[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Ents

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Melkor Bauglir:
Isn't Dark Galadriel a melee hero, therefore absolutely not capable of dealing with real defenses and thus no siege unit any more? This would BTW also be a problem for Huorns because if they are melee a fire bunker destroys them and if they are ranged I don't really see the point of them replacing the Ents in the first place. ;)
Not that I don't like the huorns, your ideas actually made me think about them a lot to the point that I myself did a little brainstorming about possible concepts, but such a change isn't really wise if you ask me.
What I however don't like are those roots: First of all, Lothlorien and too many cc-effects are a complete no-go for me -the archer faction really needs a weakness and being able to root, snare, slow, stun and fear the crap out of poor enemy forces giving them no chance at all ever to reach Lothlorien's troops would be a conceptual nightmare. I also don't see any room for such cc-effects, because Lorien already has a good amout of them or of other safe mechanisms. Secondly I know Old Man Willow did imprison some of the hobbits, but those idiots were leaning against his trunk. xD Being able to root entire groups of people on the move is just over the top in my opinion, to the point where I'd ask myself why the hell the huorn wouldn't just murder the trapped units by strangling or crushing their victims if it obviouly has the ability of growing vines and roots at such a speed, it can trap moving forces. Nevertheless, the first point is more important. :)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Odysseus:
Regarding your first point,

Dark Galadriel's attack against buildings remains the same. Her standard attack against infantry is changed to a more melee oriented attack, as you say. However, she also receives a mini-earthquake to deal with structures. If anything, that mini-eaerthquake could use some love, but that is for another topic.

About the Entmoot: As it stands, the Entmoot can repair itself if left alone for a while. This is quite a big thing. Imagine a level 2-3 Siege Works that can repair itself. Additionally, its hitbox is strangely...off; making it harder to be destroyed in close combat. I think the structure is fine as it is, but if it really needs to be done in some way, I'd advise the building to level up through production, like the Beorning hut, and then at level 2 or 3, defensive Huorn creeps could aid in protecting it. That way, your heavy investments could be rewarded further. Like an arrow tower.

Personally, I think the proposal is being overdone a little. It's like we are seeking some way to justify the Huorns simply as an addition. In that sense, as the Beornings have been nerfed, their hut is more fragile now too, and along that path it should have a way to defend itself as well, in my opinion. Bee creeps, pretty please. Either both, or none, I suppose.

Either way, I would like to wait before we change such a thing about Lothlorien. The faction has been out for less than a month; the Entmoot being able to repair itself quickly should be more than enough. Players have to better comprehend where and when to specifically build an entmoot.

Just my two cents.

CragLord:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 23. Nov 2015, 22:19 ---Isn't Dark Galadriel a melee hero, therefore absolutely not capable of dealing with real defenses and thus no siege unit any more? This would BTW also be a problem for Huorns because if they are melee a fire bunker destroys them and if they are ranged I don't really see the point of them replacing the Ents in the first place. ;)
Not that I don't like the huorns, your ideas actually made me think about them a lot to the point that I myself did a little brainstorming about possible concepts, but such a change isn't really wise if you ask me.

--- Ende Zitat ---
About Galadriel attack you get info from Odysseus. About Galadriel Dark form and Huorn it was just random thought as I can see. It was linked by corrupted nature so proposal was a logical from that aspect, but as you can see I was also against that. Huorns are mainly here proposed as some kind of defence for Entmoot, not as regular siege unit so far. It is proposed maybe, but that proposal have a lot of missing parts, so, no too much to say about it. And we should try to polish this to some good level. :)


--- Zitat ---What I however don't like are those roots: First of all, Lothlorien and too many cc-effects are a complete no-go for me -the archer faction really needs a weakness and being able to root, snare, slow, stun and fear the crap out of poor enemy forces giving them no chance at all ever to reach Lothlorien's troops would be a conceptual nightmare.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I agree that Lorien has a lot of side effect as faction, but you globalized this proposal to some higher level.
First, proposal about stances, as you could read in previous comments, it is mostly defensive mechanism for Entmoot, no matter what stance we choose. So I really don't understand you when you globalized this as those Hourns will be able to walk with army and use their stances in first front of battle. Simply this is reserved for defence of Entmoot, so don't globalize this to entire faction and those capabilities you described. There will be improvement but not in measure you describe.
If those proposals are too OP, simply we should try to make them less OP, not to reject them in some way. Simply that is my opinion about discussion in general. :) 


--- Zitat ---Secondly I know Old Man Willow did imprison some of the hobbits, but those idiots were leaning against his trunk. xD Being able to root entire groups of people on the move is just over the top in my opinion, to the point where I'd ask myself why the hell the huorn wouldn't just murder the trapped units by strangling or crushing their victims if it obviouly has the ability of growing vines and roots at such a speed, it can trap moving forces. Nevertheless, the first point is more important.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Melkor, I had some impression that you too much involving reality in general. :)
Don't mind me wrong, but this is not first time, I read something from your comment and then I realize you are taking so much facts from real life. :)
It is proposal, and yes it is possible for talking tree which is able to move. In this world we can propose I think that kind of "magic being" is capable of using their roots to share enemies and trap them. It was matter of concept mainly man, and you are refering to speed of growth. xD It is irrelevant ascertainment...
For the end, to be clear I would like those huorns as some kind of defensive mechanisam for Entmoot, and in same time I am trying to combine all lore facts we have about them, and that is why we suggested Old Willow and those abilities of sleepy song etc
I think it will be nice to think in this way, thats all. :)


--- Zitat von: Odysseus am 23. Nov 2015, 23:42 ---Regarding your first point,

Dark Galadriel's attack against buildings remains the same. Her standard attack against infantry is changed to a more melee oriented attack, as you say. However, she also receives a mini-earthquake to deal with structures. If anything, that mini-eaerthquake could use some love, but that is for another topic.

About the Entmoot: As it stands, the Entmoot can repair itself if left alone for a while. This is quite a big thing. Imagine a level 2-3 Siege Works that can repair itself. Additionally, its hitbox is strangely...off; making it harder to be destroyed in close combat. I think the structure is fine as it is, but if it really needs to be done in some way, I'd advise the building to level up through production, like the Beorning hut, and then at level 2 or 3, defensive Huorn creeps could aid in protecting it. That way, your heavy investments could be rewarded further. Like an arrow tower.

Personally, I think the proposal is being overdone a little. It's like we are seeking some way to justify the Huorns simply as an addition. In that sense, as the Beornings have been nerfed, their hut is more fragile now too, and along that path it should have a way to defend itself as well, in my opinion. Bee creeps, pretty please. Either both, or none, I suppose.

Either way, I would like to wait before we change such a thing about Lothlorien. The faction has been out for less than a month; the Entmoot being able to repair itself quickly should be more than enough. Players have to better comprehend where and when to specifically build an entmoot.

Just my two cents.

--- Ende Zitat ---
Concerning Entmoot repair, I haven't used that in concideration, but that is not big thing, expecially if we take into consideration that "its hitbox is strangely...off" should be fixed, because it is not reasonable to be able of repairing while it is attacked. I don't know is this bug, but anyway it should be changed, so its hitbox is on? I think it should be changed. Entmoot isn't gate or structure in process of building so hitbox is off.
If that is gonna be changed, then Entmoot has problem from defensive aspect. I think that current situation with hitbox is not right or logical.
Also I like your proposal about production leveling and of course you are for that huorn upgrade on higher level. I am fine with that, I was also thinking about it, it is really reasonable suggestion. Just what are you suggested for them? To have stance system or to be as builing part, not selectable? Something as Crimson King suggested in his last comment.
Yes, suggestion is maybe overdone, but some thoughts are important so we could polish suggestion in general. :) I agree that Lothlorien is pretty new and young as faction but this don't have to be instant proposal for next patch, simply take care about that. Maybe people here think that this will implemented right away if someone like it, but it is long process in the most cases, so I am encouraging futher development, and I call experienced members in gameplay term to leave their opinion mostly in balance way if this is concerning you or rest of members from this discussion.
I must say, balance things as cost of upgrade and similar (not these on which you are refering) should be left for the end of concept.
I will see when I find time to make comment with preview of all suggestions so far, or Necromancer can do that by editing his first comment. To be clear about all proposals. :)

Regards,
CragLord

The_Necromancer0:
OP has been edited, tell me if I have missed anything

Melkor Bauglir:
@CragLord:
You are right. Just as guardians of the Ent Moot this is of course no real problem.

--- Zitat ---Melkor, I had some impression that you too much involving reality in general. :)
--- Ende Zitat ---
About that: You might be right about this, but I see it a little different: It's not so much about reality (in which moving trees obviously don't exist), but about consistency (in which there are no roots which first grow extremely fast, catching moving people, but than can't just grow further crushing them). ;) I hope you see the difference, because just realism is of course not important in a fantasy world. However even a fantasy world has its rules and must follow them, otherwise it would be just a random mess of randomness. xD Like nobody would like it if suddenly aliens invade Middle-Earth: Just as unreal as moving trees, but completely inconsistent. ;)

I'm not really sure, what the repair stuff is about, normal buildings do repair themselves if left unchecked, so why not the Ent Moot? :o

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

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