New Angmar Ringhero

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, if you took your proposals for Witch King, which are excellent, and stood them off against Necro's proposals, just changing it to not restrict recruitment of anybody but the Witch King, then it would be fairly close. Maybe slightly leaning towards Witch King being better, but close enough to be worth making a decision at the time.

[OakenShield224]

Thanks for the support and arguments for the ideas. I guess we'll just wait for what Necro says about it.

[The_Necromancer0]

I must admit now, thinking about it Kryptik has a point. The number of units that one would no longer be able to recruit is too heavy of a cost. It would make sense if we further buffed Mornamarth but the current proposal doesn't do that enough. So, I agree on not having the recruitment of units and heroes restricted apart from WK. However, I'm on the side of the timer, since it makes sense lore wise (in my opinion) and opens up more possibilities for the WK's return. As I see it the WK will either come down from Carn Dum when he hears that Mornamarth has found and stolen the One Ring (previously unrecruited) or he will come back from Mordor furious after having been betrayed (previously recruited). I think this one should definitely stay.

Oakenshield's WK proposal sounds great I definitely agree with a lot of that. Only small change I'd like to see is how the effect is distributed. That's just my personal thoughts on the matter but I feel like all the effects should vary depending on how far units are from the WK. For the movement and attack speed debuff I would propose something like that:

• Small Radius Around WK: 20%
• Large Radius Around WK 15%
• Map Wide: 10%

For the cooldown and healrate speed I was thinking:

• Map Wide: 10%
• Medium Radius around WK: 15%

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[lordoflinks]

Once a formal proposal is drawn up I would be more than happy to support this.
The only thing I wish to add is that my major problem with AKW's mechanic at the moment is when you get the ring there is no feeling of award for getting it (At least it is not a punishment, like Iron Hills Dain) as it does not unlock anything new on the Witch-King himself, yes it has a passive effect but the player does not feel it. My suggestion would be in addition to passive improvements for the Ring to allow the Witch-King to mount a frost drake of the North, to rework a much missed element of Angmar, and to upgrade Harbinger of Winter, if an upgrade to the ability could be balanced.

[OakenShield224]

The passive improvements would be a part of Harbinger of Winter. I agree with the range changes that Necro proposed. A couple of active suggestions could be:
 - Mount Frost Drake of the North (thanks to lordoflinks for the idea).
 - Might of the Witch King become permanent.
 - Death Blade is permanently replaced by Life-Drinking Blade (doesn't need level 10). Would deal more damage as well as reducing enemy damage by 40% instead of the current 30%.
 - The Frostbite passive that I suggested previously that would damage nearby enemies with less than 20% health.
I hope at least one of these ideas would be accepted.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

I wrote this in a hurry so i apologize for any english errors,

I am completly against a new ring hero for Angmar, because the witch-king is basically the faction itself the hole characteristic of the faction is foucsed on him and how he unites all types of evil forces under his banner to bring ruin to free people, and giving the ring to another hero means giving him the faction itself is such mess and it destroyes the core of the faction, we should not forget that werewolfs are breed by the witch-king, the head of all sorcery in angmar is the witch-king, the barrow wights would not exist if its not for the witch-king, zaphragor(the first blade of the witch-king) serves only the witch-king i can see him prefer dying instead of serveing mormorath, same thing goes for gulzar, and so on, hell even the units quotes is all about the witch-king, (build it for the witch-king - the forces of the witchking are victorus - i speak with the witch-king's voice - the building belongs to the witch-king now -..........etc) the orcs of gundaband and the trolls of the hills agreed to serve the witch-king but can you realy expect them to serve mormorath just because he found the ring? or will they kill him instead? if you realy wants to see 2 ring heroes in an evil faction i can say Rhun and Harad are your best choice if they came to be the last 2 missing factions.

if there is a way to implement the dragons of the north in Angmar again, i would totally agree and support it, i was thinking in making the witch-king able to ride one of these dragons once he hits level 10, or he can only get his dragon once you get the stronghold of the iron crown making that spell a bit more useful.

[TheDarkOne]

I am completly against a new ring hero for Angmar, because the witch-king is basically the faction itself the hole characteristic of the faction is foucsed on him and how he unites all types of evil forces under his banner to bring ruin to free people, and giving the ring to another hero means giving him the faction itself is such mess and it destroyes the core of the faction, we should not forget that werewolfs are breed by the witch-king, the head of all sorcery in angmar is the witch-king, the barrow wights would not exist if its not for the witch-king, zaphragor(the first blade of the witch-king) serves only the witch-king i can see him prefer dying instead of serveing mormorath, same thing goes for gulzar, and so on, hell even the units quotes is all about the witch-king, (build it for the witch-king - the forces of the witchking are victorus - i speak with the witch-king's voice - the building belongs to the witch-king now -..........etc) the orcs of gundaband and the trolls of the hills agreed to serve the witch-king but can you realy expect them to serve mormorath just because he found the ring?

We can expect them to serve him if he banishes the WK and takes his armor so they would mistake him for now ex-leader of Angmar so noone would leave Angmar ranks after that event. Even if they do I won't go against of it.

Though WK is a totally wretched hero due to his immense cost and equally low efficiency (spells are poor, stats are poor), Lieutenant of Carn Dum proves to be a much more durable and efficient hero. He greatly supports an army of Dark Dunedain and can replenish his depleted health to stay alive. He can be recruited much easier and faster. And while I hate the fact that I mostly have to keep Ring WK out of combat due to his vulnerability and his permanent debuff over the enemies (I only recruit the WK if the ring was found, so basically I pay 3000 res for that debuff), there won't be any reason to do so with Mornamarth.

And the background story of Mornamarth is... curiously suitable to become a Ring Hero. Even with all potential setbacks.

[The_Necromancer0]

In addition, if I may, wielding the power of the One Ring would be enough, I assume, to bind all those who oppose him to his will. The Wights and the Werewolves are no more than beasts and can easily be controlled. The Sorcerers are smart, they know better not to get in his way and they only seek power. As for the wildmen, fear will drive them to do as they are ordered.

The heroes are the only current problem I found, they are strong willed beings which would not serve Mornamarth apart from a few. They would fight him or flee the kingdom, however as it was previously discussed that would be too much of a downside. Any suggestion is welcome for that one.

I'll also update my post with the most recent addition from the discussion, it would be nice if the same could be done to the Original Post but that's up to Chiska.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

As the Witch-king demands absolute loyalty from his subjects, Angmar is a faction of sacrifice.

These words were typed by Edain Team

Its realy out of place to see a 'rebellion' in a loyalty and sacrifice based faction,not to mention the ringhero system you are suggesting is actually pretty similer to Boromir in Gondor since he also takes the ring and becomes the king and grant a great support to Gondor  pretty much just like how you want Mormorath so the ring system you want is not unique at all gameplay wise, but to see Boromir taking over in Gondor is not bad at all lore-wise since it barly had any king, (also in game you cant make Aragon king unless he lvl up so much), unlike Angmar which is ruled by an iron hand from the start.

You are saying The Witch-King is useless due to his spells and stats so the solution is to get another ring hero because he will be a better leader?
i am not buying that logic, The Witch-King will still be weak and the faction core is now dead, however i agree that he is too little too weak, his stats&spells can realy use a buff.

my ideas for buffing him is the following:

• Might of The Witch-King effect can be permanent once he hits level 9/10.
• the soilders he kills with morgo blade&life drinking blade have 30% chance to turn temporary into barrow wights.
• his knock back attack radius(area effect) should get bigger.
• add some health points and damage points.

On a defreant note, i saw a really nice suggestion in one of the replays above, for ringhero system for the witch-king, instead of using the ring to cast winter on the entire map which means you have to keep him in your base (out of fight) to keep that debuff, he could become a thrall master himself resembling Angmar style it will be like this:

"Once the witch king find his master's ring he use his powerfull sorcery to summon the other nazguls with their heavy armor to form a battalion of 9 heroes with one thing on their minds "guard the one ring of power at all costs" the ring will drop when the last nazgul fall dead."

The important part in this system is the witch-king is not actually wearing the ring but just carrying it and if he dies another nazgul will pick it up untill they all die or be victorious, "completly lore friendly"

And for Sauron their is nothing more important than getting the one ring thats why he will send all of them to the witch-king without Hesitate.

[OakenShield224]

Necro, maybe you could mention in your revised idea that those increased debuffs for WK are for Ring Hero.
 
@The Witch-King of Angmar
The Edain Team have said that Angmar is made up of different factions that are held together by the Witch King. Zaphragor only joined because the Witch King was "a ruler with the power to enforce unity among Numenoreans and Hillmen, to dominate the wild Orcs and beasts of the wastes and forge a kingdom strong enough to conquer all in its path." (quote from the Team). Helegwen only joined because Arnor restricted her abilities while Angmar let her rise as high as she could. The Men of Carn Dum are just trying to become more powerful and Mornamarth in particular wants to rule Angmar. If he had a weapon that would let this happen, do you not think that he would try to take over?

If the others just want a leader strong enough to let them become as powerful as possible but also keep control of all armies, would they really care who he is? As Necro said, the Ring would be enough to bind the armies towards him, giving him control over the minds of others. The Men of Carn Dum soldiers would follow him anyway due to their loyalty, while the others would be held together through fear, greed, promise of revenge against Arnor, and the One Ring (essentially what it is now, just with the Ring as well).

If Mornamarth became Ring Hero, then the user would be forced to make a choice about what to do (something that only Gondor, Arnor and Lorien offer). You could either go for the Global Debuff and Mass Slayer (+any other effect we add to WK) or you could go for Unit Support and Minor Mass slaying. It would add an extra element of strategy to Angmar.

[The_Necromancer0]

Angmar is anything but a loyalty faction, just because the Witch-King demands doesn't mean that he actually gets it. Gulzar, Zaphragor are the only truly loyal beings under his command. As I previously stated, the sorcerers seek power, the wights and werewolves are beasts under his command. The Men of Rhudaur are also quite loyal, but they are only a minor force which can easily be overcome by fear. The Men of Carn Dum are merely here to gain power and wealth just like Helegwen and you guessed it Mornamarth. And if we're going for lore friendliness:

The Witch-king knows well that while Mornamarth is a great asset, he is not truly loyal to anyone and is best kept on a short leash. For his part, Mornamarth burns to rule Angmar himself one day, but for now he bides his time and builds his power by destroying Angmar's enemies.

Indeed, the system is quite similar to Boromir's however it does bare its fair share of differences. In addition this is completely lore wise, as you can clearly see by the quote provided above. Angmar may be ruled by an Iron Hand straight from the start but most are either there against their will or they are here because the Witch-King is currently the strongest, if somebody stronger arises they will follow him in hopes of gaining more power. As you can see that was clearly indicated in the initial proposal but decided against later because of how much of a disadvantage it became.

As for your counter proposal, isn't that quite similar to Imladris's Ring Hero system? It's a perfectly acceptable proposal, although not my favorite, I much prefer the eternal winter idea.

EDIT: Posted before seeing Oakenshield's post
@Oakenshield: Will take care of that

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

You want to give the one ring of power and throw the witch-king of his kindom(souron's second in command)to take Angmar itself to a character that not even in the books by using an already used ringhero system, if you manage to convince the team to do this idea, then you are using black magic , the witch-king is literally the only character from the books that we know in Angmar, the whole basic concept of Angmar refers to the witch-king's power acquisition as Ealendril mentioned.

Dont forget that the Witch King is the central person of the faction and the whole basic concept refers to his power acquisition. It would be mechanically poor when the core figure of the faction is replaced at once by another hero, and thereby becomes unimportant. These are conceptual and game mechanical elements that must be adhered to.

I understand your motivation behind your idea and i know it will give the player the choice of what to do with the ring but look at the cost you paied, the faction core is literally destroyed.

Having one ring hero using unique system is more than enough for every faction, if gondor, lothorien and arnor have more than one ring hero/system does not mean Angmar has to be like them.

Its true that the ring system i suggested is similer to imladris's one execpt that elrond is not part of the ring battalion unlike the witch-king, however i find it a good trade to fix the little lore problem that seems to bother some players how the witch-king uses the ring, however i dont mind the current system too.
 

[The_Necromancer0]

As long as Edain is concerned the heroes of Angmar are as canon as anything else to my eyes, so the lore argument doesn't apply here since Angmar is mostly made up of stuff that doesn't exist since there was so little in the books about them. Also, you should be careful with quotes, here Ealendril wasn't referring to the idea of a secondary ring hero but to the idea of having Sauron be recruitable  once the ring is gained "another hero" refers to Sauron. Here is the complete quote:

Dont forget that the Witch King is the central person of the faction and the whole basic concept refers to his power acquisition. It would be mechanically poor when the core figure of the faction is replaced at once by another hero, and thereby becomes unimportant. These are conceptual and game mechanical elements that must be adhered to. Therefore there will be no Sauron in Angmar.

As for the faction core, you should have no worries. At the beginning of the debate it was indeed considered to restrict the recruitments but that has since been decided against as I previously stated. The core of Angmar's faction is not the Witch King, he is the central hero of the faction, that is not the same although I wouldn't be able to tell you what the core of Angmar is.

The base of this idea, which got me to propose a secondary ring hero for this faction as opposed to another, is that Angmar is meant to oppose Arnor/Gondor which both have two Ring Heroes.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Wut?, i never said Ealendril was talking about mormarath i know he was talking about sauron but what does it matter? what he said applies also to mormarath as ringhero as well, the concept of his words is what important, i think you misunderstanded my point, the core of angmar is not the witch-king? you think that because of the possiblity you talked about of his army betraying him? i dont think you and me have the same idea of what a core of faction is.

 "It would be mechanically poor when the core figure of the faction is replaced at once by another hero, and thereby becomes unimportant" tell me friend, when mormarath takes the ring and take over the witch-king's kindom isnt he "replacing him thereby making him unimportant"?

The base of this idea, which got me to propose a secondary ring hero for this faction as opposed to another, is that Angmar is meant to oppose Arnor/Gondor which both have two Ring Heroes.

That doesnt mean to copy gameplay mechanics from other faction, further more, Angmar was never meant to be only an evil counter part of arnor its much more than that, it has its own unique Identity as every other faction so it doesnt matter if arnor have 2 ring heroes.

[OakenShield224]

The idea of the faction is of different groups trying to become more powerful (even at the expense of others) with one strong figure tying them all together. Pretty much everyone in Angmar (apart from Wights and Wolves obviously) decided to follow the WK because he was more powerful than Arnor and could therefore offer them more. It wasn't his name or his status as a Nazgul that made people follow him. It was his power and the opportunities it presented. Put it this way: If you were a soldier working for the Witch King and then another figure turned up who is even more powerful, would you stick with the Witch King or go to the more powerful ruler so it would turn out better for you?

I understand what you are saying about a key figure being replaced by someone else. However, would you class Boromir as the most important or prominent hero of Gondor? I'd probably give that role to Aragorn or Gandalf. However, Boromir can be given the Ring and in that moment, he becomes the most important hero of the faction as everything is focused on him. In Necro's plan, the Witch King would still be important due to the threat of his return (represented by the timer). Some extra effect could be added when Witch King returns (e.g. station units around all buildings to keep control and prevent rebellion) or as a passive while Mornamarth is ruler (not sure about what this could be although I'm sure we can think of something).