[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Lothlórien Balance Discussion

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Adrigabbro:
Sorry but you are wrong: even in the earlier fight ALL of his knights got heavy armor (even though there was no dol amroth and no knight shields).

Rushing beornings used to be efficient of course, because they were overpowered as hell (and I think it is still not enough to describe how strong they were). Trust me they are still very strong, just do not rush them. The only thing I'd agree with you on is the trample thing, that was perhaps not necessary. Everything else, especially the prices of beornings and the Hut, is deserved in my opinion.

Concerning your last point,  I haven't played Lorien enough to discuss it.

Odysseus:
Hmm yes, in terms of micro, you were outplayed by Legolas a couple of times as well. But again, the only reason why he got to upgrade his knights so quickly was because of all the upgraded Blacksmiths in his castle. Seriously, Golf of Lune is not the most competitive map. The only way to prove this would be to reenact the match, but then switch sides and employ the same strategies. The outcome would probably silence our discussion :P.

Elite KryPtik:
Well if we're only going to base balance on "competitive" maps, then wtf is the point in having all these cool extra ones? It should be competitive on ALL maps. Also, remember that replays don't replay the lag, which was fairly annoying in this match. I don't think that he legitimately out-microed me at all, even if I was outplayed on the whole, especially considering I had won 2 matches in a row before this. Its not hard to trample with cavalry effectively. Not to say that I didn't make mistakes, but our micro was more or less on par. Anyways it wouldn't much matter what map we were on, Gondor can still spam blacksmiths and rush upgrades waaaay before Lothlorien can due to the building system, bringing me back to my previous point about the command points being on the Border Guardhouse.

Finally, not to be rude, but I would appreciate if you wouldn't derail the argument with things like who has better micro, because the majority of people who play this mod aren't "pros" and are just playing for fun, which means many people who you play with online are around average skill. Legolas and myself are a couple of exceptions to this rule, along with some others that I know of, like Skeeverboy, Mogat, and Draco10000.

Also Adriggabro, if they truly already had heavy armor in the very first fight, then I didn't see it. I guess it just didn't stand out enough for me to notice it.

Gnomi:
It's impossible to balance for all maps, as there are too many things to consider. F.e. if you have a map without any settlements and only about one screen area between the castles and another map with hundreds of settlements and with three times the size of Fords of Isen, there will be many balance differences:
Factions which are faster and are really good at harassing the enemy, but aren't as good in direct fights will probably be much weaker in the first map, but much stronger in the second map - additionally those factions will be stronger when the maps are more open without many small passages. So it's impossible to balance the game for every map. On some maps some factions will be stronger and on others they'll be weaker.
If we change the factions because of the map Golf of Lune and make it balanced for that map, then the balance for all other maps with easier harassment are also changed and probably will be worse.
That's something we can't change and will always be this way. So we're having a couple of maps which are made for competitive play and try to balance for those maps.
You're playing on a map which is balanced for both players, but not for all factions. Those maps are in the game, because there are also a lot of players who like to play against the AI or, even if playing against humen, don't want a completely competitive play as they don't like the more intensive and faster playstyle. So we have also maps for those players which will give those players a possibility to have their games where they can fight without being stressed all the time. :) But of course the balance will be worse on those maps - but as they're not using every unit to its most use, they're already playing with deformed balance.

So, if you really want to play as competitive as possible, play on some other maps. Currently I'ld recommend for such plays:
Arnor:Forochel
Arnor: Mitheithel spring
Arnor: Mountains of Angmar
Brandywine
Carnenquelle
Dunland
Fords of Isen II
Forelands of Emyn Muil
Iron Hills
Morgai

(note: I haven't played some of the other maps yet, especially the Bfme I maps. I think some of them could also be really good)

Probably you can also play some more 1vs1 maps competitively, but those are the maps I'ld name if someone asks me - I love to play some of the other maps too, but I play those more against the AI or if I don't want a 100% competitive play, but something different and interesting. For example Dor-en-Ernil is a really intersting map, which has other things to think about. I wouldn't play this map in a tournament, but I think it's really interesting to play on it. :)

Odysseus:
Wow mates, take it easy haha. It wasn't my intention to have it derail like that. I am just saying that in a competitive environment any factors that can affect gameplay have to be considered. Macro, Micro, the map, lag etc. It was just an observation.

I am also just saying that Golf of Lune is an okay map, but there are more favoured and competitive maps out there, like some examples given by Gnomi. Either way, the smaller the map is in reasonable terms, the more chance it has to contend for a competitive map. It does not have to be the case of course, but it is more likely. In short, it contributed to your loss, but wasn't the overall deciding factor. That is all. It was just a statement.

Anyway, as you said yourself, you were experimenting with a strategy, and in the end, it didn't work out. A shift in tactics might be required. If Gondor spams blacksmiths, I suppose it would be fair to say that there must be a way to hamper them from doing so. In other words, harass the enemy base with light siege to break a gate if required. Personally, not to be rude myself, but player skill is always important and should always be incorporated into how the balance of a match plays out. Mistakes I believe I had already pointed out, like going for silverthorns over master blades first or using the eagles to focus fire on the catapults, which are currently known to be very ineffective against them. The biggest boon of cavalry is their mobility, so once you take that away, by using the mystic stream on them for instance and following it up with master bladed pikes might have swung some of the engagements into your favour and evened the match a little.

Either way, thank you for the input, both of you.

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