[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Lothlórien Balance Discussion

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Elite KryPtik:
Another thing that should be mentioned, that I frequently mentioned while this was in beta: If Galadriel rejects the Ring, it becomes impossible for the enemy to reclaim it. This is really unfair, that Lothlorien can literally make the Ring disappear. If the Ring is rejected, Frodo should be summoned along with Sam immediately near Galadriel, and be able to drop the Ring if he is killed.

Elite KryPtik:
So, I just had a long, epic 2v2 with Lothlorien, I'll post the replay in the replays section. There are many big issues that have come to bear, it seems that Lothlorien really are one of the weakest factions in late game. I'll list my points below.

Firstly, Lothlorien are not only weak against cavalry of Gondor, but also tower guard spam. Over and over again, he would hit me with massive tower guard armies that just, wouldn't, freaking, die. Even with a bunch of galadhrim with silverthorns, and caras galadhon guardians, I just wasn't dealing enough damage, and the conflict would destroy both of out armies. I highly recommend increasing the damage of silverthorn arrows, they seem rather weak right now. After all, Lorien is supposed to be the highest damage archer faction, to make up for their lack of heavy armor.

Secondly, Elves really have no good counter against siege positioned behind an enemy army. He sniped me with these all game, killing my heroes and huge clumps of my army, and I could not really do much of anything about it. For those of you who say that ents could counter, he had fire stones. 1 shot and the ent would be lit up and run off and die. I suppose Beornings could be used to counter, but I was not getting them because they cannot effectively counter tower guards, and additionally the other opponent was Rohan, who could just trample them to death with no problem. Another point in regards to Ents is that they cost too many command points, I can't see them being worth more than 45 in relation to their resource cost. How many command points do trolls cost? They should be identical.

Thirdly, Galadriel takes WAY too long to level up, I wasn't able to make use of her level 10 invincibility until the last 10 minutes of the game, at which point we had already basically lost. She is also incredibly vulnerable to siege and arrows, I think that she should perhaps receive a little bit of a buff in resistance to ranged, considering how expensive she is. Also, glance in the mirror is utterly useless, if the negative effect were removed it would be useful.

Fourth, Palace Guards aren't really very great. The damage is nice, but honestly it isn't enough. They cannot survive in prolonged melee against much of anything. I think that the palace guards alone, due to their heavily armored look, should be the only unit able to research heavy armor as a default upgrade, and they should have a formation better than porcupine formation, something that gives some armor.

Fifth, the Elves late game powers aren't that great. The Rain doesn't do much damage to late game upgraded armies, and the boat can be overpowered by other powers, such as army of the dead. I think they should both be buffed, the boat by a small amount, the rain by a fair amount. Also, even with the spell which reduces cooldown times, my spells seemed to be taking a very long time to recharge. Cooldowns should perhaps receive a second look.

Sixth, the elves don't really have any great mass slayer heroes. The only decent mass slayer power is Legolas' Arrow Wind, which he doesn't get until level 10. I'm not really sure how to address this, maybe improve Grimbeorns powers? I also think he's a little too expensive, he's worth maybe at most 2000.

That's the majority of the points I can think of right now, I will post the replay of the game I'm talking about in the replays section for your enjoyment, and I'm sure I will have about 10 million people pointing out mistakes I made in game :P To sum it up, I would call Lorien the 2nd weakest faction in late game with the current balance, behind Rohan. They are especially weak against Gondor, who have the perfect roster to clean them up, either with tower guard spam or cavalry.

Hamanathnath:

--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am  2. Dez 2015, 05:10 ---So, I just had a long, epic 2v2 with Lothlorien, I'll post the replay in the replays section. There are many big issues that have come to bear, it seems that Lothlorien really are one of the weakest factions in late game. I'll list my points below.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Yeah I'm the one who fought KryPtik in this match, and I want to share my thoughts on this.  Before I start, KryPtik did upload this replay to the forums, so if you want to see the match for yourself, It is there. 

After a certain point in this match, there are only 3 units I am using, which were Tower Guards, Trebuchets, and Boromir.  Yes, there are a few times where I throw Beregond in, and there is one point where I make a Battering Ram.  But those 3 units is what is making up my army everytime.  Almost everytime before I leave my base, I make sure my Tower Guards have Heavy Armour and, if I could afford it, Banner Carriers.  I never bought Forged Blades for any unit.  From what I noticed, The defensivly upgraded Tower Guards, combined with their formation, and the lvl 5 leadership Boromir, caused my army to take very little damage from the Silverthorne Arrows being shoot at them.  While the Tower Guards were fighting, I used the Trebuchets to target enemy heroes, specifically Galadriel, because she is expensive and takes alot of damage from the Trebuchets.  After a while, both of us would go back to get more troops, and it repeated.

Now I understand why the Tower Guards were not taking much Damage.  However, my army, usually much smaller then his army, was able to survive volley after volley after volley of silverthorne arrows.  The damage they were taking was just surprisingly low.  I know thats someone is thinking that "Well because the Tower Guards were in their formation, why didnt the elves just hit and run?"  The reason for that is that if he ran away from my army, he would be leaving his Mirkwood outpost open, and it would not be a good idea to do that because I had Trebuchets.

It is hard for me to say that the damage Silverthrone Arrows do should be increased because this is just one game.  But its definately a possibility.  I also do agree that the Lothlorien mass-slayer, Legolas, was very ineffective in this match.  While I think he is very good, he was barely noticeable against the Tower Guards unless he used Arrow Wind. 

Many of the other points mentioned i have no comment on, due to the fact that I haven't played Lothlorien enough to know everything. 

Nevertheless, the match was fun regardless.  I think that, with my lower control of the map, and therefore lower economy, the Tower Guards I sent did a very good job, but perhaps too good. 

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
Alright, I watched the replay (which took quite a while and , to be honest, got a bit boring at some point, but I'll come to that) and I don't really agree with the two of you. It's not really about what mistakes KryptiK made, but more about what you spend your money on.

First of all: Silverthorn. Lorien has the strongest archers in the game, because the silverthorn arrows are the best ranged upgrade in the game. Their damage boost is larger than fire arrows by quite a bit, and additionally they offer the arguably better damage type (MAGIC as opposed to FLAME). But since Edain 4.0 lowered the damage archers do (which I am still very, very glad about), they can't do everything. On top of that, the heavy armor upgrade lowers the received ranged damage by 35%. Combine that with leveled tower guards, their formation and leadership bonuses and archers suddenly can't do much. Which leads to my main point, your money spending.

As both of you said, the Gondor player used nothing but tower guards and catapults (Boromir isn't important for this). He had nothing but upgraded pikes as his army. But you only used archers and your own pikes to fight them, although both of those are not very effective in this scenario.
Why did you never get melee Galadhrim? As swordsmen, the do more damage against pikes and with the latest version of Edain they get a 50%(!) buff on top of that. You never got Beornings because you were afraid of Rohan. Well, that's teamgames for you. Fighting 1v2 isn't the basis to discuss balance though, and just as your enemies supported each other, your ally could have send some of his own tower guards over to protect your Beornings. And you still had your own palace guard. Four or five Beornings would have done wonders for you, they do very nasty things to tower guards.

Next you complained that you were helpless against catapults. Well, you were, because you didn't get any ents. The catapults stood in his base, protected by tower guard and lots of towers ready to shoot the crap out of your infantry. So why didn't you get ents? Because you were afraid of the fire killing the ents instantly.
The thing is, you could have had several ents before Gondor even got his first trebuchet. You got longbows and silverthorn while your army consisted of pikes only, you got three upgrades in the sanctuary, you were spamming heroes nonstop. Just one ent alone would have been enough to force your enemy into an unfavourable situation where he has to leave his base to attack your ent(s), and you can hit him hard. Not to mention that he never gets to build catapults when he can't get to raise the building (what's it called in english?).
Even in the very late game, where he had two or three upgraded trebuchets, ents could have done some work. Keep them back and fire at the tower guards. Either he steps forward with his catapults so you can take them out or he loses the tower guard and you can then kill his catapults with your army. Again, it's about creating a favourable situation for yourself. In the replay you fought quite a few "bad" battles (which is why it got boring, you never changed it up^^), which is something you can't really do with Lorien.

So yea, that's my take on this.  Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and you couldn't have known everything while playing the match. But still, you were waiting in front of his base and couldn't get in since you didn't have any siege weapons. What did you get? MOAR ARCHERS. xD


Some isolated points: Turning Grimbeorn into more of a mass slayer sounds good to me. At the moment he is more of a strong melee fighter, which is a bit meh. Maybe this could be improved a bit (and his bees are still doing no damage, right?).

Regarding spells: The army of the dead overpowers anything and everything, which is why you get the fuck out when you see it xD. Standing still and trying to outheal it will not work. Vingilot would easily overpower the Rohirrim though. I'm still a bit unsure about the Tears, since they can get too strong very quickly when combined with all the stuns Lorien has. I'd have to use the more to judge this.

Galadriel isn't especially weak against catapults, heroes in general are. Three upgraded trebuchets would make any hero run away.

CragLord:
One thing which comes to my mind about this is would Elk ridders do something useful in that situation with their "Elven Skill" passive ability which should pierce heavy armor? They were also more mobile archer unit for this situation.
Maybe one solution for similar situation could be new activation ability for Charas Galathon Guards. As elite (or hero unit, I always get confused between those two terms) units which is limited to 3 battalions, I think they deserve better activation ability then current one.
I mean, it is really "poor" that they got knock back with less damage as special ability, maybe as solution we can propose some ability about heavy armour pierce but in some great amount, because it will be activation ability with effect of attack limited in time duration. I think that could solve current problem in some way.

Also, I haven't got time to watch your replay, but from reading comment of 3 Grades Cousain, I agree that you should play 1v1, so you could be more objective in situation concerning units and countering of enemy units. As he already mentioned, maybe some swordsmen could do decent job, but you wasn't able to produce them because you played against Rohan in same time.

I agree about Grimbeorn, actually, I would like to see him in more mass slayer role, and I agree about current price, 2600 is maybe too much.
Also I am for buffing of damage of Valar's Tears, I have also feeling that damage isn't so great in general (concerning damage), for power which is tier 4 in powers menu. But again, it is just my opinion.

Regards,
Crag

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