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Autor Thema: Unit and Hero Categories  (Gelesen 3861 mal)

Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #15 am: 15. Nov 2016, 19:43 »
Just bear in mind that we already have some categories of troll and ent. What would happen to these? I'm guessing that troll, ent or eagle heroes wouldn't go into the creature category then.

I would argue that the troll and ent categories are still valid as specifications of the type of creature.  I think of the "Ent" and "Troll" categories as being sub-categories of "Creatures".  Each of those two categories has more than just a few units and therefore the existence of their categories is justified for me. 

As for troll, ent, and eagle heroes, I still think they should go in the "Creature" category because that is their "race" so to say.  Boromir is labelled "Men", Legolas "Elves", so I don't see why not.
Disagree: Imagine the "Troll" category would have only 3 units: Attack Troll, Drummer Troll and Mollok.
The same goes with ents: Treebeard, Quickbeam, Ent, and Ash Ent. Not even talk about eagles which would contain only 2 entries: Gwaihir and Eagle.

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #16 am: 15. Nov 2016, 20:38 »
The Troll category actually has 8 pages in it, and there could be more to come with the Misty Mountains faction.  It is true that the Ent category only has 4 pages in it, but I think that 4 is enough to justify its own category.  As for an eagle category, we don't have one and I wouldn't suggest it since there are only 2 pages to go there.  This is where the generic creature category would cover them.  The generic creature category would cover the trolls and ents too, but since there are more than just one or two pages for those, they also get their own category.  Maybe I'm not explaining myself well, I'm sorry. 

Or, if there is no agreement, we could just scrap the troll and ent categories and let them all just be creatures without also giving them more specific categories.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #17 am: 15. Nov 2016, 21:18 »
The Troll category actually has 8 pages in it, and there could be more to come with the Misty Mountains faction.
Indeed, sorry about that I didn't notice. You're right: there probably be more pages in Troll category when the Misty mountains come out. I'm for the Creature category to replace Monster.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #18 am: 21. Nov 2016, 15:14 »
This is a tricky issue, after much pondering I give my support to using the "Single" category and removing the "Monster/Creature" category. Then we can add a category to every unit that categorises as a Monster or Creature based on its race (Troll, Ent, Eagle, ect...)

I think the best way to go through this is to go through the factions units by units, later tonight I will post a complete list of all the units (if possible split up by factions) and then Garlodur, if you want, you can just takes chunks out of this list and categorize them, if not I'll do it but I'm a bit short on time at the moment. Once that is done we'll discuss each chunks individually until we reach some sort of agreement, then I'll use the bot fix all the categories and it should be all good. How does that sound?

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Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #19 am: 21. Nov 2016, 17:39 »
This is a tricky issue, after much pondering I give my support to using the "Single" category and removing the "Monster/Creature" category. Then we can add a category to every unit that categorises as a Monster or Creature based on its race (Troll, Ent, Eagle, ect...)

I think the best way to go through this is to go through the factions units by units, later tonight I will post a complete list of all the units (if possible split up by factions) and then Garlodur, if you want, you can just takes chunks out of this list and categorize them, if not I'll do it but I'm a bit short on time at the moment. Once that is done we'll discuss each chunks individually until we reach some sort of agreement, then I'll use the bot fix all the categories and it should be all good. How does that sound?
Good.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #20 am: 21. Nov 2016, 19:07 »
Those are all the units there are, I'll add the categories as we agree on them so anybody wishing to participate can immediately catch up to where we are or discuss any of the chosen categories.

A
B

C

D

E
F
Farmhands - Pikemen

G

H

I

K
Knights of Dol Amroth - Heroic, Cavalry

L

M

O

P

R

S

T
U

V
Veterans of Khazad Dum - Heroic, Swordsmen
Veterans of the Last Alliance - Heroic, Swordsmen

W

Y
Yeoman - Archer

Z
Zealots - Swordsmen
« Letzte Änderung: 11. Dez 2016, 05:55 von The_Necromancer0 »
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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #21 am: 24. Nov 2016, 18:00 »
Crazy week, I finally have second to myself though so I thought I'd take that time to start of the debate with the letters A & B, here is my insight on the categories for units starting with the letters A & B:

Ambassadors from the Ringlo Vale - Swordsmen
Angmar Tribute - Support
Archers from Morthond - Archer
Arkenguard - Swordsmen, Elite
Army of the Dead - Elite, Swordsmen
Arnor Archers - Archer
Arnor Knights - Cavalry
Axe Fighters from Lossarnach - Swordsmen
Axe Throwers - Archer

Battering Ram- Siege
Battlewagon - Cavalry
Beorning - Elite, Cavalry, Swordsmen
Black Knights - Heroic, Cavalry
Black Riders - Heroic, Cavalry, Swordsmen
Black Uruk Archers - Heroic, Archer
Black Uruk-Hais - Heroic, Swordsmen
Blade Masters of Rivendell - Elite, Swordsmen
Bone Crushers - Elite, Swordsmen

The only one I'm not sure about is the army of the dead, I'm not sure what they would be classified as. So if anybody has any other opinion about any of these units make sure to mention it. Our goal by the end of this is to have a consistent category system with only a few exceptions.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #22 am: 26. Nov 2016, 23:01 »
Let me do C till the end then:


The most important issue with the Single category is that units that fall under it have different strenghts and weaknesses. This is why they do not easily fall under the Swordsmen/Cavalry etc. classification as their mechanics take a bend slightly outside the rock-paper-scissors system that ET holds. For example, Battlewagons miss the strength of real cavalry against buildings, but have extra support functions; similar issue with Beorning who transgresses categories. I believe this is the essence of Single units: an individual unit that does more or less what a combination of several categories describes. This is not the same as hybrid units like Galadhrim or Guardians of the Citadel, who have strengths depending on the situation. For indication purposes I have added in brackets the most fitting secondary categorisation for Single units.
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Nov 2016, 23:05 von Garlodur »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #23 am: 28. Nov 2016, 12:02 »
Very impressive work, I didn't expect all to be done so quickly, allow me to feedback on it all, since you've done it all I will merely mention the one I disagree with, I also encourage anyone who stumbles on this post to comment their thoughts on the way the units have been categorised.


Everything sounds pretty good and unless anybody has anything else to say about them I'll add them to the list and we can debate those last few.
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Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #24 am: 30. Nov 2016, 21:55 »
Thank you for your response. In fact, it didn't take me much time. It's all in my head  :o

I agree with your decision to take out the hybrid categories. I myself did not know so well what to do with them. They do not deserve their own category but otherwise it needs to be made very clear that these units wield different weapons.

I do have some comments, however, about other things


I am glad we agree at other points, it makes this process very transparent. Nevertheless, if someone has questions regarding the classification, I am happy to explain the premises I held.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #25 am: 1. Dez 2016, 12:49 »
This process is moving quickly along the way, not much left to do. I agree with the siege things, after a bit of thinking it makes sense for siege to be unclassifiable since most late game siege is more unique rather than stronger, apart from the Troll Catapult, but that's the only case. So agree on keeping it just siege and on most of the other points. Only two point remain on which I disagree:

Gondor Knights - Elite, Cavalry
So, I decided the best way to settle this was to look at the number and you're right, they are as strong as the Meduseld Cavalry summoned by Rohan Captains. So, definitely agree on their Elite classification here.

Grond - Siege, Heroic
Uhm...That's a good question. Let me think about it a bit more, also if anybody has thoughts on the matter make sure to write them down, I'm not sure about this one.

Also, I've updated my original post with all the categories we've agreed on, but anybody is free to debate them if they wish.
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Gandalf7000

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #26 am: 1. Dez 2016, 16:27 »
Grond should definetly be heroic (well you can make on;y one Grond per game).

OakenShield224

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #27 am: 1. Dez 2016, 17:38 »
Grond should definetly be heroic (well you can make on;y one Grond per game).
Agree.

Garlodur

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #28 am: 6. Dez 2016, 21:44 »
I am very nitpicky about the categorisation of units in this case.

The thing with Grond is that it does not follow the premises of a heroic unit, who always come in battalions of five and with a build limit of three (with the exception of Boromir's Guardians of the White City, of whom you can have 9). Furthermore, I agree that like heroic units Grond is harder to obtain due to restrictions in the early and middle game. As such he appears in late game exclusively.

I would actually argue to make Grond a Hero for a few reasons: you can make only one , it gets own selection icon at the bottom of the UI, and it deals incredible damage for the long time it takes to take it down. On top of that, he has a name and a unique place in the tales of Middle-Earth, allegedly being the same Hammer of the Underworld Morgoth held and what not.

If people say he does not belong to the Hero category, I would say to look at heroes like Treebeard, Quickbeam, or summoned heroes (Eagles, Tom Bombadil, Rogash), none of whom have a full palantír of abilities but have significant strengths of their own. Grond is one of such heroes, less traditional but more unique than standard heroes.

Trondheim9

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Re: Unit and Hero Categories
« Antwort #29 am: 6. Dez 2016, 23:39 »
I wasn't sure what to think about the topic of Grond, but I think Garlodur makes some good arguments and therefore I would support Grond being a Hero too.  It may not be like conventional heroes, but in my opinion it fits the hero category better than the heroic category. 

 
On top of that, he has a name and a unique place in the tales of Middle-Earth, allegedly being the same Hammer of the Underworld Morgoth held and what not.

(it was only named after Morgoth's Hammer, but I think the point you made is still valid.)