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I'm not the best player myself (and more of an offline one than an online one), but I'd like to state my opinion on the snowballing  and comebacks issue, which I think I've seen a bit. I agree with what has been said, and in my opinion comebacks are very difficult to make because once a player controls the whole map, he has the most resources and henceforth, he will have the superior army and more capabilities to stop the efforts of the defender to come back, so all that is left is waiting until the attacker has enough troops to destroy the defender because there's no advantage for the defender to try to attack the enemy (as the enemy will have a bigger army to stop the harassing), and staying in the fort isn't helpful either because the enemy will continue to get a bigger army. Spellbook powers, as has been said, should help in this, but they are usually not strong enough to help make a comeback, and work more when the state of the game is more balanced and not in the later stages.

Another problem (that will probably be fixed in 4.5, I suppose) is the strength of towers in 4.4.1 (I haven't got enough experience with the megafix, but they seemed to be quite weaker and nicer to bear with there). While in theory the OPness of towers is amazing for the defender, when the stage of one player controlling the map and the other being almost defeated is reached, towers in their current state can unnecessarily make the length of the game longer, when there's no comeback possible because of snowballing and one player controlling all of the resources.

I hope that with the changes already stated to be in 4.5 to sieging, spellbook or economy buildings, it will be easier to make a comeback and such, make the later stages of the game, sieging and snowballing, less of an issue, and specially making sieging more fun and comebacks possible.

The tower thing is less related to it, but I think it is sort of, in the sense that, at that stage of the game, both a possible comeback and not taking thirty minutes to finish off a mostly defeated enemy should be possible.

So, in conclusion, I think there are two big problems: the snowballing and impossibility for the defender to come back once the other player controls the map, and the slog that sieging can suppose sometimes, that leads to snowballing as the attacking player would want to be sure to be able to get through the siege quickly. Sure, towers could defeat the armies, but the map control would give the attacker so many resources that, if he just escapes with at least one soldier of his battalions alive and keep the heroes alive aswell, they lost nothing but time. Finding a solution to this would not only help improving the siege in multiplayer, but also the game experience in general.

I hope I made sense, as I'm not exactly an expert on multiplayer, but I thought I could state my opinion on this and add a bit to it :P
RPG Library / Re: Varda
« Letzter Beitrag von Walküre am Gestern um 18:10 »

Thee supreme we hail,
Thee shall we ever honour and never wail,
Thee we hold in our heart,
Thee invoke we when we are to part.

Thou, never leave thy loyal servants alone,
Thou, do not let the beggar weep or moan,
Thou, shield the right and drive shadows away,
Thou, bless us and soothe the hardest day.
RPG Library / Re: Antique Lyrics of Arda
« Letzter Beitrag von Walküre am Gestern um 18:07 »

The day shall come, my Queen,
An ultimate spark of bliss will mortals have seen,
Upon a star-white steed,
Her immaculate way will she lead.

Afar, her as a bright rider lesser ones shall perhaps disguise,
The mightiest lady of this age, pure beyond measure and wise,
Her hour is coming, soon,
To bid farewell to these shores and her last worldly moon.
RPG Library / Re: Dismay and Sorrow
« Letzter Beitrag von Walküre am Gestern um 18:04 »

The passage is shut,
So say folks, and the road likewise cut,
Once a wealthy shire,
Kept by stone and the resilient sire.

Amassed in such maze of halls,
Within fortresses and thick walls,
There lay the treasure of Dwarf-kings,
The jester recalls the tale and justly sings.

Of the ill befallen,
Torn tapestry, sewn and woollen,
Scarce would it avail your quest,
The adventure inside this gloomy web, as much perilous test.

What dwells within ought not to be woken,
Forswear your will and leave the mines, cursed and broken,
Should fire creep out from the abyss of the world,
Shields would serve nought and equally one's sharp sword.
[Edain] Bug-Meldungen / Re: Bugs bei Angmar
« Letzter Beitrag von Singollo am Gestern um 17:54 »
Die Wiederaufbaukosten von Vorpostenzitadellen belaufen sich auf 1600.
Sport / Re: WM-Allgemein
« Letzter Beitrag von Shagrat am Gestern um 13:57 »
*Staub wegpust*

Ich glaub, so langsam kann der Thread wiederbelebt werden, oder? :D
I posted already a reply in the internal forums, but since we decided to discuss it publicly, here is the copy of what I have written:

Very nice analysis, it basically sums up the sieging-problem in competitive environment.

Before I give my opinion on sieges, some things about the snowballing you adress.

Snowballing as you say exists in every rts game, however there are some points, that make it exponentially stronger in Edain:
1) Hero levels:
If you manage to level up your heroes and your opponent doesn't, it is almost irrelevant what he does and how well he microes, as long as you keep them protected and don't completely brainfreeze.

2) The battalion mechanic:
As long as at least one soldier in one battalion survives you lose nothing.

3) Leveling mechanic of units:
In Edain, you almost always either completely crush your enemy in a fight or get completely beaten up. Anything inbetween almost never happens.
The consequense is, that while you keep every unit of which atleast one soldier survives + you keep the gained levels of you crushing that fight, your opponent does not only lose his units, which is bad enough, but even made you stronger through it.

Combined with the fact, that spellbook spells have been massively nerfed (and either require a big army in support, or just damage units/leave single soldiers alive) the snowball keeps rolling like an avelance, getting bigger and bigger.


I have mentioned it countless times already, but imo the burden of winning lies on the defender, not on the attacker. The defender has to win through skill and not through artificial punishments on the attacker.
I agree however, that this is much more difficult to accomplish than in any other rts (starcraft for example), because of the humongous snowballing in Edain.

I always repeat myself, but bfme has given us the best comeback mechanics aleady: the spellbook.
But instead of allowing it to stand on its own, like in bfme1 and 2, the strength of spellbook spells in edain is proportional to the army supporting it, which is not necessarily bad, but makes comeback via spellbook very hard to achieve.
This means, that spells mostly benefit the snowballing player. (of course that is not the case with every spell, but that is the general direction they are going).

If we  try to give the defender some kind of artificial advantage by all available means (be it stronger defenses, more economy etc.) there are only two outcomes possible imo:
It will either not award the winner of the fight for mapcontrol, or just make sieges infinitely long and boring.

So how would I personally solve that situation?

I think first of all we have to put the very specific problem of sieging aside and adress the general possibility of comebacks, exacly as Goodfella states. If we manage to reduce snowballing to an equal level as in most other rts games (sc for example), it would be a big step in the right direction already.
If however we only focus on "sieging" and ignore the basic mechanics that lead to the problem, it will risk infinite sieges or the unimportance of the battle for mapcontrol.

After talking with Goodfella yesterday about this whole problem, I would agree, that introducing an active mechanic, that makes the attacker want to attack the base now and not sitting around and snowball out of control would be nice and at the same time still requires the defender to use it properly for it to help him (comeback through skill and not through sitting around and getting buffed up).

Mainly however, before anything else gets discussed, those conservative changes must be taken. That is the most important point in my eyes!
He must have surely noticed that, being him a Balance Tester. I'm quite certain about it ;)

I think the topic of the thread aims to gather additional feedback even from the public boards of the forum. Balance is usually deemed the toughest aspect to tackle in the management of a Mod; in this case, the issue really deals with so many different themes and it's commonly believed that balance itself seldom provides definitive answers. Hence, further debating on the matter is always more than welcome, whether siege is overhauled or not.

In my personal opinion, pre-determined games have become a recurrent and quite persistent woe of the Edain Mod. The cause of most of the concern in the community. I really hope that people will understand and get acquainted with the rationale of the forthcoming update.
I think you'll be glad to hear (if you haven't already) that the next update (4.5) focuses specifically on this issue!
Imladris / Re: Elronds Haus
« Letzter Beitrag von Melkor. am Gestern um 00:46 »
Ardóneths Gruppe aus den Trollhöhen

Nach einer langen Reise erreichte die Gruppe Ardóneths endlich wieder Imladris. Trotz des eigentlichen Misserfolgs seiner Mission freute sich Ardan in Bruchtal angekommen zu sein, Cairien und Maraniel wieder zu sehen, doch bevor er seine Liebsten aufsuchen konnte, musste er erst mit dem Herren von Bruchtal darüber sprechen. Zusammen mit Canotar und Lovarie erzählte Ardóneth was sie beobachten konnten:" Saruman zieht Truppen in den Trollhöhen zusammen. Wir müssen wachsam bleiben" sprach Lovarie. Canotar nickte "Wir wissen jedoch nicht welchen zu welchem Zweck." warf er abschließend ein. "Ich werde meine Gruppe zurück nach Fornost schicken, im Falle eines weiteren Angriffes muss die Stadt vorbereitet sein. " Zu dritt fassten sie den Ablauf der Mission zusammen.
 Nachdem die oberste Kundschafter und der "Alte Weise" in ihre Quartiere gegangen waren, lief Ardóneth zum Haus in dem seine neue Familie wohnte, er spürte wie er immer schneller wurde umso näher er kam. Nachdem er das Haus betreten hatte rannte ihm Cairien entgegen. "Ardan, du bist wieder zurück." sagte sie und küsste ihn zärtlich. " Dieser erwiderte den Kuss. "Wir haben übrigens Besuch." flüsterte Cairien. Ardóneth konnte nun am Tisch eine junge schwarzhaarige Frau erkennen, die ein kleines Brötchen in kleine Stücken zerriss und aß. " Wer seid ihr?" fragte Ardan schließlich als er langsam zum Tisch lief. Ein ungewöhnliches, misstrauisches Gefühl kam in ihm auf, als er das Gesicht der Person erkannte;  Das Gesicht war von einer jungen hübschen Dunedan, sie hatte ebenso wie er tiefblaue Augen und eine kleine Stupsnase, es war ein vertrautes  Gesicht für Ardóneth was das Gefühl nicht gerade besser machte.
"Ich bitte um deine Hilfe. Mein Vater sandte mich, um dich zu finden um das Erbe unserer Familie zu retten." sprach sie. "Unserer Familie?" fragte Ardóneth, er hoffte inständig sich verhört zu haben.  "Mein Name ist Areneth, ich bin deine kleine Schwester Ardóneth." sagte sie. Dem Dunedan blieb förmlich die Luft aus, fragend blickte er zu Cairien die, dem Gespräch stillschweigend lauschte aber nur mit den Schultern zucken konnte. Langsam saß er sich auf einen Stuhl den Cairien ihm schnell gebracht hatte. "Welches Erbe sollt ihr, ähm sollst du retten?" fragte er, sein Gesicht nahm nun langsam wieder eine gesunde, normale Farbe an, das Misstrauen hingegen wuchs weiter. " Einen verschollen geglaubten Schlüssel."
Ardóneth konnte sich fast denken was seine "Schwester" meinen konnte, dennoch hatte bereits Malborn ihn vor Betrügern gewarnt die versuchten etwas über Gilgroth für ihre Meister in Erfahrung zu bringen.  Schließlich hörte er dutzende Legenden über dass, was die Tírns mit ihrem Leben beschützten. Ein Setzling des weißen Baumes, der Schlüssel von Elendils Palast in Annúminas und sogar einer der Palantiri sollten in der Sternengrotte versteckt worden sein. "Wenn ihr wirklich meine Schwester sein solltet, wie hieß unsere Mutter?" der Dúnedan bohrte nun. "Meine Mutter hieß Beleriel, sie starb jedoch als ich drei Jahre alt war. " Ardóneth nickte kaum sichtlich. "Wieso sollte ich dir Glauben schenken?"  Areneth packte ein in groben Stoff eingewickeltes Amulett aus ihrer Tasche. Es war einer der 4 Schlüssel für die Geheime Tür Gilgroths. "Mein Vater gab das Amulett mit, da er wusste das du mir misstrauen würdest. Er und Gilbárd haben Erfahren wo sich Górlad aufhalten soll und du sollst mir bei meiner Suche helfen..." erklärte sie während sie das Amulett wieder einpackte. "Wieso hat unser Vater mir nie davon erzählt?" fragte er obwohl er keine Antwort erwartete. "Wohin müssen wir?"  Areneth erhob sich von ihrem Stuhl und ging zur Kommode die vor einem der wenigen Fenster stand und holte zwei gepackte Rucksäcke aus den Schubladen. "Nach Minas Tirith, in unser altes Haus..."

Ardóneth und Areneth nach Anorien
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