New Iron Hills Unique Siege Weapon

[Walküre]

OFF TOPIC:

Today is not the day for misunderstandings or apologises, Elite 

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32030.msg417472.html#msg417472

[Elite KryPtik]

I wouldn't say its off topic, I was responding to a previous post of his in this thread, similarly to how I'm responding to you now. Also thanks for the happy birthdays

[LordDainIronfoot]

He meant that his post about your birthday is off this topic my friend! :-)

[Elite KryPtik]

Oh, 2 misunderstandings in a row, I'm on a freaking roll aren't I? 

[Walküre]

He meant that his post about your birthday is off this topic my friend! :-)

Yes 

It seems that we are all misunderstanding each other tonight, in this thread 
Probably, we poured so much energies on these and other proposals that we were completely drained of our vital force 

[Fredius]

Translations have started guys, I hope they will be done by tonight.

Small question, why can't I change my vote in the poll? I'd like to pick another option but it seems I only had one shot .

[CragLord]

Translations have started guys, I hope they will be done by tonight.

Small question, why can't I change my vote in the poll? I'd like to pick another option but it seems I only had one shot .

I think vote works that way. Simply you know results after you vote first time, so it is maybe a bit cheeting?
P.S. That also bother me... xd
P.S.2. Good luck and thank you for your efforts.

[Elite KryPtik]

I set it to that option, didn't realize anybody would want to change their vote. If some more people express the desire to change their vote I'll change the poll.

[Walküre]

Small question, why can't I change my vote in the poll? I'd like to pick another option but it seems I only had one shot .

What is done is simply done 

Probably, it's intended to give everyone the concrete opportunity to really express its own opinion, without being influenced too much by the votes that have already been submitted.

[Fredius]

Well to go further on the poll, I think we need to change it a bit. During the translating I have stumbled on some little issues, for example: The first option says that the Ballista, with chains, should be buildable without removing the catapult. The second option says that the Ballista should be buildable without removing the catapult, but this time no chains. The third option says to replace the Catapult with the Ballista, but it doesn't say anything about including the chains or not, so that part is unclear. Furthermore, it has been proposed that the chains could be an upgrade. This upgrade should not be included in the poll, because the Fire tips are another proposal for an upgrade as well, but it doesn't fit anywhere in the poll, which means that the poll is not complete.

In my opinion, this is how the poll should be:

1. The player can build both the Ballista and the Catapult.
2. The Ballista replaces the Catapult.
3. The Catapult stays, the Ballista is not needed.
4. The Catapult stays, the Ballista can be summoned by a Hero (I think we should decide which hero, and looking through the topic it has been suggested that it should probably be Drar).
5. *This leaves one last option open, I don't know if another option is necessary, but another interesting suggestion was to make the Ballista OR the Catapult a fortress expansion only. I personally don't think this is needed, but perhaps you guys would like it.

Now about the upgrades. I gave it a little thought and came to the conclusion that the decision for the upgrades should be based on the most voted option in the poll. If the first option (to include both the Catapult and Ballista in the mod) has the highest amount of votes, then the Chains upgrade should be used for the Ballista. The Catapult will be the main anti-building siegeweapon, while the Ballista should be anti-unit/anti-monster. The Chains upgrade will give the Ballista the option to deliver more area damage to units, so this will become a real anti-unit siegeweapon.

However, if the second option is voted most (The Ballista replaces the Catapult), then the Ballista should become an anti-building siegeweapon, because with the removal of the Catapult the IH will lack an good siege weapon against buildings. The Fire Tips upgrade will give the Ballista the option to deliver even more damage to buildings, but ofcourse they still should be strong against single units/monsters, but the possibility to gain an area damage upgrade, like the chains, will be gone.

This way the whole suggestion will be polished a bit more in my opinion. This also means that the votes have to be reset, but I hope you guys understand my advise on this matter. Tell me what you think of this, and if everything is concluded and clear, then I'll continue the translations.

[Elite KryPtik]

I made the remaining 3 options without referencing the chains on purpose, I didn't want to get it over complicated. The only reason I mentioned chains in the first 2 were because they were both popular ideas in the replies. The remaining 3 options, except to not include the ballista at all, leave the chains open to discussion in the replies. That is why they make no mention. I just wanted to get a basic understanding of what people wanted. I guess I will remake the poll with the 3 most popular options, and include a couple more specific options as well. As for the translation, just type down the main ideas, and give a link to this poll, so that we can hopefully get all the votes in 1 place

[Fredius]

First of all, the opinion of the Chains isn't populair, but actually very divided . Just look through the thread and you will see that a lot of people don't like it.

Now on to the matter, I understand that you would like this to become an open discussion, but proposals in the German forums are a bit different from the English ones. What happens mostly in the German forums is that people actually present a more or less finished concept of their proposal, and work on minor improvements after the feedback they get; it's like presenting a prototype of your product. Look at these German suggestions as examples:

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31638.0.html

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31900.0.html

Basically someone presents a finished concept, and people vote if they are for or against the idea. The same thing has happened with our Assembly Hall suggestion:

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31733.0.html

Don't worry, people write whole essays in the German suggestion threads, so the more complicated, the better I'd say . However, it is important that we present a clear and detailed concept of our ideas, or else we will get negative responses from the team and the other members. Polls on the other hand, should be simple and neutral. The idea of adding Chains is something that has to be discussed properly and not be put in a poll, because you will close the option to add in ideas for other upgrades. You know that a lot of people in the German forums don't like the movie right? If we present them mostly options that include chains, the option "Don't add Ballista at all" will get 100 more votes than the others. So all in all, make the poll simple and neutral, but make the overall concept as detailed and clear as possible.

Also with what we have right now I can't make a good concept out of it. Like I said we need to make a basic concept and put everything in the first post, just like the Assembly Hall idea in the English Suggestion Forums. Please tell me what you guys think of my idea about the upgrades I just posted, do you like it or is it completely nonsense ?

[Elite KryPtik]

Listen man, I really don't care that much about this. As I said I posted it off-handedly, and I really couldn't put it into a better form than I have already. So I'll say this: You do whatever you want to do on the German forums to present it in the best way possible, and make your own poll. I'm happy with the current poll, so if you want to put this much effort into the presentation then you should be the one who dictates what goes into the poll anyways. I would still recommend linking here so that German users who can speak English an come and see the source, besides that, go nuts with it.

[Fredius]

I'm posting ideas from the English Forums in the German Forums, so a seperate poll with whole different choices is therefore not an option. We count the votes in both forums to see how many people like the idea, and the more people like it the better the chances that the Team will use the idea. Like I said I can't make a good concept out of the poll we have now, because the options are just not clear. I just want to know if the other fans here agree with me or not, if they don't then I'll just keep quiet and try to make the best out of the current poll. I hope I haven't offended you in any way and if I did then hereby my apologies.

[Walküre]

Fredius is kind of right.
As I had the opportunity to experience as well, the German Community has generally a different 'style' of exposing and presenting proposals, usually more detailed yet directly targeted to the core of the matter, which are consequently judged and examined by the other people, who later specifically express their agreement or disagreement; while I would say that the English Community definitely focuses more on widening the topic as much as it's possible, and, after many people agreed with a specific matter, finding a reasonable compromise among the other opinions.

I don't obviously want to determine which 'style' is better or more suitable, and these are, in my opinion, just general traits of the Communities, that could be (and have already been) easily disproved by different and specific cases, since the Edain Community is fortunately not a static totem with strict rules and conventions that must be necessarily followed.

Therefore, I too reckon that this poll might turn out to be a bit 'complicated' and 'dispersive' for the German users that didn't follow this particular discussion and all its elements involved (also because we have to take into consideration that there are people that don't speak English or just don't follow what happens here).
But, I must also say that it would be a bit redundant starting another new poll here, to match it with the one that will be opened on the German Forum.
So, I sincerely suggest Fredius wait a bit to open a poll in the future German thread (also regarding the new 'rules' involving polls themselves on MU), and, instead, focus more on testing what the German Community really thinks about this topic (through a general discussion), consulting possible positive or negative feedback (the 'dafür' system might help, for now).

Then, we will discuss again if there will be the necessity of having another general poll on both the forums for a 'final' proposal.
Even though, I must say, now the priority should be making the Edain Team aware that this matter could really be an useful possibility for something new 
Strict and specific details are not the pivotal point, for now.

Elite KryPtik, no one is dictating something just because some changes might be needed or not.
I'm sure that Fredius didn't mean to be negative, not appreciative or demanding.
An initial proposal could always be subjected to modifications and further development, via reasonable and interesting debates, and, most importantly, we should always consider the different contexts in which some proposals have to be integrated into.
It's really important that this 'task' is accomplished by all the different voices possible of this Community, in a very pacific and 'passionate' spirit 

You never know how far a discussion could lead you, and what interesting aspects could bring