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Autor Thema: Unit and Hero Categories  (Gelesen 4045 mal)

Garlodur

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Unit and Hero Categories
« am: 10. Nov 2016, 15:54 »
Hello The_Necromancer0,

You are doing a great job with this Wiki page! I believe it is very useful for new players but also more experienced who want to quickly check a certain unit's abilities instead of heading into the game.

I have a question that concerns the organisation of units in certain unit categories: have you organised units in the categories you seem fit, have other users done so, or are these the official categories used by the Edain Team?
To me it seems that especially the 'Elite' and 'Heroic' pages are quite all over the place, categorising units in a very inconsistent way. I feel quite cross about the 'Monster' category as well but this might be due to the vagueness surrounding Monsters: are only  single units from Evil factions monsters, should also single units from Good factions be categorised this way, or should single units from Good Factions be organised in Elite or Heroic categories?

I would like to help out with this if you agree to, because I simply enjoy organising things. Things I would like to address in addition would be the categories heroes are assigned to as well, but due to their flexibility and distinct use in different tactical situations this might be more linked to personal playing style. I would not mind in this case to write Strategy guides for some heroes; altough I will never admit to be the best player at the game, there are certain strategic options that will improve everyone's game.
 

Julio229

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #1 am: 10. Nov 2016, 16:05 »
Elite category is where units that are better than regular ones (Such as Tower Guards), but haven't got the qualities that a Heroic unit has, belong.

Heroic units are the ones that have a limit, are the strongest and have requirements such as Forged Blades to be recruitable.

Monsters are just that, creatures. Ents would also qualify as Monsters, I think, but Dragonslayers would not qualify as that because they are just Dwarves, and not creatures.

I hope I helped!


The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #2 am: 10. Nov 2016, 16:54 »
Hello and thanks for your feedback  :)

You are right indeed, the categories are quite inconsistent for certain unit types. Cavalry, Swordsmen, Pikemen and Archers are better organized because they are more simple, heroic and elite on the other side are up to the contributors judgement which means they vary from page to page and from contributors to contributor. The Category system was created way back at the beginning back in a time when we still thought we could fit every unit, hero and building on their faction page, so it's become a bit obsolete.

The Monster, Elite and Heroic are the most inconsistent because they aren't specifically stated anywhere in the game , or at least we haven't paid enough attention. Any help with that is welcome, since categories are key to allowing users to find other pages similar to the one they are on. Those are my thoughts in addition to Julio's, which are also valid.

The heroes of all are the most inconsistent because they are purely judgement, there is no categorization in the game that says such hero is a tank  or such hero is a hero killer, they are only assumption made by the contributors of the abilities and stats of the heroes. So the hero categories can definitely be changed, although a lot was based on a post by the Edain Team if I remember correctly. We did change a couple that felt wrong.

If you wish to help with the categories I would be very thankful for any improvements made to the system would greatly improve the quality of the wiki. So go right one ahead, I look forward to your ideas.
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Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #3 am: 10. Nov 2016, 18:28 »
Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.

OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #4 am: 10. Nov 2016, 18:38 »
Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #5 am: 11. Nov 2016, 11:47 »
Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?

I think we should include them, yes. 

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #6 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:15 »
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?
I disagree, in that case we should also add every hero depending on whether they're cavalry, archers, pikemen or swordsmen. I see hero and unit as different branches of the category tree, each with its own separate set of sub-categories which shouldn't intertwine. But I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts.

Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.

Agree, I'll use the Wiki Bot if everybody agrees to rename everything.

Here's how I think we should do reorganize categories:
Each unit will have one of the 7 main categories:
-Swordsmen
-Pikemen
-Archer
-Cavalry
-Creature
-Siege
-Support
and in addition they will also gain, if necessary, one of the additional categories of either Elite or Heroic. A couple examples:
Tower Guards: Pikemen and Elite
Shadow Guard: Swordsmen and Heroic
Morgul Archer: Archers and Elite
Royal Guard: Cavalry and Heroic
Drummer Troll: Creature and Elite
ect...

If Garlodur wishes I will split the topic starting from his original reply into a new thread since this is getting quite off topic from the original purpose of this thread. On the newly created thread we can continue discussing the reorganization of categories.

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Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #7 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:27 »
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?
I disagree, in that case we should also add every hero depending on whether they're cavalry, archers, pikemen or swordsmen. I see hero and unit as different branches of the category tree, each with its own separate set of sub-categories which shouldn't intertwine. But I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts.

Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.

Agree, I'll use the Wiki Bot if everybody agrees to rename everything.

Here's how I think we should do reorganize categories:
Each unit will have one of the 7 main categories:
-Swordsmen
-Pikemen
-Archer
-Cavalry
-Creature
-Siege
-Support
and in addition they will also gain, if necessary, one of the additional categories of either Elite or Heroic. A couple examples:
Tower Guards: Pikemen and Elite
Shadow Guard: Swordsmen and Heroic
Morgul Archer: Archers and Elite
Royal Guard: Cavalry and Heroic
Drummer Troll: Creature and Elite
ect...

If Garlodur wishes I will split the topic starting from his original reply into a new thread since this is getting quite off topic from the original purpose of this thread. On the newly created thread we can continue discussing the reorganization of categories.
Drummer troll imo shouldn't be Elite, they are not much stronger than ordinary trolls, they just provide bonus to nearby units.
Creature category seems nice.

Julio229

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #8 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:46 »
Maybe Drummer Trolls could be support and creatures?


OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #9 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:53 »
I agree with the category ideas and the ideas about the heroes that Necro mentioned. I agree that Drummer Trolls seem more like support units than elite units.

Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #10 am: 13. Nov 2016, 20:50 »
This is looking like a good discussion with many people up to participate in it.

I agree with The_Necromancer0 that this deserves a separate topic though, in order to make the subject more distinct amongst other topics.

Here's how I think we should do reorganize categories:
Each unit will have one of the 7 main categories:
-Swordsmen
-Pikemen
-Archer
-Cavalry
-Creature
-Siege
-Support
and in addition they will also gain, if necessary, one of the additional categories of either Elite or Heroic. A couple examples:
Tower Guards: Pikemen and Elite
Shadow Guard: Swordsmen and Heroic
Morgul Archer: Archers and Elite
Royal Guard: Cavalry and Heroic
Drummer Troll: Creature and Elite
ect...

I agree that this categorisation will help distinguishing units that come in groups/battalions of 5 to 20 units. The issue comes with Single units that are stronger than individual units in a battalion, a category under which all arguable fall (except those without attack possibilities like Elven Minstrels or Sorcerers).
However, I believe that Single units often transgress the boundaries of being Creature, Standard or Elite. The biggest problem is that a regular Mountain Troll starts out as a Standard Creature, compared to the Drummer Troll who is categorised by ET as an Elite Creature due to his price. A Mountain Troll can evolve to an Attack Troll, however, when buying his upgrades, which might classify him as an Elite Creature. Quite a tricky definition thus.

I would suggest that the Creature category is removed and that the secondary categorisation is extended with the Single Unit, since this is clearly what distinguishes these units from battalions and siege weapons.

An example:

Mordor Overseers: Support and Single
Lesser Wraith: Support and Single
Morgul Shadow: Single
Mountain Trolls: Single (and Siege)
Drummer Trolls: (Elite) Single
Mumak: (Elite) Single
Gorthaur's Werewolf: (Elite) Single

Uruk Berserker: Single
Mine Berserker: Single
Ugluk Scout: (Elite) Single

Thrall Master: Support and Single
Wight: Single
Werewolf: (Elite) Single

Elven Minstrel: Support and Single
Ent: (Elite) Single
Ash Ent: (Elite) Single
Beorning: Single

Loremaster: Support and (Elite) Single
Eagle: (Elite) Single

Ram Rider: Support and Single --> Elite Cavalry
Dragon Slayer: Single

Anybody feel free to copy and change this list to your opinion.

I agree that there still is a difference between many Single units and Monsters: it seems a very difficult category all the same. The point that complicates the division is that Single units do compare to each other the way Swordsmen do in terms of strengths and weaknesses: most have great efficiency (which might explain the missclassification as Elite units) whereas others have a proper niche to fill in supporting units. The question is where the limit is on assigning categories to units: should all fall under one or two categories max, or is a third indication more than helpful in many cases?

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #11 am: 13. Nov 2016, 23:27 »
Garlodur, I agree with you that the categorization for these units can be tricky.  However, I would still defend a "Creature" category because we also categorize units by race: Gondor Soldiers are Men, Rivendell Lancers Elves, etc.  It's silly to make a category "Eagles" because only eagles and Gwaihir would be in it, so the solution would seem to be to make a generic "Creature" category.  A different discussion could be if we should even categorize them by race since that has to do more with LOTR lore than Edain Mod game mechanics (personally I like the race categories).

Concerning single units, I would support the idea of making an additional category for them since they are harder to classify, a "single unit" category or something like that. 

Personally, I like having many categories.  It allows for more specific exploration.  This is just my humble opinion, hope it all makes sense.

Julio229

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #12 am: 14. Nov 2016, 00:19 »
Garlodur, I agree with you that the categorization for these units can be tricky.  However, I would still defend a "Creature" category because we also categorize units by race: Gondor Soldiers are Men, Rivendell Lancers Elves, etc.  It's silly to make a category "Eagles" because only eagles and Gwaihir would be in it, so the solution would seem to be to make a generic "Creature" category.  A different discussion could be if we should even categorize them by race since that has to do more with LOTR lore than Edain Mod game mechanics (personally I like the race categories).

Concerning single units, I would support the idea of making an additional category for them since they are harder to classify, a "single unit" category or something like that. 

Personally, I like having many categories.  It allows for more specific exploration.  This is just my humble opinion, hope it all makes sense.

I fully agree with this, the "Creature" category can be treated as the same as the Men, Elves or Dwarves category, and should remain, but a Single category could also be made.

That way, we could include Dire Wolves (for example) in the Creature category, and keep them being different categories.


OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #13 am: 14. Nov 2016, 17:23 »
Just bear in mind that we already have some categories of troll and ent. What would happen to these? I'm guessing that troll, ent or eagle heroes wouldn't go into the creature category then.

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #14 am: 14. Nov 2016, 21:37 »
Just bear in mind that we already have some categories of troll and ent. What would happen to these? I'm guessing that troll, ent or eagle heroes wouldn't go into the creature category then.

I would argue that the troll and ent categories are still valid as specifications of the type of creature.  I think of the "Ent" and "Troll" categories as being sub-categories of "Creatures".  Each of those two categories has more than just a few units and therefore the existence of their categories is justified for me. 

As for troll, ent, and eagle heroes, I still think they should go in the "Creature" category because that is their "race" so to say.  Boromir is labelled "Men", Legolas "Elves", so I don't see why not.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #15 am: 15. Nov 2016, 19:43 »
Just bear in mind that we already have some categories of troll and ent. What would happen to these? I'm guessing that troll, ent or eagle heroes wouldn't go into the creature category then.

I would argue that the troll and ent categories are still valid as specifications of the type of creature.  I think of the "Ent" and "Troll" categories as being sub-categories of "Creatures".  Each of those two categories has more than just a few units and therefore the existence of their categories is justified for me. 

As for troll, ent, and eagle heroes, I still think they should go in the "Creature" category because that is their "race" so to say.  Boromir is labelled "Men", Legolas "Elves", so I don't see why not.
Disagree: Imagine the "Troll" category would have only 3 units: Attack Troll, Drummer Troll and Mollok.
The same goes with ents: Treebeard, Quickbeam, Ent, and Ash Ent. Not even talk about eagles which would contain only 2 entries: Gwaihir and Eagle.

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #16 am: 15. Nov 2016, 20:38 »
The Troll category actually has 8 pages in it, and there could be more to come with the Misty Mountains faction.  It is true that the Ent category only has 4 pages in it, but I think that 4 is enough to justify its own category.  As for an eagle category, we don't have one and I wouldn't suggest it since there are only 2 pages to go there.  This is where the generic creature category would cover them.  The generic creature category would cover the trolls and ents too, but since there are more than just one or two pages for those, they also get their own category.  Maybe I'm not explaining myself well, I'm sorry. 

Or, if there is no agreement, we could just scrap the troll and ent categories and let them all just be creatures without also giving them more specific categories.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #17 am: 15. Nov 2016, 21:18 »
The Troll category actually has 8 pages in it, and there could be more to come with the Misty Mountains faction.
Indeed, sorry about that I didn't notice. You're right: there probably be more pages in Troll category when the Misty mountains come out. I'm for the Creature category to replace Monster.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #18 am: 21. Nov 2016, 15:14 »
This is a tricky issue, after much pondering I give my support to using the "Single" category and removing the "Monster/Creature" category. Then we can add a category to every unit that categorises as a Monster or Creature based on its race (Troll, Ent, Eagle, ect...)

I think the best way to go through this is to go through the factions units by units, later tonight I will post a complete list of all the units (if possible split up by factions) and then Garlodur, if you want, you can just takes chunks out of this list and categorize them, if not I'll do it but I'm a bit short on time at the moment. Once that is done we'll discuss each chunks individually until we reach some sort of agreement, then I'll use the bot fix all the categories and it should be all good. How does that sound?

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Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #19 am: 21. Nov 2016, 17:39 »
This is a tricky issue, after much pondering I give my support to using the "Single" category and removing the "Monster/Creature" category. Then we can add a category to every unit that categorises as a Monster or Creature based on its race (Troll, Ent, Eagle, ect...)

I think the best way to go through this is to go through the factions units by units, later tonight I will post a complete list of all the units (if possible split up by factions) and then Garlodur, if you want, you can just takes chunks out of this list and categorize them, if not I'll do it but I'm a bit short on time at the moment. Once that is done we'll discuss each chunks individually until we reach some sort of agreement, then I'll use the bot fix all the categories and it should be all good. How does that sound?
Good.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #20 am: 21. Nov 2016, 19:07 »
Those are all the units there are, I'll add the categories as we agree on them so anybody wishing to participate can immediately catch up to where we are or discuss any of the chosen categories.

A
B

C

D

E
F
Farmhands - Pikemen

G

H

I

K
Knights of Dol Amroth - Heroic, Cavalry

L

M

O

P

R

S

T
U

V
Veterans of Khazad Dum - Heroic, Swordsmen
Veterans of the Last Alliance - Heroic, Swordsmen

W

Y
Yeoman - Archer

Z
Zealots - Swordsmen
« Letzte Änderung: 11. Dez 2016, 05:55 von The_Necromancer0 »
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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #21 am: 24. Nov 2016, 18:00 »
Crazy week, I finally have second to myself though so I thought I'd take that time to start of the debate with the letters A & B, here is my insight on the categories for units starting with the letters A & B:

Ambassadors from the Ringlo Vale - Swordsmen
Angmar Tribute - Support
Archers from Morthond - Archer
Arkenguard - Swordsmen, Elite
Army of the Dead - Elite, Swordsmen
Arnor Archers - Archer
Arnor Knights - Cavalry
Axe Fighters from Lossarnach - Swordsmen
Axe Throwers - Archer

Battering Ram- Siege
Battlewagon - Cavalry
Beorning - Elite, Cavalry, Swordsmen
Black Knights - Heroic, Cavalry
Black Riders - Heroic, Cavalry, Swordsmen
Black Uruk Archers - Heroic, Archer
Black Uruk-Hais - Heroic, Swordsmen
Blade Masters of Rivendell - Elite, Swordsmen
Bone Crushers - Elite, Swordsmen

The only one I'm not sure about is the army of the dead, I'm not sure what they would be classified as. So if anybody has any other opinion about any of these units make sure to mention it. Our goal by the end of this is to have a consistent category system with only a few exceptions.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #22 am: 26. Nov 2016, 23:01 »
Let me do C till the end then:


The most important issue with the Single category is that units that fall under it have different strenghts and weaknesses. This is why they do not easily fall under the Swordsmen/Cavalry etc. classification as their mechanics take a bend slightly outside the rock-paper-scissors system that ET holds. For example, Battlewagons miss the strength of real cavalry against buildings, but have extra support functions; similar issue with Beorning who transgresses categories. I believe this is the essence of Single units: an individual unit that does more or less what a combination of several categories describes. This is not the same as hybrid units like Galadhrim or Guardians of the Citadel, who have strengths depending on the situation. For indication purposes I have added in brackets the most fitting secondary categorisation for Single units.
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Nov 2016, 23:05 von Garlodur »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #23 am: 28. Nov 2016, 12:02 »
Very impressive work, I didn't expect all to be done so quickly, allow me to feedback on it all, since you've done it all I will merely mention the one I disagree with, I also encourage anyone who stumbles on this post to comment their thoughts on the way the units have been categorised.


Everything sounds pretty good and unless anybody has anything else to say about them I'll add them to the list and we can debate those last few.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #24 am: 30. Nov 2016, 21:55 »
Thank you for your response. In fact, it didn't take me much time. It's all in my head  :o

I agree with your decision to take out the hybrid categories. I myself did not know so well what to do with them. They do not deserve their own category but otherwise it needs to be made very clear that these units wield different weapons.

I do have some comments, however, about other things


I am glad we agree at other points, it makes this process very transparent. Nevertheless, if someone has questions regarding the classification, I am happy to explain the premises I held.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #25 am: 1. Dez 2016, 12:49 »
This process is moving quickly along the way, not much left to do. I agree with the siege things, after a bit of thinking it makes sense for siege to be unclassifiable since most late game siege is more unique rather than stronger, apart from the Troll Catapult, but that's the only case. So agree on keeping it just siege and on most of the other points. Only two point remain on which I disagree:

Gondor Knights - Elite, Cavalry
So, I decided the best way to settle this was to look at the number and you're right, they are as strong as the Meduseld Cavalry summoned by Rohan Captains. So, definitely agree on their Elite classification here.

Grond - Siege, Heroic
Uhm...That's a good question. Let me think about it a bit more, also if anybody has thoughts on the matter make sure to write them down, I'm not sure about this one.

Also, I've updated my original post with all the categories we've agreed on, but anybody is free to debate them if they wish.
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Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #26 am: 1. Dez 2016, 16:27 »
Grond should definetly be heroic (well you can make on;y one Grond per game).

OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #27 am: 1. Dez 2016, 17:38 »
Grond should definetly be heroic (well you can make on;y one Grond per game).
Agree.

Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #28 am: 6. Dez 2016, 21:44 »
I am very nitpicky about the categorisation of units in this case.

The thing with Grond is that it does not follow the premises of a heroic unit, who always come in battalions of five and with a build limit of three (with the exception of Boromir's Guardians of the White City, of whom you can have 9). Furthermore, I agree that like heroic units Grond is harder to obtain due to restrictions in the early and middle game. As such he appears in late game exclusively.

I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons: you can make only one , it gets own selection icon at the bottom of the UI, and it deals incredible damage for the long time it takes to take it down. On top of that, he has a name and a unique place in the tales of Middle-Earth, allegedly being the same Hammer of the Underworld Morgoth held and what not.

If people say he does not belong to the Hero category, I would say to look at heroes like Treebeard, Quickbeam, or summoned heroes (Eagles, Tom Bombadil, Rogash), none of whom have a full palantír of abilities but have significant strengths of their own. Grond is one of such heroes, less traditional but more unique than standard heroes.

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #29 am: 6. Dez 2016, 23:39 »
I wasn't sure what to think about the topic of Grond, but I think Garlodur makes some good arguments and therefore I would support Grond being a Hero too.  It may not be like conventional heroes, but in my opinion it fits the hero category better than the heroic category. 

 
On top of that, he has a name and a unique place in the tales of Middle-Earth, allegedly being the same Hammer of the Underworld Morgoth held and what not.

(it was only named after Morgoth's Hammer, but I think the point you made is still valid.)

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #30 am: 7. Dez 2016, 12:26 »
I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #31 am: 7. Dez 2016, 13:37 »
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

All heroic units in the mod have at least one active ability too

Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #32 am: 8. Dez 2016, 17:11 »
I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

On the contrary, Grond has many abilities, there are just not shown in the Palantír. Let me make a comparison to a regular battering ram: Grond deals massively more damage, Grond defends itself with the archers on top (and crushes enemies?), Grond can attack walls, and Grond has the amount of health that makes him withstand heavy fire for a long time. No other siege weapon is so versatile and destructive as Grond, justifying his Hero classification.
This description should be made into a passive ability taking up a Palantír slot in order to make the information more available in-game too, but this is more of a suggestion.

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #33 am: 8. Dez 2016, 17:30 »
I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

On the contrary, Grond has many abilities, there are just not shown in the Palantír. Let me make a comparison to a regular battering ram: Grond deals massively more damage, Grond defends itself with the archers on top (and crushes enemies?), Grond can attack walls, and Grond has the amount of health that makes him withstand heavy fire for a long time. No other siege weapon is so versatile and destructive as Grond, justifying his Hero classification.
This description should be made into a passive ability taking up a Palantír slot in order to make the information more available in-game too, but this is more of a suggestion.
Good points! Actually I agree categorising it as a hero. Grond will be an extraordinary hero comparing to others in this category but yeah, I think it deserves the hero role.

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #34 am: 8. Dez 2016, 17:46 »
Indeed, some very good arguments across the board. Garlodur has presented us with many valid arguments. I support his decision to make Grond a hero, it will require a bit of restructuration but should be easy to do.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #35 am: 10. Dez 2016, 22:28 »
Thanks for the support!

Next up, the hero categories. I feel that in general they are quite correct, but I would like to change the premises for how they are organised. The biggest problem I have is that some hero roles are defined by a single ability only, disregarding the general feel of said hero.

Example: Elrond is quite a versatile hero, having the leadership over the Imladris faction. But his categorisation of Hero Supporter only is incorrect. I understand his Restoration ability is iconic and very powerful, but his Mass Slayer abilties (Rage of the Loudwater, Vilya's Wrath mainly, Mount that tramples, passive with area-of-effect damage) are negelcted in this role.

I understand The_Necromancer0 copied the roles given by ET, but some of their concepts have changed into other directions sometimes, thus favouring a recategorisation.

What are your thoughts on this hero and do you have other striking examples of misfits?

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #36 am: 11. Dez 2016, 06:01 »
I think proceeding the same we we already have is the best way to go along this, the heroes because their role is up to interpretation are not as consistent as the units. The best way to do this I suggest is to stick one or two roles maximum per heroes, (except for Sauron who thanks to his forms can fill out several roles.) I've posted the list of heroes below to be edited later, if anybody wants to start this go right on ahead.


EDIT: I'll also be patching the units with the categories we have discussed.
« Letzte Änderung: 11. Dez 2016, 14:08 von The_Necromancer0 »
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #37 am: 23. Dez 2016, 02:24 »
All right, here we go.

I limited most hero categorisations to the maximum of two roles which are most characteristic of each hero. I prefer including whether the secondary role a hero has is important to mention, but not present in the core concept. However, exceptions need to be made and sometimes roles change when the hero gains the Ring, I will indicate this accordingly.




NOTES: I used the Monster Killer category once, for Bard, which obviously fits within Hero Killer category but I feel this distinction must be made explicit in some way.

On Special Unit Supporter
The hero has leadership abilities that do not function indiscriminately for all friendly units, but rather units of a specific type only (Thranduil supports Mirkwood-units, Brand supports Dale-units). This should not be a separate category but I believe it should be made more explicit that some leadership abilities are limited in effect to certain units.

On scouts
The scouts, or early game hero as envisioned by the Edain Team, differ a bit amongst themselves in terms of usefulness, but they are usely an cheap version of an All-Rounder

On Hero Interferers
Heroes like Grima, Shelob, Sharku, and Tauriel are not strong enough to deal with heroes on their own, but they have their ways of temporarily reducing their strenght. Therefore I want to propose a new category: Hero Interferer.
EDIT: I found the page that corresponds to this category, so there's no need to create a new one. It seems though that it's not properly hotlinked, and as such does not appear in the Categories tab at the top of the page. http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Hero_Interferer
« Letzte Änderung: 2. Jan 2017, 00:01 von Garlodur »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #38 am: 17. Jan 2017, 23:26 »
I finally had the time to look at everything and get back to you, sorry for the delay .I've had a look at your work and pretty much all of it seems on point. There are only a couple one I disagree one:
Aragorn - Hero Killer
Apart from athelas none of Aragorn's ability are meant for hero support. I think he should be only a Hero Killer.

I don't have anything to say about Arwen, she literally has one ability for each role, so I guess we'll just leave her as Hero Supporter.

For the Dark Marshal and Shadow Lord I would keep them solely as Unit Interferer. There Ring Hunter form is not nearly as important to be considered a vital part of their role.

Denethor - Unit Support
His only ability that affects building disables it for a couple seconds. I wouldn't consider it as support.

Faramir - (Special) Unit Supporter

Great Goblin - I'll just leave that one be for now, we don't know enough. It was showcased but it might have changed since then.

Malbeth - Hero Supporter

Mornamarth - Unit Supporter

Sauron is an exceptional case, his many forms (7 total) cover every role fully, so definitely on All Rouder categorization.

Everything else looks good. Also, fixed the hotlink. The menu had grown too big so I redid the menu, now you can see it all.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #39 am: 17. Feb 2017, 12:52 »
Hi Necro,

I wanted to make a small correction to Uglúk's categorisation. It seems many people classify him as Isengard's tank hero. Not playing Isengard so often I had not realised how tanky he indeed was, so I wanted to adjust his role.

Ugluk - Tank and Special Unit Supporter with Hero Interferer aspect

And also Mauhur's categorisation should be dealt with

Mauhur - Scout and Hero Killer

There, it should be good now. Keep up the good work.  ;)

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #40 am: 17. Feb 2017, 16:03 »
In that case, unless anybody else has anything else to say I'll do this over the week-end when I have some time.
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