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Umfrage

Evil Men Faction

Yes an Evil Men faction would be great with all of the realms combined.
79 (65.8%)
I like the evil men the way they are now.
7 (5.8%)
I think they should not have a faction but i would like more units from the spellbook.
3 (2.5%)
Harad And Rhun should be two separate factions.
31 (25.8%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 116

Autor Thema: A possible new Evil Men faction  (Gelesen 16736 mal)

Morwereth

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #90 am: 10. Mär 2017, 12:58 »
  As far as I remember, Castamir was a Gondorian admiral who dethroned King Eldacar by civil war. He ruled around 8 years and eventually got killed by Eldacar's himself when he returned with reinforcements. His sons escaped to Umbar and possibly became leaders of Corsairs.

  My point is, Castamir died long time ago before War of the Ring. I'd like to suggest adding heir(s) of Castamir as a corsair hero to possible evil man faction, instead of himself or hero who shares the same name. It would be more lore friendly in my opinion.

OakenShield224

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #91 am: 10. Mär 2017, 18:27 »
This is a very interesting proposal. I like the fact that you start in Rhun and then work with other groups of evil men depending on your strategy. The idea of the Bazaar that allows you to specialise in a sub-faction is also interesting. One idea could be that the Bazaar also provides trade deals with each sub-faction. For example, if you have a trade deal with Harad, the Harad buildings produce a small amount of resources. The Bazaar itself would have to be more expensive. This is just me speculating though so feel free to ignore all of it.

I also like the unique heroes like the War Priest and the Scorpion Lord (although I'm still not sure how Amdur works). I think I agree with lordoflinks regarding Khamul. He seems to have too big of a role in Evil Men, especially since he is also one of Mordor's most powerful heroes. He is best as temporary summon who disrupts enemy buildings and units.

If only one of Saleme and Murakhan is kept, then there may need to be another hero in the faction. One role that I think could be filled would be a leader of Rhun as Amdur seems to be more like an elite warrior and tank than a leader. This leader could be made as a Ring Hero as a contrast to Suladan.

This is just more of me thinking of ideas. I think Umbar would have a emphasis on slaves. They are descendants of the Black Numenoreans from the Second Age who took slaves when they came to Middle Earth. They also used slaves to row their boats (Aragorn freed them when the Army of the Dead attacked the Corsair fleet). I don't know if this can be implemented, but there could be spell book power that recharges as enemy units are killed. When it is full, you have to option to immediately earn some money (selling the slaves) or to boost the production of a target structure (use the slaves as a work force). I also think Men of Darkness would have a close connection to Morgoth/Sauron and would worship them (the Numenoreans of the Second Age worshipped Morgoth while the Men of Darkness though Sauron was "both king and god"). They may make sacrifices to them to gain some sort of blessing. This could be implemented with the slave system. You would have the option to sacrifice the slaves. All units across the map would gain +30% damage for 1 minute but would earn no experience for this time.
Again, feel free to ignore these ideas if you think they don't work.

Regarding the name of Castamir, although a new name could be made, men in Middle Earth have been known to use their ancestors names before. For example, there have been 2 Aragorns, 2 Boromirs, and 2 Denethors.

lordoflinks

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #92 am: 12. Mär 2017, 10:11 »
Two additional thematic concerns I think are:
1. The absence of the steel bow; I believe it is a very cool weapon and the best place for it is Umbar
2. I do not believe you should be able to build Black Easterlings, in my opinion they are a very special unit that should remain as a summon from Khamul only. Rather the Easterlings should get their own unique infantry such as a "Dragon Guard."
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Garlodur

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #93 am: 12. Mär 2017, 22:34 »
Thank you everyone for your kind feedback. I invite to delve into critically analysing the proposal in search of questions regarding theme, balance, style, gameplay, originality, and technicalities.

I will clear up the questions so far:

@Morwereth: The name Castamir links to an historical character in Middle-Earth, I am aware of that. I did this for the exact reason that names are reused in other instances, indicated by Oakenshield224: they are meant to remind us of these characters. I have thus build the character of Castamir (the Second if you will) on the basis of revenge for his ancestor Castamir the Usurper: I believe this is a very interesting position to start from because it gives the hero a background story far more realistic than a simple Corsair Captain who wants loot and booze.

lordoflinks

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #94 am: 13. Mär 2017, 13:02 »
This is going to be a long post so I hope you are ready.
Garlodur, I shall address your concerns first by explaining my feedback with your idea and then I shall explain why I did the things I did in my concept so you can understand my viewpoint.
1. Feedback on your Proposal

I hope my explanation has been sufficient. Please ask me if you have any questions. My comment about conceding defeat was meant in jest as an expression of how impressed I was with your concept, and the extreme likelihood that if any concept will be picked it will be yours.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

Garlodur

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #95 am: 2. Apr 2017, 21:03 »
Here I am finally with a reaction to you, lordoflinks. I have been away for a bit due to study occupations. First of all, thank you for your feedback. Let's discuss some of it as far as it fits in one post in a structured way.


With regards to your explanation on the differences in our concepts I have come up with an idea of shaping the Men of Darkness more to the faction of people's liking.

At the start of each game the Easterling castle will be built in a regular way. When you click on the citadel you will then have the option to choose to upgrade right away into a particular subfaction for free. This choice affects your starting units and allows buildings to level up in time. Later in the game, you can choose to upgrade the other subfactions as well so that you can pull together the full might of the Men of Darkness.

  • Choose Easterlings: the citadel is extended on one side with a small embassy-like reception hall with war priests; the starting units remain Easterling Swordsmen; Easterling recruitment buildings will start levelling in time. This choice benefits the defensive player but is still necessary in mid-game if you want quick access to elite troops and siege
  • Choose Southrons: the citadel is extended with a embassy tent from the south with NPC Spear Throwers on guard; Southron Buildings build freely on the map by Southron Builders start levelling in time; starter units change into Haradrim Swordsmen. This benefits an aggressive player with easily spammed units from different corners of the map but remains necessary in mid-game to extend the power of the Mûmakil.
  • Choose Umbarians: the citadel is extended with a small temple-like building with an NPC Black Númenorean on guard; starting units are turned into Corsairs and the Bazar now allows recruitment of Corsairs. This allows for a strong economic harrasment strategy which is weak if not founded by units from the other realms

I would like to hear all your thoughts on this implementation, whether it's feasible, strategically interesting, and not too similar to the Dwarves' system.

lordoflinks

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #96 am: 5. Apr 2017, 11:20 »
I've said all I have needed to say really, so I can offer no more thoughts really.
Good luck with the rest of your concept.
All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.

But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.


My avatar is Romana, a favorite person of mine

FilipGeorg95

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #97 am: 31. Dez 2017, 11:47 »
My concepts for Harad+Umbar as sub-faction and Rhun+Khand as sub-faction. I hope you will like it
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wuyasSsgwL3EBGGdE1LG3dXqR9hwE46J
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12Sbe0PjQIiMd1nB8obLobm9_29p9SF3_

Filip Georgievski

dkbluewizard

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #98 am: 1. Jan 2018, 00:50 »
Like the awesome work, and it looks great man. Very interesting. Hope some of this is incorporated into the grand fold of things.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #99 am: 8. Mai 2018, 15:54 »
Hello Evil Men Fans :) I want to present you one of my last Hero concept i made. I put some fantasy in it and i have lot of fun during the creation. However, you will notice that the character is not totally invented but is actually based on lore. The starting goal of my work it was in fact to explore the identity of unknown Nazguls. In particular i was inspired by one of the armor from BOTFA, as you will see below.
Note that i'm not posting it for a definitive judgment (the usual FOR/AGAINST list), because it would be simply to early to do that. Moreover, i currently don't have a clear idea about how this character would be actually introduced in the faction (via spellbook, external outopost, or whaever), since all about Evil Men faction is unknown and open to discussion. it is really incredible how detailed your ideas and plans are in this thread. It is a really creative place and i'm actually posting this concept keeping this exact spirit  xD
So let me know all your opinion: what do you think about lore connection i made? What about this precise design and do you like other Nazgul armor that currently can't be implemented?
I thank Filip because he gave me his opinion and help me for some details  :)


HERUMOR: THE CRUEL NUMENOREAN KING


Zitat von: The Silmarillion
"But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil,
for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were,
Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim,
a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond
the mouths of Anduin."

"Herumor: A renegade Númenórean who became mighty among the Haradrim at the end of the Second Age."

LORE AND HYPOTHESIS


As you can see i quoted above the Tolkien writings about Herumor. Both him and his brother Fuinur, were black Numenorean that estiblished their domain in Harad after the downfall of Numenor. Both were powerful and cruel allies who served Sauron during the second age. I do believe like many fans that they finally become both Nazgûl enslaved by two of the nine rings. Evetually, they have been forsaken and finally forgotten by their own folk along with their names and personalities.
I saw that for example MorgulLord (creator of BOTTA) introduced in his mod a similar Nazgûl (same armor shown below), naming the character Ji Indur. It is a widely used name across the web, but it is actually a fictional name which comes from  Middle-earth Role Playing game (MERP) published by Iron Crown Enterprises.
In my opinion Herumor and Fuinur are the most valid and lore-friendly hypothesis about two of the unknown identities of the Ringwraiths, given also that their name have been written by the Professor himself.
Actually the fictional nameless title "The Forsaken" comes from Forge World's website, which is a sort of subdivision of Game Workshop. As the team did for the Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord, i would like to keep this title, leaving the story of Herumor as lore background.

HERUMOR: THE FORSAKEN (RINGWRAITH)


What actually triggered and inspired me to craft this concept is the Haradrim-like Nazgûl  we have seen in The Hobbit. I myself like especially this robe along with the one of Khamûl, since they are more sober and clearly shows the orgin of the two damned  kings of men. Instead, i deem the other BOTFA armor (WK included) quite strange and too much full of details and not worth to be implemented. Pheraphs also the Dark Headsman (the one with axe) is acceptable, but with adjusting some details. Here below the three ringwraiths and the miniature from FW:



Since i don't like so much the shape of the trident, i would actually turn it into a lance. Maybe also enlarging a bit the central blade would be more proper. An example could be the one below:


My idea is that The Forsaken's Southern Spear  is a cursed weapon that cause terrible wounds. The Haradrim Wraith was a skilled spear masters in his past life (GOT fans will catch where my inspiration comes from).

THE SOUTHERN NAZGÛL IN GAME

The Forsaken is a terrible vision both for enmies and allies: during his life as man, he was a cruel and mercilessy black Numenorean king who ruled diffusing terror and executing the opponents. Even his wraith form he didn't lose any of his ancient character: wherever he goes he draws life of surrounding lifeform, turning all like an arid desert of the South.
His role in harad faction will be of an hero killer and unit interferer. He will have the same intial stat values of the other two minor Nazgûl (Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord).

Level 1: mount/dismount: the Forsaken mounts his black Harad steed.

Classic mounth of a Nazgûl.

Level 2: Plaguing Aura (passive): wherever The Forsaken goes he draws life of surrounding lifeform, turning all like an arid desert of Harad. Surrouding enemy units lose 10% of attack and armor while enemy heroes' lose 10% of attack and their abilities take 10% longer time to recharge once used.

The classic influence of a Nazgûl with some improvements against heroes.

Level 5: Burning Sand : The Forsaken temporary turns a medium area into a desert terrain. The burning sand slow down severely enemy heroes and units slowly damaging them.

Level 8: Cursed Spear : The Forsaken's spear causes terrible and incurable wounds. The selected enemy hero is damaged and marked by the spear for a certain time: every time the marked hero is hit by the lance he lose 5% of armor up to 50%.

An alternative to Morgul Blade which fits best for a spear master

Level 10: Desert Terror : The Forsaken temporary summons five black scorpion of Harad. These terrible creatures have high single damage thanks to the powerful pinces: they can easly shear off even the best of the armor. Futhermore they have the ability to sting a single unit or hero poisoning him over the time and slowing down due to paralization effect of the venom (-25% of speed).

Scorpion model and animation from vanilla's Gorkil mount (totally out of place in the original game). These monsters are awaken from under the sand to chase down a weak hero or monster eventually finishing the target.



OakenShield224

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #100 am: 8. Mai 2018, 17:30 »
From a gameplay point of view, I really like this idea Aule! It fits with the main ideas of a Nazgul while adding some uniqueness that comes with Harad. The main obstacle to do with this would be whether the Team would wish to have the Nazgul in another faction (especially when all 9 are currently in Mordor). That's up to them though. I see you have thought about the lore context of the hero.

I do have one question and one suggestion about the proposal. Firstly, would the effects of Cursed Spear be permanent?

My suggestion concerns the Burning Sand ability. Currently, it seems like you cast it on an area and that area then gets affected. One ability could be that it acts as an enhancement to the Plaguing Aura ability. So you'd activate Burning Sand and the area around the Nazgul would be affected (along with any enemies in that area). If the Nazgul then moves while the ability is active, the corrupted area would follow the Nazgul. It would act as a trail, so it would be left behind for a few seconds and then disappear once the Nazgul has moved away. I don't know if this is technically possible but I hope that you like the idea.

dkbluewizard

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #101 am: 14. Mai 2018, 00:52 »
Well Aule, the ideas are great. But if you're going from a lore standpoint which I think is the reason why you included the names for these nazgul--it says that Herumor and Fuinur rose to power AFTER the downfall of Numenor. How could they be nazgul then?

Sorry to be a thorn. But that is what it says unfortunately. I really like the idea. If no one cares about that then lead on!

Oh because the nazgul appear in 2251 Appendix B in the Return of the King. Herumor and his brother are later.
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Mai 2018, 00:55 von dkbluewizard »
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #102 am: 15. Mai 2018, 14:42 »
Oak: sorry for the late answer man. You are right is up to them implementing or not Nazguls externally to Mordor. But I would like to see something I propose because it cuold give some pernsonality and characterization to another wraith. The theme of origin of the nine intrigues me, with all the mystery around it.

Dkblue: you're actually right I misplace the first appearance of the Nazguls. I should revise the lore part of the work.
 In fact another interesting point about Harad is the Melkor adoration/dark cult. I thought also to revolve my character around this theme before connecting him to Heromur. He could be an ancient chieftain of Harad (a precursor of Herumor and his brother), who devolve himself to the cult of Morgoth. No information are given about any line of Haradrim kings in the lore.

Garlodur

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #103 am: 16. Mai 2018, 19:23 »
Interesting concept Aulë!

Though I must agree with dkbluewizard; according to the lore these two figures among the Haradrim only rose to power after the Nazgul were created. You could twist it to say that they were Nazgul in disguise but I don't quite follow that line of thought. It would suggest that, much like the Witch-King, these figures should have been capable of establishing a realm of divided peoples to counter the might of Gondor. Yet the Annals indicate that Gondor was pestered often, never as near to destruction as Arnor: at least of the hands of these two.

Still, you touch upon a topic I am also still struggling to incorporate in my concept above. Perhaps you would like to shed a closer look upon this proposal, although I have been working quite a bit on improving it and bringing points together.

The main topic of confusion for me is Khamul. I want to simultaneously implement him as the central figure of the faction that unites the Men of Darkness for good, and have him play most of his part through influencing other leaders, seeing him as more of a lieutenant (literally 'place-holder') of Sauron. The reason for my suggesting is that Khamul could not have always been amongst the Easterling, Haradrim, Corsairs, Black Numenoreans, Variag etc. because he was also an agent of the Dark Lord's 'secret' service. Most notably is the period between TA 2951 and TA 3018 during which he was stationed in Dol Guldur.

I conclude that the most feasible way of influencing the Men of Darkness was through an established cult, either towards Sauron or Morgoth. Perhaps Khamul was more like a pope is to christianity, or maybe he was more akin in his ways to Annatar, ultimately guiding Haradrim and Easterling leaders to the same fate as Ar-Pharazon the Golden. Or perhaps Khamul reclaimed his former position as king of Easterlings and extended his reign over all Men of the East and South, forming a massive empire or a 'union of republics'

I always appreciate your thoughts
Garlodur

dkbluewizard

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Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
« Antwort #104 am: 16. Mai 2018, 23:45 »
Aule, your ideas are perfect. Just make up a name or go with one of the other nazgul. It would still work.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.