[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Isengard Suggestions

Guards of Orthanc

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Walküre:

--- Zitat von: The Witch-King of Angmar am 30. Dez 2016, 09:46 ---I am a total noob when it comes to the books, so my question is: are we assuming they are Numenorians? is there an evidence? if they are not Numenorians then i think we must not make them ones.

--- Ende Zitat ---

If you browse my previous comments, you will see that I already gave my personal insights about why these guards should be of a Númenórean lineage (even though of a remote one) and that I explained a possible interpretation of the lore of said units. The problem is that the sources don't clarify exactly the nature of Saruman's sentinels and so permit us to move around a quite wide space of speculation. In brief words: one could suggest they be Númenóreans, as much as one another could legitimately propose something completely different.

So, the point I would address to back my thesis is uniqueness. Would it be more unique to dispose of particular units that relate to Isengard's past and to an even greater legacy, or to simply add other mere wild servants (that, by the way, resemble units already present in the faction)? In respect of Saruman's authoritative status, Isengard's legacy and of the other arguments of mine, that Númenórean touch would help the faction concretely, under many perspectives. I thus disagree with Melkor, which is really a very rare event...  xD

By the way, I like the image you crafted. With a bit more corruption, this could be a very clever addition. Nice art!

The Witch-King of Angmar:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 30. Dez 2016, 19:32 ---By the way, I like the image you crafted. With a bit more corruption, this could be a very clever addition. Nice art!

--- Ende Zitat ---
Thank you for your kind words :), i now understand your point of view, there is a point that make me disagree and i want your opinion about it, when Edain Team removed the snow trolls and limited the hit trolls(for the sake of the fans) from Angmar they said one of the reasons they did this because there was already 2 factions having trolls which is affecting the uniqueness of other factions, and i see the same problem with this case, there are already 2 factions contain the Númenóreans as heroic units [Mordor ,Angmar] (Mordor's Elite horsemen who can be recruited from minath morgol outpost and Angmar Mightiest evil men the black knights and the black guards) and i see those 2 factions have a higher priority to have these units way more than Isengard, Isengard  is specialized in The heavy strong Uruk-hais as its best fighting machines, why giving even an "important evil units Descend from higher legacy" to Isengard and Saruman who are already great on their own? not to forget those new units should not be as strong as the Uruk-hai in the game so i am not sure if they are worthy, they are basically just early/middle game defense unites, however i think we should also consider taking a look at TATW's description over these units and see if we can get any ideas or something useful i will past it here so everybody can take a look:

"Dunlendings handpicked by Saruman to guard Isengard have a mixed heritage as they can trace a part of their bloodline to the old Gondorian garrison that watched over the fortress in the early Third Age. During the Great Plague of 1636 Gondor's hold on the Gap of Rohan (not yet known as such during that time) weakened and the hereditary chieftains of Isengard intermingled with the local Dunlendings until Gondor's influence in the region completely disappeared. After a prolonged conflict with the Rohirrim Dunlendings were eventually driven out of Isengard by King Frealaf of Rohan. Now that Saruman has become the new master of Orthanc he has opened the gates of Isenguard to Dunlending loyalists once more. These men have a vested interest in preserving their new position as Guardians of Orthanc since their service to Saruman affords them greater rewards, status and safety within the walls. Unlike their less organized fellow tribesmen they train to fight as heavy infantry in defensive close order. Their thick armour is provided by Isengard's forges and shows some Gondorian influence in its design. These Dunlending custodians of Isengard are tough men who add another layer to Isengard's already almost impenetrable defenses."

Walküre:
It's exactly because this proposal would add a minor feature to the faction (non-playable units that patrol the citadel's perimeter for a given amount of time) that I felt to suggest the involvement of the Númenóreans' lore. Otherwise, I would never dare to suggest highly improbable eventualities, as Númenóreans (the real and 'pure' ones) being normally available as permanent units. I guess no one would like such outcome, and I have in fact made these premises very clear in my contributions to the concept. It's thus essential to consider the secondary role of this whole feature, whenever one might want to express a general judgment about the faction as well (how these units would fit in the gameplay and so on).

Connecting with the points above, the limited and temporary properties of the very concept make the comparison with other factions quite incorrect, since, concerning Mordor and Angmar, we're talking about true heroic units (implemented in a much simpler way than the clever mechanics we have discussed so far). The cases are so different that I can't see any issue regarding uniqueness arising for the reasons you referred to. The typology of implementation of the Guards of Orthanc is unique by itself (left aside their supposedly Númenórean ancestry). While Isengard can already make well usage of Dunlendings as a stable presence.

Is that quotation the official interpretation of the Third Age Total War Mod? I would nonetheless stick to my own opinions, given that the fact that those people were later welcomed by Saruman (as an additional defence) doesn't deny the possibility that loyal Númenóreans (who had been guarding Isengard since the 'merry' days of Saruman as the chief of the White Council) may have chosen to remain and to fully embrace their master's decay. The very description hints at the influence that Gondor (Númenórean culture) had on Isengard itself  ;)

I myself often have a kind of antiquarian mindset, which almost automatically makes me fall in love with things or concepts that have a strong linkage to a mysterious (usually lost) or noble past. I also picture proposals of this kind as a decent way to honour Arda's memories; therefore, whenever I envisage the just occasion, I always try to favour and work on said past-based proposals. As Isengard totally converts itself to the new religion of industry, these guards would still represent traces of a time that was.

Fredius:
I will let you lore-monsters decide on the matter if these guys should have Numenorean ancestry or not :P. On graphical matters; I love your design Witch-King, especially the helmet which resembles the form of the top of Orthanc (I think). Though that spear is a bit too "generic" for Middle-Earth, I would give it a different look ;). I will try to search for an image of a spear that complements your design.

Edit: While searching for different polearm designs, I came upon this:


I was thinking on the fourth one from the left. I'd imagine that the guards would wear some kind of ceremonial spear, that slightly resembles the tower of Orthanc. I think it would complement the helmet you drew very well. What do you guys think?

dkbluewizard:
Love it Fredius!

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