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Autor Thema: Unit and Hero Categories  (Gelesen 3360 mal)

Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #30 am: 7. Dez 2016, 12:26 »
I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #31 am: 7. Dez 2016, 13:37 »
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

All heroic units in the mod have at least one active ability too

Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #32 am: 8. Dez 2016, 17:11 »
I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

On the contrary, Grond has many abilities, there are just not shown in the Palantír. Let me make a comparison to a regular battering ram: Grond deals massively more damage, Grond defends itself with the archers on top (and crushes enemies?), Grond can attack walls, and Grond has the amount of health that makes him withstand heavy fire for a long time. No other siege weapon is so versatile and destructive as Grond, justifying his Hero classification.
This description should be made into a passive ability taking up a Palantír slot in order to make the information more available in-game too, but this is more of a suggestion.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #33 am: 8. Dez 2016, 17:30 »
I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons
Actually I've never thought about that but now seeing your arguments it seems logical to have Grond as a hero although all heroes in the Mod have at least one active ability so he technically doesn't count as a hero.

On the contrary, Grond has many abilities, there are just not shown in the Palantír. Let me make a comparison to a regular battering ram: Grond deals massively more damage, Grond defends itself with the archers on top (and crushes enemies?), Grond can attack walls, and Grond has the amount of health that makes him withstand heavy fire for a long time. No other siege weapon is so versatile and destructive as Grond, justifying his Hero classification.
This description should be made into a passive ability taking up a Palantír slot in order to make the information more available in-game too, but this is more of a suggestion.
Good points! Actually I agree categorising it as a hero. Grond will be an extraordinary hero comparing to others in this category but yeah, I think it deserves the hero role.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #34 am: 8. Dez 2016, 17:46 »
Indeed, some very good arguments across the board. Garlodur has presented us with many valid arguments. I support his decision to make Grond a hero, it will require a bit of restructuration but should be easy to do.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #35 am: 10. Dez 2016, 22:28 »
Thanks for the support!

Next up, the hero categories. I feel that in general they are quite correct, but I would like to change the premises for how they are organised. The biggest problem I have is that some hero roles are defined by a single ability only, disregarding the general feel of said hero.

Example: Elrond is quite a versatile hero, having the leadership over the Imladris faction. But his categorisation of Hero Supporter only is incorrect. I understand his Restoration ability is iconic and very powerful, but his Mass Slayer abilties (Rage of the Loudwater, Vilya's Wrath mainly, Mount that tramples, passive with area-of-effect damage) are negelcted in this role.

I understand The_Necromancer0 copied the roles given by ET, but some of their concepts have changed into other directions sometimes, thus favouring a recategorisation.

What are your thoughts on this hero and do you have other striking examples of misfits?

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #36 am: 11. Dez 2016, 06:01 »
I think proceeding the same we we already have is the best way to go along this, the heroes because their role is up to interpretation are not as consistent as the units. The best way to do this I suggest is to stick one or two roles maximum per heroes, (except for Sauron who thanks to his forms can fill out several roles.) I've posted the list of heroes below to be edited later, if anybody wants to start this go right on ahead.


EDIT: I'll also be patching the units with the categories we have discussed.
« Letzte Änderung: 11. Dez 2016, 14:08 von The_Necromancer0 »
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #37 am: 23. Dez 2016, 02:24 »
All right, here we go.

I limited most hero categorisations to the maximum of two roles which are most characteristic of each hero. I prefer including whether the secondary role a hero has is important to mention, but not present in the core concept. However, exceptions need to be made and sometimes roles change when the hero gains the Ring, I will indicate this accordingly.




NOTES: I used the Monster Killer category once, for Bard, which obviously fits within Hero Killer category but I feel this distinction must be made explicit in some way.

On Special Unit Supporter
The hero has leadership abilities that do not function indiscriminately for all friendly units, but rather units of a specific type only (Thranduil supports Mirkwood-units, Brand supports Dale-units). This should not be a separate category but I believe it should be made more explicit that some leadership abilities are limited in effect to certain units.

On scouts
The scouts, or early game hero as envisioned by the Edain Team, differ a bit amongst themselves in terms of usefulness, but they are usely an cheap version of an All-Rounder

On Hero Interferers
Heroes like Grima, Shelob, Sharku, and Tauriel are not strong enough to deal with heroes on their own, but they have their ways of temporarily reducing their strenght. Therefore I want to propose a new category: Hero Interferer.
EDIT: I found the page that corresponds to this category, so there's no need to create a new one. It seems though that it's not properly hotlinked, and as such does not appear in the Categories tab at the top of the page. http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Hero_Interferer
« Letzte Änderung: 2. Jan 2017, 00:01 von Garlodur »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #38 am: 17. Jan 2017, 23:26 »
I finally had the time to look at everything and get back to you, sorry for the delay .I've had a look at your work and pretty much all of it seems on point. There are only a couple one I disagree one:
Aragorn - Hero Killer
Apart from athelas none of Aragorn's ability are meant for hero support. I think he should be only a Hero Killer.

I don't have anything to say about Arwen, she literally has one ability for each role, so I guess we'll just leave her as Hero Supporter.

For the Dark Marshal and Shadow Lord I would keep them solely as Unit Interferer. There Ring Hunter form is not nearly as important to be considered a vital part of their role.

Denethor - Unit Support
His only ability that affects building disables it for a couple seconds. I wouldn't consider it as support.

Faramir - (Special) Unit Supporter

Great Goblin - I'll just leave that one be for now, we don't know enough. It was showcased but it might have changed since then.

Malbeth - Hero Supporter

Mornamarth - Unit Supporter

Sauron is an exceptional case, his many forms (7 total) cover every role fully, so definitely on All Rouder categorization.

Everything else looks good. Also, fixed the hotlink. The menu had grown too big so I redid the menu, now you can see it all.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #39 am: 17. Feb 2017, 12:52 »
Hi Necro,

I wanted to make a small correction to Uglúk's categorisation. It seems many people classify him as Isengard's tank hero. Not playing Isengard so often I had not realised how tanky he indeed was, so I wanted to adjust his role.

Ugluk - Tank and Special Unit Supporter with Hero Interferer aspect

And also Mauhur's categorisation should be dealt with

Mauhur - Scout and Hero Killer

There, it should be good now. Keep up the good work.  ;)

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #40 am: 17. Feb 2017, 16:03 »
In that case, unless anybody else has anything else to say I'll do this over the week-end when I have some time.
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