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Lothlórien Balance Discussion

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Hamanathnath:
I am not saying that the porcupine formation is a bad formation.  In the right hands, it works very well.  I am saying that there are better options for the Palace Guards.  And for the people who like the porcupine formation, it can be moved to the Lorien Pikeguard.  Every other elite pikeman unit in the game so far has something other then the porcupine formation and/or something that makes them unique then a normal pike unit. palace guards are the only elite pikes that don't, besides the out of combat heal at lvl 2, but all elves have that.

Because Palace Guards are not able to get heavy armour, a formation that give them armour would be very helpful to them.  I do not think the unit is bad now, it seems like they are missing something to make them versatile like other elite pike units.



As for CG-Guardians, I actually like the concept of them as "Single Target Killers".  It sounds interesting.  At their current state, I don't mind CG-Guardians, maybe a new ability would help, but they are not in a place where a change is completely needed In my opinion.

As I stated a few posts ago, Tears of the Valar is not very useful without the stun spellbook power (which i still don't know the name of, sorry about that :P :P :P), so lowering the delay in the beggining would make it more useful.  It could be stronger too, but not too strong so it can kill an entire endgame army if the stun spell is used as well, because as far as i know, there is no way to escape the stun spell until it is over.  The other 10 point spell is good enough in my opinion.

I personally think beorning should not have trample immunity, but there seems to be alot of people who think they should have it.  I do think however, beornings should get a skill from leveling up.  Maybe something that makes you immune to trample, among other effects, would be cool.  I'd have to think about it though.  I also think the Bear form melee damage isn't high enough, but Idk yet if that should be changed.

CragLord:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am  4. Dez 2015, 16:45 ---Concerning CG-guardians:

--- Zitat ---In German forum they made the suggestion, that they get the ability of the mirkwood archers additionally and that mirkwood archers get an shackle-shoot instead.
--- Ende Zitat ---
That isn't exactly true. We were talking about giving this rapid fire ability to the Galadhrim in an attempt to rework certain Lothlorien units. Actually it was completely the opposite way arround, CG-guardians were supposed to shoot really slow, but deal very high damage, making them strong versus heroes, monsters or single-units in general, but rather weak against spam. (It was a pretty long concept, so I won't translate it here. Basically it was about giving every Lothlorien unit a specific place, without redundancies and without some units replacing others. It wasn't totally accepted though. ;))
Apart from that: Do the CG-guardians really need another combat ability? I'm asking this, because they essentially have the same role as regular Lothlorien-archers, don't enter the game earlier or later than fully upgraded archers, do not cost any more money than fully upgraded archers and all three together actually take up 360 CP which is a lot for a single unit. Therefore I think that too strong / too flexible CG-guardians would make Lothlorien-archers kind of redundant in LG. (Just the result of 5 different archer units in one faction. :D)
E.g. in the German forum we were taling about giving them permanent stealth (even while firing and away from trees). This together with high single target damage would make them an excellet sniper-unit.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

--- Ende Zitat ---

I didn't understand you. But as heroic unit they deserve new ability maybe? And how can 3 battalions to make redudant standard range unit? They are only three in count, and in late game it is supposed that stronger units are on battlefield, so I really don't understand your statement about heroic unit makes redundant standard unit in late game.
Also giving them stealth as permanent stuff is maybe out of place?
It is supposed that they have something to hide in, in those "consistency" terms trees. :)
Isn't better to give them some activation ability for dealing with those heavy armored units? We got similar situation there, and CG guardians no matter of their high base damage didn't do so much against heavy armor/formation towerguards. So maybe as they are considered as toughest range heroic unit, they should have ability to deal in their favor in those situations?
 

™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™:
I got an idea for Mirkwood Palace Guards :P                                                                            How about a formation which requires they have forged blades purchased?                            For this formation it would be: +100% armor, -75% damage.(75% instead of 50% as their forged blades are 3x the damage)                                                                              It is basically trading forged blades for heavy armor.                               

Adrigabbro:
I'm a little late in the discussion but here's my opinion, better late than never!

As a whole, I think Lorien has a good late game and is not overwhelmed by other factions: silverthorn arrows do enough damage, Ealendril's ship is an awesome 10 PP spell (perhaps Tears of the Valars could use some buff, dunno), Beornings are in a great spot right now and Galadhrims would have wrecked Tower Guards etc... for the same reasons it has already been discussed.

However I do agree with  you on some points:
~> I don't see why CG guardians don't have a second ability as almost every other hero battalion. They can be killed very easily for they are archers and that's why they should have some great ability at high levels to make up for.
~> Siege weapons are in a too good spot right now: even though I appreciate the last change to make them able to do decent damage to units, it was a little bit too big. Also, there is still that invulnerability to flying units...
~> Palace Guards could use some personal stance and be able to wear heavy armor. I would even say Mirkwood swordsmen and archers should also wear heavy armor, but I understand not everybody agrees on that.
~> Grimbeorn could use some area of effect and/or a price reduction.

Lord of Mordor:
Lots of good discussion here, so I'll just jump right in :)

The counter for siege units could either be your own archers with silverthorns and longbows (Lorien archers with longbows or Caras Galadhon guardians have range similiar to that of most siege units), or Beornings or Lorien swordsmen with their speed ability. I agree it is more difficult to counter them without straight-up cavalry, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. Some have already said that catapults in general have too much health at the moment, maybe we could lower it a bit?


Catapults are meant to be effective against armies that are clumped tightly together, but they shouldn't be "sniping" single units and heroes. That is something we will adjust. One thing I'm unsure about is how good catapults should be against monsters and other catapults. The thing is that catapults are the only way a fortress might be able to defend itself against other catapults (and thus force the attacker to bring more that one single catapult or Ent to bring down a fully upgraded fortress because you need superior firepower). On the other hand, one could argue that a fortress shouldn't in fact have defenses against siege weapons. What do you guys think?

Ents are actually way better than trolls in every way except speed (more health, more damage, can be used as a catapult), so they should cost more CP. However, we could increase the flame damage they need to take before they start burning.


The Palace Guards are not meant to work the same way the Tower Guard does. Tower Guards are very much a special case, they're the ultimate unit for holding a defensive line: Good against cavalry and thanks to their shield wall they can take a lot of damage from other unit types as well. They are designed this way because Gondor is supposed to be one of the best factions at holding heavily defended lines. Lorien by design is not supposed to be able to do that as well as Gondor. That is why the Palace Guard is more specialized against cavalry. Note that they are actually significantly better at stopping cavalry than the Tower Guard: Their porcupine stops cavalry short immediately and their forged blades grant them twice the damage of Gondor's.  As such an archer-focussed faction, I think Lorien is actually better served with a pike unit that is fully focussed on killing cavalry than an allrounder like the Tower Guard. And from what I've seen in that replay the Palace Guard did their job quite well: Whenever the Rohan player had his riders charge into your pikemen, they just got murdered.

So even if we replace the Porcupine formation, it would be with a specialized anti-cavalry ability, not a massive armor boost like the Tower Guard have. However, this would mean that Lorien would no longer have access to the Porcupine. The normal pikemen won't get it because we don't want to overload regular units with more than one active ability (their speed boost already requires more attention than many other abilities to be used well). I felt the Porcupine with its ability to stop even large groups of cavalry was something that Lorien really needed. If you think it could easily be removed from the faction, we could of course give the Palace Guard something else.

As for how Lorien should deal with heavily armored Tower Guards, it has already been mentioned that melee Galadhrim with forged blades (who have massively increased damage against other infantry) and human Beornings (who ignore heavy armor) are your best choices. If these turn out to NOT be effective against Tower Guards, we will have to adjust that.


The Star of Hope is actually a very strong power in my opinion. It's just the the Army of the Dead is likely the single best spell in the game, most don't compare that well to it (which I'm aware is a problem, but the Army is difficult to nerf while still keeping their feeling from the movie - but note that they take a while to appear and don't stay for long, so you can reduce your losses by running away). The rain might need a buff (as might the arrow volley), I'll look into that.


The thing about mass killer heroes is that they're usually not meant to be good against upgraded Tower Guards, but rather hordes of weak units like Orcs. Here, Galadriel excels and Legolas does quite well too (note that while he doesn't appear to have any AoE powers until the arrow rain, he attacks extremely quickly and thus can kill many weak units in a short time). But I agree that Lorien could use a hero that is specifically oriented towards killing groups of units, and many of Legolas' powers don't help very much with that. Maybe we could increase the AoE of his knife attacks and replace the archer training ability with something that's better suited against enemy units?


The Caras Galadhon Guards could use some more special powers, I agree with that and I'm currently brainstorming a few, so hopefully they'll pack some more punch in the next version :) The idea is that they will be your go-to archers against less numerous, but heavily armored targets.

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