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Evil Men Faction

Yes an Evil Men faction would be great with all of the realms combined.
73 (64.6%)
I like the evil men the way they are now.
6 (5.3%)
I think they should not have a faction but i would like more units from the spellbook.
3 (2.7%)
Harad And Rhun should be two separate factions.
31 (27.4%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 110

Autor Thema: A possible new Evil Men faction  (Gelesen 9824 mal)

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #60 am: 30. Dez 2016, 16:07 »
Well I know your position LordofLinks.

I am more in favor (as you know) of a Dwarf implemented system. So you start off with a "Evil Men Fortress" and whatever faction you choose (Rhun or Harad) makes the Fortress that color.

The units I think would function very similarly. I mean, both would have swordsmen, spearmen, etc. I don't have to go into how different the 3 Dwarf kingdoms are, you can just see it with their units (IE axethrowers, crossbowmen, etc)

So I am more in favor of Evil Men being implemented the Dwarf way, that is why I suggest 4 ringheroes. Two for Harad and Two for Rhun, while incorporating your outpost ideas for each faction (Umbar for Harad, but Khand for Rhun).

I still feel we can implement all your ideas through this system and I think it would help evil in the factions department, now I know you stated that there would be 5 good and 5 evil, but if you really look at the factions in-depth and see what is posted on Edain Wiki, the final factions list would be as follows (with our ideas included):

Good
3 Men: Arnor, Gondor, Rohan
3 Dwarfs: Ered Luin, Iron Hills, Erebor
3 Elves: Imladris, Lothlorien, Dorwinion Court

Evil
Mordor, Isengard, Angmar
Misty Mountains, Dorwinion Cult
Rhun, Harad

So good will have 9 factions and evil 7, I would like to see Rhun and Harad implemented in the Evil Men faction this way not just for the above reason, but because Harad and Rhun were very distinct from each other. They CAN do it with the Dwarfs, I feel this can be done for this faction, No I KNOW it can be done for this faction.




Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Lord Aytugar

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #61 am: 1. Jan 2017, 08:44 »
Hey dkbluewizard

I have some ideas to share for this faction. I have written some of them on Moddb. My opinion about this 'Easterlings and Southrons' named faction is maybe not entirely but categoricly summer form of Angmar. General system is Rhun starts; wind mill, variag tent of Khand, corsair tavern of Umbar are settlements and Haradrim Camp is outpost. The relationship with Angmar is hero-center that meaning of the Witch King is Khamul for Rhun. We know Rhun was an alliance to Mordor at Khamul's time. However there is influence of Sauron and WK, not equally but similarly must be in this faction.

Buildings of Rhun can be wine-market(can be used for Dorwion also) ,seafood-market, armory(banner carrier,forged blades, shield for infantry and cavalry, fire arrows), barrack(rhun soldiers, archers, spearmen), stable(rhun riders, wainriders(selectable for wagon or chariot)), temple of Melkor(sorcerers and illusioners which use fire/flame and shadow), tower, statue of sauron.

On the settlements variang tent recruits axe-men infantry and cavalry. Orginally BFME 2 used corsairs for light infantry like Dunland clan for Isengard, i am intent to do it that way. So tavern should be on settlement and recruit corsair plunderers and archers, plus ballista, maybe assassins max 3 time.

Haradrim Camp is very questionable to be seperated faction. Being solo faction to Harad makes Rhun so weak. Also Harad do not have direct relationship to Sauron over a ringwraith. Rhun is more defensive but like half-cavalry faction, it cames from far lands. They do not have siege machines their own, to do that they need a settlement or an outpost. Agression of Harad is really force for Rhun. Their fortress can be like RJ Rotwk mod's: in the front statue of dragons can fires or snakes, buildings are farm, haradrim palace(haradrim warriors, archers, spearmen can switch throwing and black serpents max 3), mumakil pen(mumakils and half-trolls).

Rhun economy is based on trade so we need to use this. Building level up system is like dwarves when markets and wind mill get level 3, others would levels up except Temple. Temple can one level up after Fankil's created, then maybe Fankil gets level 5 because it is connected directly to Melkor through Fankil, not to economy.

Heroes would be Khamul the Black Easterling(building supporter?), Fankil(mage or unit support), Suladan(mass slayer), Saleme(hero killer), Brodda or Lorgan King of Rhun, Sakerlan King of Khand(could be building destroyer), Castamyr Lord of Umbar PJ ;)

Ring hero system is very different. These men do not have  an ethical rule nor discipline. Their reputation is not trusted or reliable. Everyone betrays the others when has the chance to be rich or get the power. So each hero must be ring hero but ones they picked up the ring they shall not have for second time. The influence of ring is different for every hero, Khamul and Fankil shine through but when the others get the ring can be rich or being a commander of large armies. Fankil can turn into a new Sauron and Khamul can make every allied building %25 faster.

For spellbook i will not say so much before approvement of these. Somehow it can be done, there are scorpions, snakes, sank storm, etc to use.

I hope it is not over powered. Heroes and their rolls or units can change actually everything can change. I just wonder what is your comment.

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #62 am: 1. Jan 2017, 12:14 »
Several things I would like to address Lord Aytugar, while some of your ideas are good others need to be worked on.

As far as some of the hero names are concerned, I feel you have done a good job at writing them out. However, as I stated, Fankil should not be with the Evil Men faction as he is a Maia and Evil has enough powerful evil maia on their side.

Now in regards to Khamul, he is implemented with Mordor, now I understand that you want him with Rhun like WK is with Angmar, but you have to remember that the Evil Men faction is during the time of WOTR, which means Khamul is acting out with Sauron's Mordor units. He cannot be a hero with this faction and I feel the Evil Men should have only "Evil Men" as heroes, much the same way Rohan doesn't have anyone outside of Middle Men/Rohirrim.

As I have stated earlier, I feel the Evil Men faction has to be done the way the Dwarfs are implemented, as I feel that is more canonical and true to their nature as Evil Men. They are just as likely to fight each other as anyone else (it is a power struggle).

Your ideas were good and I can tell some time and thought went into them (which I appreciate a lot) however, as stated earlier the system has to be split like the Dwarfs.

If it could be done, I would be in more favor of a Khand, Umbar, Rhun and Harad all being their own factions that we could pick from the Evil Men fortress with their being One Ring hero for each faction. I think this would be cool and then their would be 9 Good factions total and 9 Evil factions. Khand's subfaction could be Rhun and vice versa. Umbar's subfaction could be Harad and vice versa.

This may be too much work, but that would be the best system that would compliment everything we have done. LordofLinks, perhaps you could google drive this if you have the chance? Maybe we still need to flush some more things out though.

Thank you both for the awesome posts and ideas Lord Aytugar and LordofLinks, keep them coming!
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline lordoflinks

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #63 am: 1. Jan 2017, 14:01 »
Having all 4 men be their own fraction would be unfeasible; both from the fact you could not come up with enough unique buildings (I shudder at coming up with a whole roster of units and buildings for Khand) and it makes it seem they were all equal. They were not; really Umbar and Khand should be subfractions to Harad and Rhun respectively as while Umbar may be independent (Hello Melkor worshippers...) its not big enough to be its own fraction.
I shall create a document based on my concept which was one fraction; in such a case Rhun would have walls such as the ones seen in Glofindal's rhun map only with the roofs risen up so units can walk on them, and the walls become red upon researching the upgrade. After I have done so we can look into a dwarf system but first I would like you to see a visual representation of my concept. The King of Rhun is now named Dragon-King as a allusion to the fact that Khamul once held that title.
Final point in response to Lord Aytugar; I would not grant magic to Rhun as I felt they always were a evil gondor who had no need for it; rather I would give them weapons based on greek fire.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Offline Lord Aytugar

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #64 am: 1. Jan 2017, 21:31 »
Dkbluewizard, LordofLinks

I see both comments of yours and i understand the reasons of each idea. I understand my Khamul idea was not proper for that age. Despite i am not agaist the idea of dkbluewizard 2 separated factions, i think it is irrelevant strategicly. Rhun is defensive and Harad is not. Even spellbooks match entirely or ring hero systems rework, how can the tactical problem solve?

On the other hand lordoflinks's opinion is more fitting mine. Especially Tribal, Confederate and Imperial upgrade system is magnificent. But i prefer half-trolls instead of summon Variag army. Also Lone Tower spell is not suitable for this faction, i think scorpions or serpents or arrow valley make more sense. Generally the lore and your (ET) imagination bring out excellent results. Nevertheless i believe it would take a long time, i can not measure when will be the final of Edain Mod, i hope its come asap.

Thank you both for comments.

Offline lordoflinks

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #65 am: 3. Jan 2017, 06:00 »
I have come up with what I believe is the best compromise for an Evil Men fraction between those who wish for them to be separate and those who wish them to be in the same fraction, taking into account the community's feedback.
You can find it here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P6gcEVaor8HkBdzO3EOeDpMsIxbLHbjLiPUB0YBz6A4/edit

My reason for creating another thread is to hopefully create a thread similar to the Dorwinion thread where work on a single concept is being done; rather than the three or four that are floating in the Evil Men thread; and of course I hope this focuses discussion. I ask anything not related to my concept go in the other thread, so this one stays clear.

To those who feel Harad should be a separate fraction I do agree; but such a move would mean it would either have to be a new fraction, removing any chance the lovely Dorwinion concept could be implemented or use a Dwarf like system. The problem with that is that I believe it would mean Harad would have to have the same number of buildings are Rhun, meaning Rhun would either end up not having enough buildings or Harad would have too many, with respect to their portrayals to lore. I say this however, I think Harad works well as an outpost as it allows us to focus on the signature units of Harad, without coming up with standard units, and it represents their tribal nature well. Finally although one may argue it inaccurately portrays the Evil Men as a alliance that never fought each other, this fraction is set during the War of the Ring when they were united under Sauron's banner and there was little to no infighting. I would also like to say Harad, Khand and Umbar are implemented as Outposts, with each one having a unique way of upgrading their outpost.

The name "Men of the Shadow- Servants of Melkor" on the title page of the concept alludes to the fact that all of the Evil Men originally served Melkor, and at least the numenoreans still do.
« Letzte Änderung: 3. Jan 2017, 07:58 von lordoflinks »
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Online Walküre

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #66 am: 3. Jan 2017, 15:24 »
I understand the reasons why you would like your proposal to have its own reserved space, and I respect them. Just, the main Evil Men thread is supposed to gather all contributions that relate to that topic, and people have therefore voted for one of the options of the official poll.

You don't have to worry for order or comprehension issues, as I can easily modify the entire thread at will, editing comments at the beginning of the thread or even splitting topics from the primary course of the discussion. When the proper time comes, I will reorder everything and bring the thread to the public light of the Edain boards again. Fortunately, nothing gets lost in this forum. Your main concern should only be the one of discussing and developing your own ideas. Leave all the technical aspects to me, as this is my duty  :)

An excessive fragmentation of concepts or proliferation of new topics wouldn't help the other people during the phases of the debate. It's better to follow these guidelines for now.

Offline Lord Aytugar

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #67 am: 13. Jan 2017, 16:00 »
DieWalküre

I have heard some rumors about ending ET after MM released. Is this true? Evilmen and Dorwinion factions cancelled?

Offline Fredius

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #68 am: 13. Jan 2017, 16:05 »
Where did you get that info?

Online Walküre

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #69 am: 13. Jan 2017, 16:32 »
DieWalküre

I have heard some rumors about ending ET after MM released. Is this true? Evilmen and Dorwinion factions cancelled?

This is a totally unsubstantiated information. The Edain Team has not revealed anything concerning their plans after the Misty Mountains yet. What made you assume that they want to 'finish' the project in that way?

Offline Lord Aytugar

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #70 am: 13. Jan 2017, 17:52 »
Firstly a friend of mine from local forum site told me that FG15 denied repeatedly new factions after MM on moddb. Also he said implementation of these faction to BFME 1 system takes so many times and team will not do that and graduate. And after that i checked dorwinion consept link and it is broken. So i thought maybe i did not noticed this decision.

Offline The_Necromancer0

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #71 am: 13. Jan 2017, 18:01 »
The Dorwinion Concept link was only broken before it had been improperly linked, it was missing a parenthesis.
Here
and as a failsafe, here.
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Online Walküre

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #72 am: 13. Jan 2017, 18:16 »
Firstly a friend of mine from local forum site told me that FG15 denied repeatedly new factions after MM on moddb. Also he said implementation of these faction to BFME 1 system takes so many times and team will not do that and graduate.

Your friend probably assumed wrong things. I follow ModDB regularly and I've never read anything similar. The Edain Team has always stated that there is space left for two factions (after the Misty Mountains), but they never announced anything official of their plans yet (since there are other priorities). There is then a big difference from saying that they have no intention to work on future factions.

If you have any doubt whatsoever, just check the official news of ModDB or of MU, or simply ask Moderators. Otherwise, you're not likely to find reliable information elsewhere (especially from other people's rumours).

Offline Lord Aytugar

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #73 am: 13. Jan 2017, 19:42 »
The_Necromancer0 and DieWalküre

I want to thank you both. I never believed that idea, but i had to check this information. I called him friend because of forum courtesy not my friend. After the link of Dorwinion consept is broken, i had doubts but it is good to know that the mod is go on.

He said after Adamin left, others turn their way into their professionel lifes and Glorfindel53 will release Evil Men faction. I told him the mod will continue without depending one person. The best way is asking DieWalküre for confirmation, i thought. I will correct him as my pleasure :)

PS: I just learnt a word in German but i don't know it spells correctly but i hope it fits for this situation: Schadenfroh :)

Offline FG15

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #74 am: 14. Jan 2017, 14:55 »
Firstly a friend of mine from local forum site told me that FG15 denied repeatedly new factions after MM on moddb. Also he said implementation of these faction to BFME 1 system takes so many times and team will not do that and graduate. And after that i checked dorwinion consept link and it is broken. So i thought maybe i did not noticed this decision.

I have definetly never said anything of that kind. I don't know what your fried misunderstood.

There won't be any new factions before the Misty Mountains are released. Misty Mountains is the most complex faction because it doesn't completly use the BfME 1 building system. Also many other systems changed during the development of Edain 4.x, so Misty Mountains have to be adapted to these changes.

After all the factions are released, there are two more factions plannend, so concepts for new factions aren't needed. But these factions shouldn't be expected too soon.