Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions

[Julio229]

I was thinking about the Nameless Things that roam beneath Khâzad Dûm, but they never had any sort of connections with the faction, so I wasn't sure if it was worthwhile to share it. Nevertheless, I think they are a mysterious part of Tolkien's lore, and I think they could be interesting to have in game.

[Walküre]

It's a very interesting topic. I have to say that I'm not quite sure about what kind of role those creatures might ever have in the game though. The Nameless Things are said to be absolutely mysterious entities dwelling in the obscure depths of Arda; via Gandalf's words, Tolkien tells us that not even Sauron exactly comprehends their nature. We are also told that they are even older than the Dark Lord himself, even though I regard this statement as quite contradictory to the lore guidelines codified in the Silmarillion, which rightly have the Ainur as the oldest ones among all physical creatures (given that their very age can't be measured and anything made of matter was initially conceived in thought in the ancestral context of the Timeless Halls). I nonetheless accept the fact that some very primordial beasts could have existed since the beginning of Arda without the Ainur being completely aware of that. It's perfectly possible and there are many of such cases in the lore.

That said, it's plainly obvious that we are provided with nearly nothing concerning the Nameless Things' appearance, properties and exact powers. Alongside this extreme lack of information, we have to face another conceptual issue, that involves gameplay equally: the whole idea of summoning a dreadful remnant of a past age (alien to the 'common' environment of the Goblins) is already well represented by the Balrog. Simply said, the Maia is an ancient demon that had been lurking in the shadows until his manifestation in LOTR. Having another spell that feeds from those same premises would be quite redundant.

My idea was centred around the possibility of exploring Azog's (the Defiler's) commander-like side in BOTFA even more, maybe with the arrival of special reinforcements (legions) from Gundabad (of which some could consist of the armoured trolls mentioned previously). Nevertheless, opting for this typology of spells is quite simplistic in the end. I hope more contributions will be given during the debate.

[Julio229]

I like your idea of having an army from Gundabad as the other tier 4 spell, it would fit the faction quite nicely, and it has in fact more relation to the Goblins than the Nameless Things!

If the Nameless Things are to be considered, though, it is said that they gnaw the world, and remembering the Were-Worms from the BOTFA film (That in the books were thought to be a legend, and live in the Last Desert), and the general Goblin feeling, I think that they could be Tunnel Makers in a sense, giving you the ability to make four tunnels anywhere in the map (except in bases, of course). It would use the iconic tunnels for the Goblins, and bring together some concepts both from books and films (the Nameless Things opening tunnels for the Legions of Gundabad to come to the battle).

The concept of the Nameless Things could even be mixed with your idea! How about being able to use the Nameless Things to open a tunnel that spawns Gundabad reinforcements (The Azog army of your idea)? I think it could be interesting and would make it different from the other Tier 4 summon spells.

[TheDarkOne]

The Gundabad army summon spell looks very much like Isengard Unleashed. Nameless things are too mysterious and obscure beings to be applied into the game. More importantly, they care little what happens above (obviously).

[kmogon]

And what about implementing BOTFA's command centre - I mean that thing on raven's hill. It would be summoned pernamently ( a big signal fires' like stone with horn and that wodden thing on the top ) which grants choosen leadership to goblins on whole map ( feg. 20% damage OR 10%dmg, 10% arm OR 20% arm ) or does other bonuses, like exploring big part or whole map or giving choosen damage bonuses to structures or uints .

[Julio229]

I like that too! It would bring an aspect of BOTFA's Army I really liked, and would be useful to make the Goblins (Which I expect to be more of a swarm army than a powerful one) battle with the strength of Late-game factions.

[UdunPlayer]

Well, my idea of the avalanch was only to summon big rocks falling at enemies, not the summon of a stone titan's model throwing them (let's face, in the movies they were just to big for giants, were more like titans haha). However, the roaring sounds of those giants would be cool only for the sake of giving the power a great sound. But looks that we won't seem something like that power become real, cause as DieWalkure said edain team is not interested and they don't like the stone giants concept. I don't like that concept for the mod too, that is why my idea was only to have the rocks falling in the battlefield.

Now, the idea of BOTFA's command centre is really good, that thing would need to give really good bonuses for all units in the battlefield considering we are talking of the second 10 points spellbook. Or maybe it could have an own palantir with many orders that affect all units in battlefield, in the movie that command center was moving along with Azog's orders. What abilities and effects will be in that palantir, I'm not sure, but they have to be "orders-related". Also, aesthethically, it would be a nice thing to see in-game.

[Walküre]

The Gundabad army summon spell looks very much like Isengard Unleashed.

Not so much, I would say. The same thing could be said in regards of the other factions' summoning spells (the Last Alliance, the Rohirrim, the Ents,...). The very summoning motive is something naturally recurrent in pretty much all spellbooks; what really makes the real difference, in my opinion, is the content of those spells. I thus would never see the general idea of summoning troops as a lack of differentiation.

I like the suggestion of Julio, according to which Nameless Things would have the subtle role of allowing the sudden storming of Gundabad hordes, without the need to specify further graphical or conceptual characteristics of these said creatures. Nevertheless, the obscurity of the lore in reference to them is still something challenging to deal with: it's very likely that Nameless Things, despite their natural dangerousness, are completely neutral and not willing at all to side with this or that faction.

In light of what has been pointed out so far, the strategic device used by Azog and his legions in BOTFA seems to be the most feasible solution. It might also balance the spellbook itself: the Balrog spell fashioned on the iconic sequence of LOTR and the other ultimate spell on the last chapter of the Hobbit trilogy. I find this a very even and just perspective under which we can develop more structured proposals.

[TheDarkOne]

There's no point in summoning an army of Gundabad orcs who are basically 100% weaker than elves or uruks summoned via their respective spells. Only if the gained advantage of using 4 tier spell is worth waiting and gathering PP to use it.

The insane unit recruitment speed allows MM to continuously attack an enemy by wave after wave. This also allows them to recover the forces quickly even if they were completely annihilated.

There is no need for a quick army summon. Misty mountains could get enourmous mobility by summoning controllable wereworms, able to dig anywhere on the map (including the fog of war). And the cave could remain permamently (because something simillar but temporary already exists in the form of goblin sappers).

[Walküre]

Only if the gained advantage of using 4 tier spell is worth waiting and gathering PP to use it.

It's quite obvious that, if we really were to conceive an ultimate spell, this spell won't summon any kind of generic units nor weak meat shield to randomly throw against the enemy. That's why I hinted at the possible inclusion of armoured trolls or some sort of elite units that otherwise wouldn't have the chance to be part of the faction (I guess the very word 'legions' really gives a sense of more advanced warfare than simply pillaging or storming in waves). A spell which is worth waiting and fighting for.

The Edain Team has already made it clear that they didn't like BOTFA giant worms either, deeming them quite grotesque: they are thus not going to implement them.

[Julio229]

I agree with DieWälkure, this wouldn't be a regular summon, it would have special elite units, and I agree about the Armored Trolls. In my opinion, it would differentiate itself from the other summoning tier 4 powers thanks to having better units than what the regular faction has, and they would be quite unique because of their way of spawning. I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.

[Walküre]

I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.

A very significant aspect this is. A momentary feature which might give that sense and enable us to explore a bit the potential of the Defiler as a commander (the theme characterising him in BOTFA, while having had the role of a hunter in AUJ and DOS). All of this could be achieved via clever mechanics, without altering the main conceptual foundations the Edain Team wanted this faction to be endowed with (speed, aggressiveness, a loose approach and unpredictability).

I really appreciate the way the discussion is being led: we are addressing very pivotal issues, referred to a defined context and so connected with each other. May the debate continue fruitfully 

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

I think it would also represent the moment when Misty Mountains stop being a disjointed faction and become the unified army that marched against Erebor, their new elite units reflecting that.

That's actually what Bolg does with his recruitment and his abilities (as already presented). Gundabad is a subfaction of the Misty Mountains, so we won't include them in a summon or something similar.
Tier 4 spells are the Dragon Strike and the Balrog.

[Walküre]

Tier 4 spells are the Dragon Strike and the Balrog.

Don't you think there is an issue of differentiation and uniqueness regarding this choice?

I believe Smaug should be made the only major dragon to focus on in the faction, for the series of reasons we have discussed so far (his fundamental role in the Hobbit trilogy, the fact of being a Ring hero, his potential as an exceptional hero and so on). Having an ultimate spell based on that same dragon-motive would not be very much unique, in my opinion. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, hasn't the Dragon Strike basically remained the same since BFME2? I totally understand why the summoning of the Balrog has the absolute right to be kept in the spellbook (it's an iconic legacy from BFME1), but, for the other 4-tier spell, I guess we could come up with a new concept.

Another aspect. We were previously debating about the nature of Smaug's leadership in the faction's structure. Since the direct allegiance/connection between creatures as Winged Dragons and the Goblins themselves can sometimes be problematical, wouldn't an ultimate Goblins-based spell resolve those problematics and balance all the different souls of the Misty Mountains? That is, finding a balance among Orcs, Dragons, the Balrog and the other monsters; alongside the scope for additional innovative solutions.

[TheDarkOne]

Sounds cool. You could develop that idea of levelling him up by collecting treassure or whatever. This could eventually inspire ET to apply this.