[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions
Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: korner am 17. Okt 2015, 19:23 ---This has been discussed several times now, and all the pros and cons are still the same...
I am against implementation of ram riders, no matter which way (summon, recruitable or whatever).
Why?
Dwarves are an infantery faction. They don´t have cavalry and I like that.
I actually play dwarves most of the time and always wish I had cavalry - but wouldn´t it be too easy and too standard? Best infantry + best heroes + cavalry would be too much, no more challenge any longer.
Rams = not canon. correct
Battle Waggons = not canon. correct. BUT they are in the game since the original EA-Games release and people are simply used to them. AND: they are unique.
Rohan is best example in comparison:
They rely mostly (or should mostly rely on) cavalry. They only have very weak infantry. All sorts of people want stronger infantry for Rohan, but that would destroy the character of the faction and the Edain team always rejected requests for stronger infantry.
Summa summarum:
I won´t die if rams would be implemented, but I like the lack of cavalry among the dwarves. I wouldn´t like that be changed.
--- Ende Zitat ---
And I could say that is your opinion and I respect it!
See korner, just do comparison (in content term) of your first comment in this topic (where you started with OMG,REALLY etc, it was pretty insulting to people who support this idea!) and this comment, and I hope you will get why I started to discuss with you at first place. I never had bad intention on this forum in any meaning of that word!
Regards
Skeeverboy:
--- Zitat ---Having studied history myself I can tell you that EVERY faction needs a cavalry unit. The reason for that is very simple; to counter artillery and archers. Armies who completely rely on infantry would be annihilated by armies who have superior archers. The best way to counter archers is too send in cavalry who can deal with them quickly, without losing to much infantry. Especially for slow Dwarves who would likely be killed by archers before they even could reach the enemy. People who are against Rams; please keep that in mind!
Now I understand that this is just a game and the archery system is not super realistic in BFME, but if you want to make this mod more realistic then it's only smart to give EVEN the Dwarves a cavalry unit.
--- Ende Zitat ---
For this the Dwarvens have at the moment Battle Wagons. They can kill bows and artillery very fast and easy.
I find that the Dwarvens don't need a other cavallery unit, because I think that the Battle Wagon sufficient.
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: Skeeverboy am 17. Okt 2015, 19:49 ---
--- Zitat ---Having studied history myself I can tell you that EVERY faction needs a cavalry unit. The reason for that is very simple; to counter artillery and archers. Armies who completely rely on infantry would be annihilated by armies who have superior archers. The best way to counter archers is too send in cavalry who can deal with them quickly, without losing to much infantry. Especially for slow Dwarves who would likely be killed by archers before they even could reach the enemy. People who are against Rams; please keep that in mind!
Now I understand that this is just a game and the archery system is not super realistic in BFME, but if you want to make this mod more realistic then it's only smart to give EVEN the Dwarves a cavalry unit.
--- Ende Zitat ---
For this the Dwarvens have at the moment Battle Wagons. They can kill bows and artillery very fast and easy.
I find that the Dwarvens don't need a other cavallery unit, because I think that the Battle Wagon sufficient.
--- Ende Zitat ---
That is true, but wagons are so damn weak in offensive, and you could use them only for supportive roles. That is also one of reasons why I think rams are needed as standard cavalry knock back offensive units...
NetoD20:
--- Zitat von: korner am 17. Okt 2015, 19:23 ---This has been discussed several times now, and all the pros and cons are still the same...
I am against implementation of ram riders, no matter which way (summon, recruitable or whatever).
Why?
Dwarves are an infantery faction. They don´t have cavalry and I like that.
I actually play dwarves most of the time and always wish I had cavalry - but wouldn´t it be too easy and too standard? Best infantry + best heroes + cavalry would be too much, no more challenge any longer.
Rams = not canon. correct
Battle Waggons = not canon. correct. BUT they are in the game since the original EA-Games release and people are simply used to them. AND: they are unique.
Rohan is best example in comparison:
They rely mostly (or should mostly rely on) cavalry. They only have very weak infantry. All sorts of people want stronger infantry for Rohan, but that would destroy the character of the faction and the Edain team always rejected requests for stronger infantry.
Summa summarum:
I won´t die if rams would be implemented, but I like the lack of cavalry among the dwarves. I wouldn´t like that be changed.
--- Ende Zitat ---
@korner we understand those points very well, but there are two groups of people, I think, those who value the fun and uniquiness of a given theme above mechanics and those who value the fun of balance and playability more.
I for one belong to the former, and while I understand the balance/playability argument, I think this exception wouldn't hurt overall b/p that much as you think it would. Both are valid opinions, I should think.
Particularly, in any game, like tabletop RPGs too, I value options and theme above balance. Balance is important, and it's part of the fun too, but it shouldn't be too rigid or always win cases against other elements of a game. It should be flexible in order accomodate new, fun and interesting concepts, like the ram riders, not hinder them. Even if those concepts hurt balance a little, well in that case (which is our case with the RRs) the concepts then should be limited not to harm balance too much, but should not be entirely excluded. That I think most RRs supporters understand that this unit should be limited in order to compromise with the balance and mechanics of the factions (IMO: elite units limited to three and difficult to get, and only in late game).
--- Zitat von: CragLord am 17. Okt 2015, 19:59 ---
--- Zitat von: Skeeverboy am 17. Okt 2015, 19:49 ---
--- Zitat ---Having studied history myself I can tell you that EVERY faction needs a cavalry unit. The reason for that is very simple; to counter artillery and archers. Armies who completely rely on infantry would be annihilated by armies who have superior archers. The best way to counter archers is too send in cavalry who can deal with them quickly, without losing to much infantry. Especially for slow Dwarves who would likely be killed by archers before they even could reach the enemy. People who are against Rams; please keep that in mind!
Now I understand that this is just a game and the archery system is not super realistic in BFME, but if you want to make this mod more realistic then it's only smart to give EVEN the Dwarves a cavalry unit.
--- Ende Zitat ---
For this the Dwarvens have at the moment Battle Wagons. They can kill bows and artillery very fast and easy.
I find that the Dwarvens don't need a other cavallery unit, because I think that the Battle Wagon sufficient.
--- Ende Zitat ---
That is true, but wagons are so damn weak in offensive, and you could use them only for supportive roles. That is also one of reasons why I think rams are needed as standard cavalry knock back offensive units...
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes, I think wagons, while fun, are too weak, and should be delegated to their more supportive role, so the RRs can step in as a decent but limited cavalry.
Fredius:
--- Zitat von: Skeeverboy am 17. Okt 2015, 19:49 ---For this the Dwarvens have at the moment Battle Wagons. They can kill bows and artillery very fast and easy.
I find that the Dwarvens don't need a other cavallery unit, because I think that the Battle Wagon sufficient.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Like Craig and Neto said, they are very weak. On top of that the Wagons are damn expensive, not to mention the costs for the upgrades; and all that for a single wagon who gets destroyed by some small attacks. That's why imo you can't label them as a cavalry unit, but like people said a supportive unit.
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