[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions
Lothlórien Balance Discussion
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: Lord of Gifts am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31 ---Lots of good discussion here, so I'll just jump right in :)
The counter for siege units could either be your own archers with silverthorns and longbows (Lorien archers with longbows or Caras Galadhon guardians have range similiar to that of most siege units), or Beornings or Lorien swordsmen with their speed ability. I agree it is more difficult to counter them without straight-up cavalry, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. Some have already said that catapults in general have too much health at the moment, maybe we could lower it a bit?
Catapults are meant to be effective against armies that are clumped tightly together, but they shouldn't be "sniping" single units and heroes. That is something we will adjust. One thing I'm unsure about is how good catapults should be against monsters and other catapults. The thing is that catapults are the only way a fortress might be able to defend itself against other catapults (and thus force the attacker to bring more that one single catapult or Ent to bring down a fully upgraded fortress because you need superior firepower). On the other hand, one could argue that a fortress shouldn't in fact have defenses against siege weapons. What do you guys think?
Ents are actually way better than trolls in every way except speed (more health, more damage, can be used as a catapult), so they should cost more CP. However, we could increase the flame damage they need to take before they start burning.
The Palace Guards are not meant to work the same way the Tower Guard does. Tower Guards are very much a special case, they're the ultimate unit for holding a defensive line: Good against cavalry and thanks to their shield wall they can take a lot of damage from other unit types as well. They are designed this way because Gondor is supposed to be one of the best factions at holding heavily defended lines. Lorien by design is not supposed to be able to do that as well as Gondor. That is why the Palace Guard is more specialized against cavalry. Note that they are actually significantly better at stopping cavalry than the Tower Guard: Their porcupine stops cavalry short immediately and their forged blades grant them twice the damage of Gondor's. As such an archer-focussed faction, I think Lorien is actually better served with a pike unit that is fully focussed on killing cavalry than an allrounder like the Tower Guard. And from what I've seen in that replay the Palace Guard did their job quite well: Whenever the Rohan player had his riders charge into your pikemen, they just got murdered.
So even if we replace the Porcupine formation, it would be with a specialized anti-cavalry ability, not a massive armor boost like the Tower Guard have. However, this would mean that Lorien would no longer have access to the Porcupine. The normal pikemen won't get it because we don't want to overload regular units with more than one active ability (their speed boost already requires more attention than many other abilities to be used well). I felt the Porcupine with its ability to stop even large groups of cavalry was something that Lorien really needed. If you think it could easily be removed from the faction, we could of course give the Palace Guard something else.
As for how Lorien should deal with heavily armored Tower Guards, it has already been mentioned that melee Galadhrim with forged blades (who have massively increased damage against other infantry) and human Beornings (who ignore heavy armor) are your best choices. If these turn out to NOT be effective against Tower Guards, we will have to adjust that.
The Star of Hope is actually a very strong power in my opinion. It's just the the Army of the Dead is likely the single best spell in the game, most don't compare that well to it (which I'm aware is a problem, but the Army is difficult to nerf while still keeping their feeling from the movie - but note that they take a while to appear and don't stay for long, so you can reduce your losses by running away). The rain might need a buff (as might the arrow volley), I'll look into that.
The thing about mass killer heroes is that they're usually not meant to be good against upgraded Tower Guards, but rather hordes of weak units like Orcs. Here, Galadriel excels and Legolas does quite well too (note that while he doesn't appear to have any AoE powers until the arrow rain, he attacks extremely quickly and thus can kill many weak units in a short time). But I agree that Lorien could use a hero that is specifically oriented towards killing groups of units, and many of Legolas' powers don't help very much with that. Maybe we could increase the AoE of his knife attacks and replace the archer training ability with something that's better suited against enemy units?
The Caras Galadhon Guards could use some more special powers, I agree with that and I'm currently brainstorming a few, so hopefully they'll pack some more punch in the next version :) The idea is that they will be your go-to archers against less numerous, but heavily armored targets.
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It is nice to see that you have summed all of our efforts in one detailed answer. :)
Concerning catapult's hp, I personally don't have some complain to say, thing which irritates me is concerning flying units and catapult interaction. So in that term I am praying you will adjust damage from flying units on siege or low hp of catapult concerning that singular situation, but that is maybe not objective though in general case. Also I don't know what is situation with sniping, if any kind of heavy hero damage dealing by catapults exists, this should be changed as you have described. No "sniping", destroying of formations and units of clumped tightly army in first place.
Concerning siege vs siege, I have tested 2 Ent heroes and one standard ent on defensive stance destroyed Mordor catapult from one way of projectiles, that is basically 3 hits from ents on defensive stance. I am ok with that, probably 2 are needed on agressive stance. Concerning Citadel catapult vs ground catapult, I haven't so much exp to share some thought about that situation.
That is nice to hear about Ent flame damage, what will happened with regular arrows damage on them? Currently big "consistency" problem in game. What happens also about siege (flame) damage on ents? I haven't check current situation, but how many flaming bolders is needed to hit Ent before it start burning?
About Palace Guards their role, gameplay usage, formations I haven't any great experience to share or though, so I will skip that. :)
Star of Hope, nothing to add.
I am also for increase of damage of "Valar Tears", so I am really glad to hear that. I know that power's main usage is for mass slaying, but it damage on stronger units is very poor (trolls, drakes and stronger battalions).
Concerning mass slaying problem, maybe Grimbeorn can jump in beside that knife ability buff on Legolas. I know it is not unique anymore, but some stance for aoe similar to Tharnduil could do very good job. Agressive stance with his axe, so he gets some good aoe?
IF CG guardians get some special ability for dealing with those heavy armored units, that will be great. After all as mightiest range heroic unit, they simply deserve something like that from consistency terms, and earilier situation with Elite show us that this ability is really needed in game. Also current one (lesser damage and knock back) is pretty useless on more numerous battalions of enemies. Personally I think , if that knock back ability have effect on heroic units for example, that it could stay, but with adding of new one about dealing with heavy armored units etc. Otherwise, it should be removed, so basically to rebuild ability palantir for this unit.
I tried to give some feedback. xD
Best regards,
CragLord
Hamanathnath:
Great to see some feedback from the Lord of Gifts :)
I'm glad that catapults will be looked at. They are too powerful at singling out a hero. But I don't want them to sometimes miss their targets as a fix to this problem. What if they knocked the people hit farther back, so that other catapults will miss? Just a suggestion.
As for their health, I don't know if it needs a change. But I support making Eagle (and Fellbeasts to a lesser extent) stronger against siege weapons. Maybe not to the point of 1 hit killing them, but right now eagles barely anything to these siege weapons. Fellbeast can be slightly weaker then eagles at destroying siege weapons, because fell beasts don't have a timer on them.
Concerning Palace Guards, I can see why you want to make Palace Guards Specialized at taking down Cavalry, instead of the All Arounder like the Tower Guards. But i think the problem is that, while Palace Guards are better at killing Cavalry then Tower Guards, it is still a very bad idea to charge into Tower Guards with Cavalry. No matter which of the 2 units you are attacking with Cavalry, U most likely wont make it out without losing alot of units, which kinda makes Palace Guards being better at killing cavalry then Tower Guards not very useful.
Of course I would like to see your ideas on another Anti-Cavalry Formation, but I still think Palace Guards are missing something that other Elite Pike Units have. The other elite pikes have something that makes them more then just Anti-Cavalry units. I just think that Palace Guards, while better at killing cavalry then other pikes, that doesn't completely cover what they are missing.
I'm also glad that Rain of the Valar will be looked at. I've already said what I think about it.
Concerning Legolas, maybe you don't need to remove his archer training ability, maybe make it so that it also makes the archers he used it on improved in some other way. Maybe making their next volley of arrows have a small AoE effect that is slightly weaker then the arrows themselves? Or maybe the Archers could fire their volleys faster for 30 seconds.
Grimbeorn could also be an option for mass-slayer, but I don't have much to say about that.
Also, I'm all for the CG-Guardians having new abilities.
Adrigabbro:
Thanks for the answer!
--- Zitat von: Lord of Gifts am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31 ---Lots of good discussion here, so I'll just jump right in :)
The counter for siege units could either be your own archers with silverthorns and longbows (Lorien archers with longbows or Caras Galadhon guardians have range similiar to that of most siege units), or Beornings or Lorien swordsmen with their speed ability. I agree it is more difficult to counter them without straight-up cavalry, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. Some have already said that catapults in general have too much health at the moment, maybe we could lower it a bit?
Catapults are meant to be effective against armies that are clumped tightly together, but they shouldn't be "sniping" single units and heroes. That is something we will adjust. One thing I'm unsure about is how good catapults should be against monsters and other catapults. The thing is that catapults are the only way a fortress might be able to defend itself against other catapults (and thus force the attacker to bring more that one single catapult or Ent to bring down a fully upgraded fortress because you need superior firepower). On the other hand, one could argue that a fortress shouldn't in fact have defenses against siege weapons. What do you guys think?
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Their health is fine but as CragLord rightly said, their resistance against flying units is a problem.
I'm glad you will take down a bit their damage against units. On the other hand, I think catapults should still be able to destroy other catapults in 3 hits or so.
--- Zitat von: Lord of Gifts am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31 ---Ents are actually way better than trolls in every way except speed (more health, more damage, can be used as a catapult), so they should cost more CP. However, we could increase the flame damage they need to take before they start burning.
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I didn't know that was possible for you to do that but that's a great idea in my opinion. :)
--- Zitat von: Lord of Gifts am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31 ---The Palace Guards are not meant to work the same way the Tower Guard does. Tower Guards are very much a special case, they're the ultimate unit for holding a defensive line: Good against cavalry and thanks to their shield wall they can take a lot of damage from other unit types as well. They are designed this way because Gondor is supposed to be one of the best factions at holding heavily defended lines. Lorien by design is not supposed to be able to do that as well as Gondor. That is why the Palace Guard is more specialized against cavalry. Note that they are actually significantly better at stopping cavalry than the Tower Guard: Their porcupine stops cavalry short immediately and their forged blades grant them twice the damage of Gondor's. As such an archer-focussed faction, I think Lorien is actually better served with a pike unit that is fully focussed on killing cavalry than an allrounder like the Tower Guard. And from what I've seen in that replay the Palace Guard did their job quite well: Whenever the Rohan player had his riders charge into your pikemen, they just got murdered.
So even if we replace the Porcupine formation, it would be with a specialized anti-cavalry ability, not a massive armor boost like the Tower Guard have. However, this would mean that Lorien would no longer have access to the Porcupine. The normal pikemen won't get it because we don't want to overload regular units with more than one active ability (their speed boost already requires more attention than many other abilities to be used well). I felt the Porcupine with its ability to stop even large groups of cavalry was something that Lorien really needed. If you think it could easily be removed from the faction, we could of course give the Palace Guard something else.
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I gotta admit I always considered the porcupine formation as something left from the vanilla game just because it looked good but without any purpose. Then, I will try it in my next games before saying anything else on Palace Guards.
Still, I'd like to know how much additional armor Mirkwood units get compared to Lorien units (if you have an exact figure or anything)
--- Zitat von: Lord of Gifts am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31 ---The thing about mass killer heroes is that they're usually not meant to be good against upgraded Tower Guards, but rather hordes of weak units like Orcs. Here, Galadriel excels and Legolas does quite well too (note that while he doesn't appear to have any AoE powers until the arrow rain, he attacks extremely quickly and thus can kill many weak units in a short time). But I agree that Lorien could use a hero that is specifically oriented towards killing groups of units, and many of Legolas' powers don't help very much with that. Maybe we could increase the AoE of his knife attacks and replace the archer training ability with something that's better suited against enemy units?
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Increasing the AoE of his knife will not help mass killing because this ability is actually used, rightfully, when Legolas is being attacked hand-to-hand ; if you want him to kill great amount of troops, you put him far behind and let him snipe. However I think it wouldn't be a bad thing at all to give him that buff because he has hard time defending himself right now.
Also, I personnally don't want his archer training ability to be removed. It is the only thing in his skillset that is sort of kingly and reminds us he is the Prince of Mirkwood. Plus this ability is very useful in game.
That leads us to the same conclusion: how about Grimbeorn? :P
--- Zitat von: Lord of Gifts am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31 ---The Caras Galadhon Guards could use some more special powers, I agree with that and I'm currently brainstorming a few, so hopefully they'll pack some more punch in the next version :) The idea is that they will be your go-to archers against less numerous, but heavily armored targets.
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I like that! This way every archer has his own specific purpose:
Lorien archers ~> great range
Galadhrims ~> bow/sword switch
CG-Guardians ~> murdering elite units
Mirkwood archers ~> additional armor and mass killing (if they don't move)
Elkriders ~> ?????? Lol :D
I think Elkriders are in bad spot right now but I guess that is another debate. :)
Elite KryPtik:
Thanks for the response!
--- Zitat von: Lord of Gifts am 5. Dez 2015, 20:31 ---The counter for siege units could either be your own archers with silverthorns and longbows (Lorien archers with longbows or Caras Galadhon guardians have range similiar to that of most siege units), or Beornings or Lorien swordsmen with their speed ability. I agree it is more difficult to counter them without straight-up cavalry, but I wouldn't say it's impossible. Some have already said that catapults in general have too much health at the moment, maybe we could lower it a bit?
--- Ende Zitat ---
I don't think health is the problem, its armor against specific damage types. It takes unusually long for melee infantry and even heroes to kill a catapult if its running away, and as has already been mentioned, flying units are completely useless against them. I think that armor against all forms of melee attacks and flying units need to be decreased.
--- Zitat ---Catapults are meant to be effective against armies that are clumped tightly together, but they shouldn't be "sniping" single units and heroes. That is something we will adjust. One thing I'm unsure about is how good catapults should be against monsters and other catapults. The thing is that catapults are the only way a fortress might be able to defend itself against other catapults (and thus force the attacker to bring more that one single catapult or Ent to bring down a fully upgraded fortress because you need superior firepower). On the other hand, one could argue that a fortress shouldn't in fact have defenses against siege weapons. What do you guys think?
--- Ende Zitat ---
I agree that catapults are currently far too strong against heroes, especially dwarf catapults. They should receive a specific scalar to reduce their damage on heroes. I think they should remain strong against clumped units, monsters and other siege though.
--- Zitat ---Ents are actually way better than trolls in every way except speed (more health, more damage, can be used as a catapult), so they should cost more CP. However, we could increase the flame damage they need to take before they start burning.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I still think that 90 CP is just too much for a single ent, maybe 60 would be more suitable? It would be great if they were a bit more resistant to flame, and it would also be great if you didn't immediately lose control of them as soon as they are set on fire. I wish it was like in vanilla, where they look at themselves on fire for a second, then get enraged and can be controlled again. Having your ents run crazy from being set on fire is so freaking annoying and unfair.
--- Zitat ---The Palace Guards are not meant to work the same way the Tower Guard does. Tower Guards are very much a special case, they're the ultimate unit for holding a defensive line: Good against cavalry and thanks to their shield wall they can take a lot of damage from other unit types as well. They are designed this way because Gondor is supposed to be one of the best factions at holding heavily defended lines. Lorien by design is not supposed to be able to do that as well as Gondor. That is why the Palace Guard is more specialized against cavalry. Note that they are actually significantly better at stopping cavalry than the Tower Guard: Their porcupine stops cavalry short immediately and their forged blades grant them twice the damage of Gondor's. As such an archer-focussed faction, I think Lorien is actually better served with a pike unit that is fully focussed on killing cavalry than an allrounder like the Tower Guard. And from what I've seen in that replay the Palace Guard did their job quite well: Whenever the Rohan player had his riders charge into your pikemen, they just got murdered.
So even if we replace the Porcupine formation, it would be with a specialized anti-cavalry ability, not a massive armor boost like the Tower Guard have. However, this would mean that Lorien would no longer have access to the Porcupine. The normal pikemen won't get it because we don't want to overload regular units with more than one active ability (their speed boost already requires more attention than many other abilities to be used well). I felt the Porcupine with its ability to stop even large groups of cavalry was something that Lorien really needed. If you think it could easily be removed from the faction, we could of course give the Palace Guard something else.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I would like to say for the record that I HATE the current effect of porcupine formation. Its completely unrealistic and clunky in my view. I think that instead of stopping cavalry dead in their tracks by barely touching the pikes, and basically paralyzing and immobilizing them as long as they remain in porcupine, that it should instead just deal extremely heavy trample revenge damage. That being said, I still think the palace guard are worthy of having a custom ability, they are after all elite pikes.
--- Zitat ---As for how Lorien should deal with heavily armored Tower Guards, it has already been mentioned that melee Galadhrim with forged blades (who have massively increased damage against other infantry) and human Beornings (who ignore heavy armor) are your best choices. If these turn out to NOT be effective against Tower Guards, we will have to adjust that.
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Well, in my experience, melee Galadhrim are definitely not very effective against them. I can't speak so much for beornings, but I'm not sure that an army comprised mainly of tower guards could be stopped by a few beornings, there are just too many spears hitting the beornings at once for them to deal enough damage. I really dislike the current "light siege" role of beornings, I rather miss their crowd control role in the beta when they had aoe knockback, I think it filled the current missing role of mass slayer very well. Perhaps it could be weakened and reintroduced? Now that they can be knocked backed and trampled I think it would be much more fair.
--- Zitat ---The Star of Hope is actually a very strong power in my opinion. It's just the the Army of the Dead is likely the single best spell in the game, most don't compare that well to it (which I'm aware is a problem, but the Army is difficult to nerf while still keeping their feeling from the movie - but note that they take a while to appear and don't stay for long, so you can reduce your losses by running away). The rain might need a buff (as might the arrow volley), I'll look into that.
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I wasn't trying so much to directly compare to AotD, its foolish to do so, nothing compares to it. The issue that I have with it is how slow the boat moves and how short the duration is, enemy armies can literally run 30 feet away and completely negate the effect of the spell. To counter this, either the effect should stay on units for a little while when they leave the radius of the boat or the boat should be made faster. The rain definitely needs a buff, it actually does not kill many units at all, just knocks them around a lot, and the arrow volley should be the strongest of the currently available volleys in the game, these are Elves we are talking about here.
--- Zitat ---The thing about mass killer heroes is that they're usually not meant to be good against upgraded Tower Guards, but rather hordes of weak units like Orcs. Here, Galadriel excels and Legolas does quite well too (note that while he doesn't appear to have any AoE powers until the arrow rain, he attacks extremely quickly and thus can kill many weak units in a short time). But I agree that Lorien could use a hero that is specifically oriented towards killing groups of units, and many of Legolas' powers don't help very much with that. Maybe we could increase the AoE of his knife attacks and replace the archer training ability with something that's better suited against enemy units?
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I personally think that Grimbeorn fits rather well into the role of mass slayer, and his bee ability is currently basically useless. It could be replaced with something better. In addition, I think he should have a different level 10 ability for each of his forms. His human form seems to be more crowd control oriented, and his bear form better with single target damage, so maybe he could get a good mass slayer power at level 10 in human form? As for Legolas, I think that the knife fighter skill needs to give more armor, not more of a damage radius, Legolas is pathetically easy to kill. I really like the archer train, but its a bit useless later on, perhaps it could give a leadership for 1 minute as well? This would increase its usefulness significantly for units that are already high level.
--- Zitat ---The Caras Galadhon Guards could use some more special powers, I agree with that and I'm currently brainstorming a few, so hopefully they'll pack some more punch in the next version :) The idea is that they will be your go-to archers against less numerous, but heavily armored targets[./quote]
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No response needed from me, can't wait to see what you come up with.
Elite KryPtik:
Had a 1v1 with a friend, was teaching him how to play. He got the Ring and completely turned the match around, which is fine. However, 1 of Blessed Galadriels powers is absolutely OP. Memory of The Trees(or whatever its real name is) does absurd amounts of damage to heroes. It will bring any hero from full health to like 20%. I'm attaching the replay so people can see this in action. Combined with the incredibly long stun duration of the ability, its basically instant death for all enemy heroes in a medium radius. Additionally, I don't have a problem with how long the invulnerability lasts, but I think the radius is too wide, it shouldn't be much more than Galadriel without the Ring.
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