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Lothlórien Balance Discussion

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Hamanathnath:
I know this belongs in the Mordor balance thread, but I wanted to reply to Odysseus since he posted about Mordor here.  I'll try to keep it short :)


--- Zitat von: Odysseus am 24. Jan 2016, 22:18 --- The more diverse an army composition is, the more fun the game should be, if you ask me.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Honestly, I would argue that Mordor is the most diverse Faction in the entire game.  Yes, you will see a lot of free orcs in the Early game of Mordor.  But pretty much every other faction only uses 2 or 3 units in there early game as well.  And later in the game, the amount of choices a Mordor player has is very large.  Cirith Ungol Orcs, a large roster of heroes, trolls, different variations of the standard orcs, the outpost specific units, a good roster of siege, Rhun and Harad Reinforcements, Orc Overseers, the lesser wraiths things that come from using Morgul Blade while Minas Morgul is influence by Sauron,  and those Werewolves Gorthuar can make from his fortress.  And that's not even counting what you decide to use Influence of Sauron on, which give so many choices on what you want to upgrade first.  I don't think any other faction compares to how many choices of units Mordor has.  Yes, you will see free orcs a lot, but free orcs by themselves can't win against the late game armies of the other factions.

As for improving Lorien Warriors, I completely agree.  They are too weak against the other stating units, which makes smaller maps very hard to deal with.  It also pretty much forces the player to spam Beornings because they are just better in pretty much every way early on.

Sefie1999AD:
I've been thinking about Lothlorien's Ent units. They cost 900 credits, and what do you get with that money: a unit that is a battering ram and a catapult, can trample over enemies, has a wide melee attack that knocks enemies back, and they also get a speed boost when they see Lumber Mills or other Ents dying, so they can even be used like a temporary cavalry, to trample units and chase enemies. I'm not completely sure about this, but they seem to induce fear on enemy units too. Ents are indeed an intimidating force that needs to be taken seriously in the battlefield, or they will bring your base down in a few moments.

I was thinking about ways how I'd want to see the Ents changed. One choice would be to reduce their damage to heroes, so you have at least some units that can challenge Ents in close-range battles. Another choice would be to increase their cost. Some Elven units cost more than the Ents, but are a lot less threatening (*cough* Haldir xD). Then I was thinking, why are the Ents such a threat in the first place? To counter them, you need fire arrows, catapults or strong (usually mid/lategame) heroes. The first two usually require you to upgrade your buildings. For some factions, Fire Arrows even require upgrading to level 3. Ents, on the other hand, could be recruited ever since you reach your first settlement. Money is the only limitation, but since every Lorien structure provides resources (honey harvesting provides double resources), my economy is usually very strong with Lothlorien anyway. When you get an Entmoot set up, Ents are available right away. Since other factions need to upgrade their structures to get catapult-class weapons, I was thinking of implementing the same limitation for Ents.

If you remember, Ents never want to be hasty, so it would make sense if they took a long time to get and couldn't be recruited right away. Therefore, I'm proposing an upgrade system for Entmoots:

Entmoot, level 1 (base level):
* Can recruit Quickbeam since he is considered very hasty
* Has an Ent gathering upgrade that raises the Entmoot to level 2

Entmoot, level 2:
* Gives access to ordinary Ents
* Has an advanced Ent gathering upgrade that raises the Entmoot to level 3

Entmoot, level 3:
* Gives access to Treebeard
* Maybe has a passive ability that decreases the build time for Ents, or extinguishes fire from nearby Ents, or something like that

This way, you'll have more time to prepare for an Ent rush, and you aren't as forced to tech-rush to fire arrows and fire catapults to counter the Ents. To compensate for the Ents being delayed, they could perhaps gain a small armor boost, to make them even sturdier. From a strategic point of view, this will make scouting more important: if you find an Entmoot under construction, you'll have all the time to prepare for an Ent rush, but if you fail to scout, the Ents will be more dangerous than ever before.

Sawman:
I personally don't think Ents need a nerf if anything they need a buff of some sort. Have you tested them against pikes? Its the same result as if you were fighting trolls they almost instantly die because they try to trample and fire arrows for most factions are easy enough to get it might take a little time but the pike men can hold them off until you do. And another thing to add if you have two or more hero's they can take down an Ent with ease and myself I almost never buy Ents because of these weaknesses and high cost, there are better things to buy so to speak.

Thanks   

Gandalf7000:
I agree with  Sefie1999AD just about the last thing of upgrading entmoot. I think that they don't need to be nerfed but upgrading entmoot step by step would be nice improvement. ;)

Sefie1999AD:
Just to clarify my point, I didn't eventually propose that the Ents would get directly nerfed. On the 2nd paragraph of my last post, I meant I initially wanted to see the Ents nerfed, but when I started to think why the Ents are so problematic, I realized that the problem isn't that they're strong, the problem is that they're available too early. As a result, I proposed that instead of a direct nerf, I'd like to see an Entmood upgrade system. That way, the Ents wouldn't be available as early, but the setback would be compensated with other things (for example, higher recruitment speed on an upgraded Entmoot, maybe better armor for Ents etc).


--- Zitat von: Sawman am 17. Mär 2016, 20:42 ---Have you tested them against pikes? Its the same result as if you were fighting trolls they almost instantly die because they try to trample and fire arrows for most factions are easy enough to get it might take a little time but the pike men can hold them off until you do.
--- Ende Zitat ---

I assumed the Ents can simply use their close-range attack to knock back the pikes, but if they can work as a decent counter to hold off the Ents until fire arrows are available, then that's good to know.

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