile units and buff the own buildings is a viable strategy to win matches. I also witnessed that mines have become so tanky, that harassment became nearly impossible, especially since the dwarven reinforcements benefit from the debuff of hostile units.

Also it is an option for the dwarven player to cast the ravens as a last resort on his base and force the enemy to siege him, while he can build up a strong dwarven force once again and come back.
I know that a comeback system in 4.5 is wanted up to some extent, however doing this over and over, not being able to end a match simply because the buildings in a base are too tanky, is not a way I imagine this was thought of.


Perhaps there is a way to deactivate the 50% building buff in a new balance patch, since I also don't see quite the connection between ravens buffing a building, while the other effects are understandable.

Seleukos I.:
Hi,
in general I agree with you: The ravens are too strong right now. But I don't think the armor buff for a building is that much of a problem, at least not in 1v1. Even if your opponent rushes an outpost you can play arround it (I think, I haven't been in this kind of situation in 4.5 yet^^).

The in my opinion bigger problem is the fact, that the ravens stay where they are even if the building is destroyed. I think they should fly home (to the dwarven players base) after the building is gone.

But if the building armor buff is in fact too strong, I'd rather decrease it to like 30% instead of removing it completely. The defensive path of the spellbook should still be a good choice as well.

best regardes
Seleukos I.

Valarauko:
I agree with Aiphaton to 100%. First of all it doesn't make sny sense that raven can strength a building. And second point is, it is way to strong. Especially with the other buffs as Aiphaton said. I friend of us plays Ered Luin all the time and he also agree on this problem. I think totally delete the armor buff would be the right solution. Especially because a tier 1 spell with 200% more sight and a debufge is strong enough. But also seleukos is right. It looks kinda strange when the ravens stay there even after the building got destroyed.

Smeargollum:
Hello,
I can understand all your points perfectly!
The ravens feel very strong atm as they stay forever and have a great Debuff. But as Seleukos already said it would be better when they return to their base after their building is destroyed.
So far I didn't have any bad experience with the armor buff but when I think about it, it would be good to get rid of it. When you are in a game you want to try to get the other player out of position and then go in to quickly destroy the raven-building and in that situation it doesn't make that much sense to have that buff gameplaywise.
If you feel like dwarves need some kind of stronger building armor buff we could discuss about buffing the runs, but I think that is not nessesary.
So I agree with you, Aiphaton ;)

Sorry for my bad english  :P

Best regards Smeargollum

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