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Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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Garlodur:
Hi there!

I wanted to share my thoughts on the topic since this is a topic that intrigues me a lot, and it encourages me that other members are so passionate about this reconceptualisation of Dwarven Ring heroes. I apologise if my thoughts seem all over the place, but I want to ask and introduce vital questions.


* Firstly, I agree that the proposed configuration of Ring heroes should exclude the option for King Dáin to accept the One Ring. This leaves us with Thorin Oakenshield, Lord Dáin of the Iron Hills and Durin VII (somewhere in Thorin Stonehelm's line) as Ring heroes for the respective Dwarven factions of Ered Luin, the Iron Hills, and Erebor. I believe that the fate of Durin VII as a new Ring hero is indeed strongly connected to that of the other two.

* Secondly, I am satisfied with the way the canon knowledge on Durin has been incorporated into this concept, although I find it a very significantly unsupported assumption that Durin VII is the son of Thorin III. The royal family tree of Durin's line is the only source that confirms descendance but the dotted line indicates an indirect relation that might span several generations. Nonetheless, I am willing to accept this proposal on the same ground the Last Alliance spell has a place in the mod, being the iconic meaning of the most legendary Dwarf (in resurrection).

I propose therefore to leave out the backstory around Hannar (who is also completely made up, besides being based on a loose premise). It seems Aule and dkbluewizard have come around to a similar conclusion. I want to strengthen their reasoning with the following argument: the spirit of Durin is resurrected in a new body wHich he then makes resemble that of previous namebearer. This explains on the one hand why nothing is spoken of a Durin after the death of Durin VI for thousands of years, and on the other hand it shows the uncertainty around the beginning and end of the lives of Durin II till Durin VI with regards to dates. I take the liberty to interpret these facts that Durin's spirit chooses when to resurrect in a new body. The argument of necessary resemblance between all Durin is hard to maintain for this reason, at least in physical form. Certainly, the Dwarves must have built statues to honour their kings but those could have perished in the ruins of Gundabad and Moria and even the First Age Blue Mountains settlements. I argue that the spiritual resemblance is more important to the Dwarves who recognise the exceptional skill in masonry, weapon arts and leadership as almost out of their nature. Furthermore, the decreased importance of physical resemblance allows for the new interpretation of every Durin not being directly related to each other. This way, only a very particular Dwarf with the right mental capabilities will be chosen to incorporate Durin's spirit.

 In game, this is best translated as Durin VII instantly summoning on the battlefield as King Dáin collects the Ring, to imagine the reawakening of Durin's spirit in a new Dwarven body.

* Thirdly, concerning the in-game implementation I have a few ideas to make the design stand out next to other Ring Heroes. I agree that somehow the individual progress as a hero must be reflected in Durin VII, from accepting the burden as an outstanding warrior and tactician to succeeding in carrying it as a mighty Dwarf lord with strong leadership and unyielding endurance.

AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: Garlodur am 29. Jul 2017, 15:51 ---I propose therefore to leave out the backstory around Hannar (who is also completely made up, besides being based on a loose premise). It seems Aule and dkbluewizard have come around to a similar conclusion.

--- Ende Zitat ---

exactly Garlodur! we decide to leave hannar to the background story. he's useful to introduce the character in the timeline. And also it was cool to make something by our interpretation, to give the character a sort of personality :). 
However as you said, in game he will appear directly as Durin VII, with a mysterious aura around him as in the lore.


--- Zitat von: Garlodur am 29. Jul 2017, 15:51 ---Thirdly, concerning the in-game implementation I have a few ideas to make the design stand out next to other Ring Heroes. I agree that somehow the individual progress as a hero must be reflected in Durin VII, from accepting the burden as an outstanding warrior and tactician to succeeding in carrying it as a mighty Dwarf lord with strong leadership and unyielding endurance.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Feel yourself free to share your ideas about it :)
Given story and lore consolidated, the last part about Durin VII in game is still work in progress and open to suggestion. I think the most important abilities won't change so much (they mostly resemble the ones of Durin I), a part of minor details, but for example i'm improving the balance, make his escalation to power slower  ;)
The models design i finally conceived, it seems the best one to condense the old design with something new.


(Durin VII initial equipment)               (Durin VII legendary equipment)
The first (rank 1 to 5), looks more like a young brave warrior of Erebor.
The second (rank 5 to 10) is him after he complete his path with the reconquest  of Moria :)

PS: guys, for now, consindering the enthusiasm and new ideas about Durin VII and dwarves ring system, i deleted the FOR/AGAINST list, i'm gonna create it again when the separate thread will be created, given ALL the ideas about the main core as mostly consolidated.

dkbluewizard:
Garlodur, I would argue on the premise of the dotted lines. Most of that shows when kings ruled, this is true. But if you go by Tolkien's timeline and the lore that is actually written, the Dwarfs are suppose to disappear in the 4th Age, there is simply just not enough time for all those generations as you speak.

This is what we know of Durin VII: He is a descendant of Thorin III (a son is also considered a descendant), Durin's have great longevity as far as Dwarfs go, Durin VII PROCLAIMED himself in the 4th age, not necessarily meaning that he was born in the 4th age, and finally, based on the background of all Durins we know that they were great smiths, warriors, and the Dwarfs considered them each to be reincarnated.

If it is just for the lore standards not EXPLICITLY stating that Durin VII is Thorin III's son--then it wouldn't matter as Durin VII even as a grandson would still fit the timeline. Don't get hung up on the semantics.

Truth is, for Durin VII to exist, reconquer Moria, and then disappear in the 4th age, then the timeline has to be presented the way I presented it. There is just not enough time for all the generations. I like what you stated in your reply about Lord Dain, Thorin II, and Durin VII Garlodur--but the lines could mean how long one rules. So after Thorin III dies, Durin VII could have ruled all those generations until the diminishing of the Dwarfs, as was Tolkien's intent. 

AulëTheSmith:
There is not a clear reference in the lore regarding the specific issue about if he is or is not the son of Thorin III. anyway i think the timeline of dk is reasonable. The very fact, which i strongly agree with dkblue and which makes his implemenatation in game feasible (even if is not as Hannar as i said before), is that  i believe is reasonable to think he's born in the third age, and he's the last king right after Thorin III. if it is the last heir of Durin, is lore-friendly the idea that he's blessed with exceptional long life, such as he could rule in the 4th age also.

Garlodur:

--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 29. Jul 2017, 18:14 ---Garlodur, I would argue on the premise of the dotted lines. Most of that shows when kings ruled, this is true. But if you go by Tolkien's timeline and the lore that is actually written, the Dwarfs are suppose to disappear in the 4th Age, there is simply just not enough time for all those generations as you speak.

This is what we know of Durin VII: He is a descendant of Thorin III (a son is also considered a descendant), Durin's have great longevity as far as Dwarfs go, Durin VII PROCLAIMED himself in the 4th age, not necessarily meaning that he was born in the 4th age, and finally, based on the background of all Durins we know that they were great smiths, warriors, and the Dwarfs considered them each to be reincarnated.

If it is just for the lore standards not EXPLICITLY stating that Durin VII is Thorin III's son--then it wouldn't matter as Durin VII even as a grandson would still fit the timeline. Don't get hung up on the semantics.

Truth is, for Durin VII to exist, reconquer Moria, and then disappear in the 4th age, then the timeline has to be presented the way I presented it. There is just not enough time for all the generations. I like what you stated in your reply about Lord Dain, Thorin II, and Durin VII Garlodur--but the lines could mean how long one rules. So after Thorin III dies, Durin VII could have ruled all those generations until the diminishing of the Dwarfs, as was Tolkien's intent.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Don't worry dk, I accept your reasoning for the sake of implementing Durin. I might not agree 100% with it but since this mod is only set at the end of the Third Age we have to deal with the inconsistency. Nonetheless it needs to become clear for what reason Durin deserves to be in the mod despite this time inconsistency. It is just something the main presenters of the proposal have to consider and write with utmost delicacy.

Thank you for your invitation Aule. I meant to write it all in one post but I lacked time. Simply put I suggest a sort of challenges system akin to the Necromancer's to symbolise the advent of Durin as an accepted Dwarf Lord. Such a system I feel is required to distinguish him from the other Dwarven Ring heroes and to give him extra attention.Also some sort of risk needs to be included because the Erebor gains another hero. This obviously requires to reconsider Durin's role in the faction that doesn't exceed the increase in power that Thorin II and Lord Dáin get when accepting the Ring. Besides, I want to mention how different this suggestion is from the Imladris Fellowship: they also spawn as  new battalion but they are in accordance to Elrond's role as mass slayer. It is another comparison that should be kept in mind when considering the intricacy and strength of Durin's character.

To the actual concept. I like the idea of a separate expedition to Moria solely for Durin VII to prove himself and to regain his long lost equipment. This will be in the form of an ability activated only once, which will transform the initial design to the legendary outfit. As a requirement to unlock this ability Durin will have to complete three challenges. These will follow his role as an allround supporter, thus taking the shape of one building buff, one hero buff and one unit buff. The basic set-up will mean that DurinVII spawns as a might warrior that is restricted to level 1, who forth needs to accomplish certain tests to prove his spirit, literally. After completing them, he will initiate the journey to Moria and return as a lord, being free to level up. This idea I got from the same Die Vierte Zeitalter mod that has brought you the models of Hannar. I don't quite know yet how to implement such challenges yet, which is why I want to share the idea with all of you. The fifth palantir slot is a passive that explains his unique levelling system and incorporates a form of leadership. Perhaps a nice place to reintroduce Durin's Day to the Dwarves, as a way to symbolise the pending rise to power.

I hope to have sparked some more debate. In the meantime I will reflect on possible challenges and the drawbacks of such a system.

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