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Autor Thema: Unit and Hero Categories  (Gelesen 3359 mal)

Garlodur

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Unit and Hero Categories
« am: 10. Nov 2016, 15:54 »
Hello The_Necromancer0,

You are doing a great job with this Wiki page! I believe it is very useful for new players but also more experienced who want to quickly check a certain unit's abilities instead of heading into the game.

I have a question that concerns the organisation of units in certain unit categories: have you organised units in the categories you seem fit, have other users done so, or are these the official categories used by the Edain Team?
To me it seems that especially the 'Elite' and 'Heroic' pages are quite all over the place, categorising units in a very inconsistent way. I feel quite cross about the 'Monster' category as well but this might be due to the vagueness surrounding Monsters: are only  single units from Evil factions monsters, should also single units from Good factions be categorised this way, or should single units from Good Factions be organised in Elite or Heroic categories?

I would like to help out with this if you agree to, because I simply enjoy organising things. Things I would like to address in addition would be the categories heroes are assigned to as well, but due to their flexibility and distinct use in different tactical situations this might be more linked to personal playing style. I would not mind in this case to write Strategy guides for some heroes; altough I will never admit to be the best player at the game, there are certain strategic options that will improve everyone's game.
 

Julio229

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #1 am: 10. Nov 2016, 16:05 »
Elite category is where units that are better than regular ones (Such as Tower Guards), but haven't got the qualities that a Heroic unit has, belong.

Heroic units are the ones that have a limit, are the strongest and have requirements such as Forged Blades to be recruitable.

Monsters are just that, creatures. Ents would also qualify as Monsters, I think, but Dragonslayers would not qualify as that because they are just Dwarves, and not creatures.

I hope I helped!


The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #2 am: 10. Nov 2016, 16:54 »
Hello and thanks for your feedback  :)

You are right indeed, the categories are quite inconsistent for certain unit types. Cavalry, Swordsmen, Pikemen and Archers are better organized because they are more simple, heroic and elite on the other side are up to the contributors judgement which means they vary from page to page and from contributors to contributor. The Category system was created way back at the beginning back in a time when we still thought we could fit every unit, hero and building on their faction page, so it's become a bit obsolete.

The Monster, Elite and Heroic are the most inconsistent because they aren't specifically stated anywhere in the game , or at least we haven't paid enough attention. Any help with that is welcome, since categories are key to allowing users to find other pages similar to the one they are on. Those are my thoughts in addition to Julio's, which are also valid.

The heroes of all are the most inconsistent because they are purely judgement, there is no categorization in the game that says such hero is a tank  or such hero is a hero killer, they are only assumption made by the contributors of the abilities and stats of the heroes. So the hero categories can definitely be changed, although a lot was based on a post by the Edain Team if I remember correctly. We did change a couple that felt wrong.

If you wish to help with the categories I would be very thankful for any improvements made to the system would greatly improve the quality of the wiki. So go right one ahead, I look forward to your ideas.
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Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #3 am: 10. Nov 2016, 18:28 »
Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.

OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #4 am: 10. Nov 2016, 18:38 »
Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #5 am: 11. Nov 2016, 11:47 »
Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?

I think we should include them, yes. 

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #6 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:15 »
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?
I disagree, in that case we should also add every hero depending on whether they're cavalry, archers, pikemen or swordsmen. I see hero and unit as different branches of the category tree, each with its own separate set of sub-categories which shouldn't intertwine. But I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts.

Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.

Agree, I'll use the Wiki Bot if everybody agrees to rename everything.

Here's how I think we should do reorganize categories:
Each unit will have one of the 7 main categories:
-Swordsmen
-Pikemen
-Archer
-Cavalry
-Creature
-Siege
-Support
and in addition they will also gain, if necessary, one of the additional categories of either Elite or Heroic. A couple examples:
Tower Guards: Pikemen and Elite
Shadow Guard: Swordsmen and Heroic
Morgul Archer: Archers and Elite
Royal Guard: Cavalry and Heroic
Drummer Troll: Creature and Elite
ect...

If Garlodur wishes I will split the topic starting from his original reply into a new thread since this is getting quite off topic from the original purpose of this thread. On the newly created thread we can continue discussing the reorganization of categories.

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Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #7 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:27 »
I like this idea. Would Gwaihir, the ent heroes and the Troll heroes be a part of this group?
I disagree, in that case we should also add every hero depending on whether they're cavalry, archers, pikemen or swordsmen. I see hero and unit as different branches of the category tree, each with its own separate set of sub-categories which shouldn't intertwine. But I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts.

Regarding the "Monster" category, perhaps we could rename this.  As Julio said, the units in this category are creatures, not human/elf/dwarf/etc.  So why not just call it the "Creature" category?  It's more neutral, and the poor ents will no longer have to be indignant about being called monsters.

Agree, I'll use the Wiki Bot if everybody agrees to rename everything.

Here's how I think we should do reorganize categories:
Each unit will have one of the 7 main categories:
-Swordsmen
-Pikemen
-Archer
-Cavalry
-Creature
-Siege
-Support
and in addition they will also gain, if necessary, one of the additional categories of either Elite or Heroic. A couple examples:
Tower Guards: Pikemen and Elite
Shadow Guard: Swordsmen and Heroic
Morgul Archer: Archers and Elite
Royal Guard: Cavalry and Heroic
Drummer Troll: Creature and Elite
ect...

If Garlodur wishes I will split the topic starting from his original reply into a new thread since this is getting quite off topic from the original purpose of this thread. On the newly created thread we can continue discussing the reorganization of categories.
Drummer troll imo shouldn't be Elite, they are not much stronger than ordinary trolls, they just provide bonus to nearby units.
Creature category seems nice.

Julio229

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #8 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:46 »
Maybe Drummer Trolls could be support and creatures?


OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #9 am: 11. Nov 2016, 18:53 »
I agree with the category ideas and the ideas about the heroes that Necro mentioned. I agree that Drummer Trolls seem more like support units than elite units.

Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #10 am: 13. Nov 2016, 20:50 »
This is looking like a good discussion with many people up to participate in it.

I agree with The_Necromancer0 that this deserves a separate topic though, in order to make the subject more distinct amongst other topics.

Here's how I think we should do reorganize categories:
Each unit will have one of the 7 main categories:
-Swordsmen
-Pikemen
-Archer
-Cavalry
-Creature
-Siege
-Support
and in addition they will also gain, if necessary, one of the additional categories of either Elite or Heroic. A couple examples:
Tower Guards: Pikemen and Elite
Shadow Guard: Swordsmen and Heroic
Morgul Archer: Archers and Elite
Royal Guard: Cavalry and Heroic
Drummer Troll: Creature and Elite
ect...

I agree that this categorisation will help distinguishing units that come in groups/battalions of 5 to 20 units. The issue comes with Single units that are stronger than individual units in a battalion, a category under which all arguable fall (except those without attack possibilities like Elven Minstrels or Sorcerers).
However, I believe that Single units often transgress the boundaries of being Creature, Standard or Elite. The biggest problem is that a regular Mountain Troll starts out as a Standard Creature, compared to the Drummer Troll who is categorised by ET as an Elite Creature due to his price. A Mountain Troll can evolve to an Attack Troll, however, when buying his upgrades, which might classify him as an Elite Creature. Quite a tricky definition thus.

I would suggest that the Creature category is removed and that the secondary categorisation is extended with the Single Unit, since this is clearly what distinguishes these units from battalions and siege weapons.

An example:

Mordor Overseers: Support and Single
Lesser Wraith: Support and Single
Morgul Shadow: Single
Mountain Trolls: Single (and Siege)
Drummer Trolls: (Elite) Single
Mumak: (Elite) Single
Gorthaur's Werewolf: (Elite) Single

Uruk Berserker: Single
Mine Berserker: Single
Ugluk Scout: (Elite) Single

Thrall Master: Support and Single
Wight: Single
Werewolf: (Elite) Single

Elven Minstrel: Support and Single
Ent: (Elite) Single
Ash Ent: (Elite) Single
Beorning: Single

Loremaster: Support and (Elite) Single
Eagle: (Elite) Single

Ram Rider: Support and Single --> Elite Cavalry
Dragon Slayer: Single

Anybody feel free to copy and change this list to your opinion.

I agree that there still is a difference between many Single units and Monsters: it seems a very difficult category all the same. The point that complicates the division is that Single units do compare to each other the way Swordsmen do in terms of strengths and weaknesses: most have great efficiency (which might explain the missclassification as Elite units) whereas others have a proper niche to fill in supporting units. The question is where the limit is on assigning categories to units: should all fall under one or two categories max, or is a third indication more than helpful in many cases?

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #11 am: 13. Nov 2016, 23:27 »
Garlodur, I agree with you that the categorization for these units can be tricky.  However, I would still defend a "Creature" category because we also categorize units by race: Gondor Soldiers are Men, Rivendell Lancers Elves, etc.  It's silly to make a category "Eagles" because only eagles and Gwaihir would be in it, so the solution would seem to be to make a generic "Creature" category.  A different discussion could be if we should even categorize them by race since that has to do more with LOTR lore than Edain Mod game mechanics (personally I like the race categories).

Concerning single units, I would support the idea of making an additional category for them since they are harder to classify, a "single unit" category or something like that. 

Personally, I like having many categories.  It allows for more specific exploration.  This is just my humble opinion, hope it all makes sense.

Julio229

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #12 am: 14. Nov 2016, 00:19 »
Garlodur, I agree with you that the categorization for these units can be tricky.  However, I would still defend a "Creature" category because we also categorize units by race: Gondor Soldiers are Men, Rivendell Lancers Elves, etc.  It's silly to make a category "Eagles" because only eagles and Gwaihir would be in it, so the solution would seem to be to make a generic "Creature" category.  A different discussion could be if we should even categorize them by race since that has to do more with LOTR lore than Edain Mod game mechanics (personally I like the race categories).

Concerning single units, I would support the idea of making an additional category for them since they are harder to classify, a "single unit" category or something like that. 

Personally, I like having many categories.  It allows for more specific exploration.  This is just my humble opinion, hope it all makes sense.

I fully agree with this, the "Creature" category can be treated as the same as the Men, Elves or Dwarves category, and should remain, but a Single category could also be made.

That way, we could include Dire Wolves (for example) in the Creature category, and keep them being different categories.


OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #13 am: 14. Nov 2016, 17:23 »
Just bear in mind that we already have some categories of troll and ent. What would happen to these? I'm guessing that troll, ent or eagle heroes wouldn't go into the creature category then.

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #14 am: 14. Nov 2016, 21:37 »
Just bear in mind that we already have some categories of troll and ent. What would happen to these? I'm guessing that troll, ent or eagle heroes wouldn't go into the creature category then.

I would argue that the troll and ent categories are still valid as specifications of the type of creature.  I think of the "Ent" and "Troll" categories as being sub-categories of "Creatures".  Each of those two categories has more than just a few units and therefore the existence of their categories is justified for me. 

As for troll, ent, and eagle heroes, I still think they should go in the "Creature" category because that is their "race" so to say.  Boromir is labelled "Men", Legolas "Elves", so I don't see why not.