Lothlórien Balance Discussion

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

I think Caras galdhon guardians should have an abillity similar to black uruk archers, where whenever they hit a unit, it does 50% - 75% less damage . That could help with the unarmored elves problem.

[CragLord]

I think Caras galdhon guardians should have an abillity similar to black uruk archers, where whenever they hit a unit, it does 50% - 75% less damage . That could help with the unarmored elves problem.

As you have chance to read those comments again, if you read them again, you will find problem in high armor against arrows, in this particular case Tower guards are with their formation and armor upgrade OP against any range. So problem was in defence, not in attack or damage by those units. So why did you suggest something similar to passive ability of Black Uruks?  They reduce attack (damage which could be done by target units) of targets not their armor. So why you suggesting something this at first place? It is completely vice versa thing.

As I have said, some activation ability (in description similar to piercing shots or piercing heavy armor) which will do bonus damage on heavy armor units. That is in my opinion good and correlated suggestion with problem.
Also as Elite have said, Caras Galadhon Guardians as heroic battalion should have second ability as the most of heroic battalions in game, so there is definitely place for similar bonus damage ability for them.

P.S. Elite, what did you mean with this?

In regards to the Caras Galadhon Guardians, their activation ability actually doesn't work at all.

[Walküre]

P.S. Elite, how you mean this?

In regards to the Caras Galadhon Guardians, their activation ability actually doesn't work at all.

I'm quite sure that it was a bug of the previous patch, but it was consequently reported and fixed, if I remember correctly.

Last time I checked it worked rightly.

[CragLord]

I also tested it in game and it worked fine in this last patch, because of that I wanted to ask him, maybe he noticed in latest patch. That was my thought, to check.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

So I did some testing to make sure I wasn't just coming up with stuff and it turns out that you are actually right about ents. Their damage against tower guards with heavy armor and Boromir's leadership isn't that great, although Baumbart and Flinkbaum actually did get some results. And they still do aoe knockback, which is always nice to have. And they still would have given you the opportunity to push against his base, which you didn't have without siege weapons.

Melee Galadhrim with forged blades win a 1v1 against tower guard with heavy armor easily. I didn't even use the forest spell or any leaderships, which would make the fight even more one-sided.

Human Beornings eat tower guard for breakfast. They need only two attacks against them, even when they are upgraded and in their formation! I really don't know how you got the impression they sucked against them, especially considering they cost both less cp and resources^^
And even if Boromir is running around somewhere knocking them down - you got both Legolas and Celeborn to take care of him (which you did repeatedly anyway), so don't be afraid of that guy.

And he actually didn't beat you back until the very end where your buddy got overrun by Rohan, you were winning pretty much every engagement, even when it was by a close margin. And when you did have the upper hand and were about to wipe his army completely, you got doubled - which of course screwed you over. That's why he was sitting in base the entire time, while you controlled most of the map. You just lacked the siege weapons (I know, I'm repeating myself) to push against the base.

I think Caras galdhon guardians should have an abillity similar to black uruk archers, where whenever they hit a unit, it does 50% - 75% less damage . That could help with the unarmored elves problem.

I don't really think this solves anything. CG-Guardians are supposed to be killing stuff, not debuffing it so the rest of your army can kill it. Giving heroic archers a supportive function is the wrong way to go imho.

[Walküre]

I also tested it in game and it worked fine in this last patch, because of that I wanted to ask him, maybe he noticed in latest patch. That was my thought, to check.

As far as I know, it works fine in the latest patch.

So, it might even be a bug caused by the newest Beta, if it has been downloaded.
Anyway, I will definitely wait for what Elite will directly answer, as I don't want my mind to wander too much throughout pure speculations 

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, all I can say is that last time that I used Melee Galadhrim and Human Beornings against upgraded Tower Guards, they got slaughtered. I will try to improve my play in future matches to test this better. Also, I didn't realize that Thorn Arrows had been fixed, so that's my bad there.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Well, as I said, in hindsight everything is easy and obvious and talking about it is always easier than actually doing it. Ingame it's a very different story. You still played well, considering you got doubled a lot and your teammate didn't have the strongest performance

This still leaves the issue of gondor knights overperforming (at least) against Lorien, though.

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, I never really got a great chance to test palace guards against them, as Haman unfortunately went with Tower Guards. I personally am of the mind that both of Loriens Pike units need a passive ability to help them against cavalry. For the basic Lorien Pikeguard, I would recommend a short term damage boost against cavalry, and for Palace Guard a short term armor buff, since the Pikeguards are more offensive styled and the Palace Guards are more defensive styled. That's just my view though. I also still think it would make sense to give just the Palace Guard, no other unit, some form of Elven Armor, because even more so than the Galadhrim they look REALLY heavily armored.

I also still think that overall the Silverthorns are a little weak, Lorien is supposed to be THE Archer faction, but their damage is kind of underwhelming. Maybe a small boost, something like 25% more than current? All of my other points as well about Grimbeorn, the level 10 power points, beorning trample immunity, a second ability for Caras Galadhon Guardians, and the others that I made still stand as well, though they haven't been discussed much.

[IronSkye]

I have a small suggestion for you against trebuchets:
You can use upgraded Loriens sword men with their running ability to get to the enemies trebuchet kill it and then run back. This tactic works fine for me.

Like others wrote, if you use sword men you won't have problems against pikes anymore.

I also still think that overall the Silverthorns are a little weak, Lorien is supposed to be THE Archer faction, but their damage is kind of underwhelming. Maybe a small boost, something like 25% more than current? All of my other points as well about Grimbeorn, the level 10 power points, beorning trample immunity, a second ability for Caras Galadhon Guardians, and the others that I made still stand as well, though they haven't been discussed much.

To Silverthorns, yes the damage boost isn't that much like before 4.0, but if they boost it too much, the new counter system won't work anymore (archers shouldn't be good against every unit). They want that you use other units, not only archers.

To Grimbeorn, yes he could use some area damage.

To the Beorings, if they add a trample immunity, they would be to overpowered.
And Beorings have already a trample immunity in their bear form.

A second ability for Caras Galadhorn Guardians is okay, but please no copy of other units (especially -75% damage isn't needed). In German forum they made the suggestion, that they get the ability of the mirkwood archers additionally and that mirkwood archers get an shackle-shoot instead. The mirkwood swordmen should deal less damage and slow the enemy units additionally instead. So that the mirkwood fraction would be more a tanky fraction which purpose is to hold the enemy away from the Lorien troops. If I have time I will translate some more suggestions in English.

br Sky

[Hamanathnath]

The way I see it, most of the elite pikemen of each other faction has something other then the porcupine formation that made them unique  (Tower Guard armour formation, Cirith Ungol orcs being strong vs swordsmen and no cp, Rohan Westfold Pikes having the abilitys of the captain, and Erkenbrands summon Having a spear throw if I remember correctly, I feel like i'm missing one so feel free to tell me if I am)  The 2 factions that can only build 1 pikemen unit and/or have no elite pikemen (dwarves and Isengard) still have something unique that improves them (Uruk pikes can combine with Shield uruks, making them much more versatile, and Dwarves have are unique depending on what subfaction you choose. I can't remember the eredluin ability, but Erebor has the building weakener and Iron hills have the speed up ability.  And if i remember correctly, dale and laketown pikes have the standard porupine formation)  Again, tell me if any of this information is wrong.

I think that palace guards are missing a formation or unique ability that make them compareable to the other elite pikes.  Because while the porcupine formation has its uses, I think the palace guards should get something new.  Preferably something that increases their armor.  I think that may be enough to make them stronger,  without the need of a armour upgrade, but if its not, maybe slightly increasing their base armour values would be smart.

As for the lorien Pikeguard, i think their speed up ability is enough, but if they change the palace guards ability, i think giving them the porcupine formation would be good.

I don't have time to comment on your other points Elite KryPtik, but I will post when I do.

[IronSkye]

I think that palace guards are missing a formation or unique ability that make them compareable to the other elite pikes.  Because while the porcupine formation has its uses, I think the palace guards should get something new.  Preferably something that increases their armor.  I think that may be enough to make them stronger,  without the need of a armour upgrade, but if its not, maybe slightly increasing their base armour values would be smart.

They have a good formation which prohibits that enemies cavalry can pass entirely.
This power is quite strong if I am not mistaken.

[Odysseus]

You mean the Porcupine Tree formation? What exactly does it do anyway? I thought it would only protect pikemen and deal revenge trample damage in a 360 degree radius? I don't think it adds anything else to the Palace Guards, unless I am mistaken.

I had a thought for that formation, inspired by the one we saw in BOTFA. I might make a suggestion thread if anyone is interested?

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

It stops any cavalry dead in their tracks when they touch it. They get slowed down instantly, as if they were getting stuck in a clump of infantry.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Concerning CG-guardians:

In German forum they made the suggestion, that they get the ability of the mirkwood archers additionally and that mirkwood archers get an shackle-shoot instead.

That isn't exactly true. We were talking about giving this rapid fire ability to the Galadhrim in an attempt to rework certain Lothlorien units. Actually it was completely the opposite way arround, CG-guardians were supposed to shoot really slow, but deal very high damage, making them strong versus heroes, monsters or single-units in general, but rather weak against spam. (It was a pretty long concept, so I won't translate it here. Basically it was about giving every Lothlorien unit a specific place, without redundancies and without some units replacing others. It wasn't totally accepted though. )
Apart from that: Do the CG-guardians really need another combat ability? I'm asking this, because they essentially have the same role as regular Lothlorien-archers, don't enter the game earlier or later than fully upgraded archers, do not cost any more money than fully upgraded archers and all three together actually take up 360 CP which is a lot for a single unit. Therefore I think that too strong / too flexible CG-guardians would make Lothlorien-archers kind of redundant in LG. (Just the result of 5 different archer units in one faction. )
E.g. in the German forum we were taling about giving them permanent stealth (even while firing and away from trees). This together with high single target damage would make them an excellet sniper-unit.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir