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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Imladris Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 22:27

Titel: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 22:27
This thread is primarily about Elrond and his skills.

Firstly  - Elrond's role. I always thought that he is strong hero supporter and secondarily unit supporter + ring hero. His abilities don't correspond with mass slayer role, such role have for instance Smaug as a big creature, Mollock as a terrible monster or Gandalf as a powerful wizard. So generally we can say that Elrond is hero supporter.

Elrond's abilities:

1) Loud waters fury
Elrond as a lore master from Imladris has river Bruinen under his control. When he becomes more wiser, his power over river is getting stronger.
So on level 1 water blast in targeting area with one horse, on level 3 two horses, on level 5 three horses, on level 7 four horses and finally on level 10 five water horses.
Spell deals more and more damage and for still larger and larger area, but it isn't so strong like ultimate spell from spellbook - there are seven horses and large area.
If isn't technically possible work with "horses" in this skill, so there can be firstly only water blast and for instance from level 5 his normal spell (there are two horses permanently I think), but logically effect (damage etc.) should be stronger as well.


3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
Iconinc ability from previous version

5) Armour of high elves
Elrond is able to see into the future and reveal the impending danger. He wears the armour of the high elves, which inspires elves on the battlefield, and leads them in order to prevent the future events.
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
I think that he had or will have 25 % armour for him, 25 % faster experience and armour for units or something like that

7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
We know that he is able ride a horse quite a long time, since days of Arnor ...


and in the first Hobbit movie we can see him as a leader of Imladris cavalry:


... also it fits into the faction, Imladris will have melee cavalry and only Glorfindel and Arwen are able to ride.
Don't forget that Imladris will be the second "most cavalry faction" in the game and only two heroes there are able to ride a horse?
By the way - he is able to cast "horses" and he isn't able to ride on normal horse?


10) Vilya's restoration
Elrond is greatest healer and his abilities are supported by ring of preservation. Power of the elven ring helps Elrond to completely heal nearby allies and refresh ability timer of friendly heroes
Just look at it more closely:


- Bearer of Narya is Cirdan for Edain universe, because Gandalf is mass slayer and his abilities are sufficient and come from vanilla game. Ring of fire supports friendly units (their attack and armor) which is lore accurate. Cirdan has such spell on first level.
- Galadriel wears ring of water - Nenya on level 10, which protects her realm (heroes, units, buildings in wide area are protected and invulnerable). Again - very lore accurate matter.
- Vilya, ring of air, is in Imladris. Elrond in former version on level 10 is able to summon tornado for some time and that's a problem ... because we know, that elven rings of power aren't for battle purposes but only for preservation/protection. 
I feel that it isn't suitable and lore accurate (in comparison to Nenya or Narya which have brilliant implementations in the mod) and mainly - I think that his role is (or will be) very useful hero supporter, but destructive whirlwind doesn't correspond with his role.
So new ability could be effect of the Elven ring, mass heal and recovering of abilities for heroes, because it's mighty ability and Elrond isn't powerful sorcerer, so in that case his healing skills are supported by the Elven ring.


So overall effects for three Elven rings of power will be following:


Concerning design:

First four levels Elrond has bathrobe ... but Elrond is known for his love to armour:


So since level 5 armour from the first Hobbit movie: 


.... and on level ten his DG armour.


I suppose that everyone likes Elrond with his golden armor from Dol Guldur, which is more elegant than his Last aliance armor. I thought that he can have golden armor on level 10 with some resistance against magic (because it seems that he is quite immune against ringwraiths attack or presense of sauron, but it's only speculation).


Generally his last alliance armour should be for Arnor and he should be included in Last Alliance spell there.

Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and guy with many armours
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 13. Jul 2015, 22:42
Personally I see no problem with Elrond's tornado. Elrond's role as a helper to others is fulfilled with his "Refresh" ability, which allows an allied hero to instantly use their abilities again.  I would argue that Refresh is Elrond's other iconic ability.  The tornado is a useful ability which should not be removed.

About Elrond's armor, I think the team needs to decide whether Elrond has his Brown and Silver armor OR his Golden armor, not both.  Personally, I would prefer the Brown and Silver armor, because the Dol Guldur armor looks more similar to his Last Alliance armor.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 13. Jul 2015, 22:45
Well, we cant give Elrond a third armour, this would be definitly to much. I think it fits perfectly, that he wear his brown-silver armor at Level 5. Additionally, i dont have any motivation longer to create a third design for Elrond. [ugly]
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 13. Jul 2015, 22:55
Nenya cann't protect the people of Lorien, they win the battle towards Dol Guldor by experienced warriors and sophisticated weaponry. The use of Nenya is to resist the poison and corruption on the woodland from Dol Guldor, thus preserving the living space for Galadrim. In my opinions, Galadriel's power related to Nenya shouldn't be anything directly related to battle. It could heal the friendly units, summon fog to retard enemy's movement, provide resistance to poison or give some bonus to Malorn Tree, something like that.

One of my thought, is make Galadriel's Nenya related her level, as she levels up to lv 3,5 ,7,10, the Malorn Trees(main economic building) will be gradually enhanced in production and protection.
And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jul 2015, 22:57
I think I can post again here the proposal I made on the EIC once :)




Galadriel wears ring of water - Nenya on level 10, which protects her realm (heroes, units, buildings in wide area are protected and invulnerable). Again - very lore accurate matter.


I think it would be crucial, to be more in line with the lore and to avoid possible OP and balance problems, if Galadriel protected with Nenya only the structures of Lothlórien, excluding thus your allies' ones and even your own Mirkwood settlement.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 22:58
Additionally, i dont have any motivation longer to create a third design for Elrond. [ugly]
Ea I expected such argument ... xD ... and I think that it's little bit irrelevant, because you (team) already had full strength to rework Imladris warriors, how many times, thrice? :P

Maybe it will be sufficient rework his last alliance armor (because definitely there is inspiration from movie makers) in order to look like armor from DG. Elrond really deserve some "costume attention" - in the movie he had three versions of armour and ... at least seven bathrobes. :o

Edit: By the way - minor detail, it seems that Elrond model is without headband:

And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?
Just check his first spell  ;)
And concerning Nenya or Galadriel - during next days I will create special thread for this, this thread is about Elven rings in general and focuses on Elrond's tornado or armour. :P
So hold the topic otherwise our thread will be locked. :D
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jul 2015, 23:45
Nenya cann't protect the people of Lorien, they win the battle towards Dol Guldor by experienced warriors and sophisticated weaponry. The use of Nenya is to resist the poison and corruption on the woodland from Dol Guldor, thus preserving the living space for Galadrim. In my opinions, Galadriel's power related to Nenya shouldn't be anything directly related to battle. It could heal the friendly units, summon fog to retard enemy's movement, provide resistance to poison or give some bonus to Malorn Tree, something like that.

One of my thought, is make Galadriel's Nenya related her level, as she levels up to lv 3,5 ,7,10, the Malorn Trees(main economic building) will be gradually enhanced in production and protection.
And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?

I think we can continue here our little 'discussion' about Nenya and Galadriel, ziqing  :)

I think I have written a ton of posts about this topic, but it is really a great topic  8-)

I recognise the strength and power of Celeborn and the Galadhrim, and they were surely essential in the protection of Lothlórien.
BUT, Tolkien often and clearly stated many times that the bliss of Lothlórien and its safety depend primarily on Galadriel.

- She is a 8000+/20000 year-old Noldorin Princess from Valinor, born before the Sun and the Moon in the Years of the Trees, who has seen the Holy and Eternal Light of the Trees (something that Celeborn and the Guardian of the Grey Havens haven't, being born in Beleriand) and captured that light in her hair.
Tolkien once said that she is the greatest of the Noldor, comparing her to her uncle.

- Nenya is 'just' a powerful tool for her, that enhances her powers and allows her to slow and stop the flow of Time and the ineluctable decay of the World.
Her magical powers are far greater, and come from the Ancient Times of the Years of the Trees in Valinor; her powers are thus mixed with the powers of Nenya, a mighty mix that makes her one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth, someone that Sauron could have never defeated without the One Ring.

- In the dark and disenchanted Third Age, an Age dominated by Men, she appears to be more as a goddess, almost as a Maia, who is part of the legend, in the eyes of simple Humans and rustic Wood Elves (Mirkwood), as Legolas says, full of wonder, about the Golden Wood.

- You can't refer to Lothlórien, talking about its military power, leadership and defence, as if you were referring to the Kingdoms of Men, that obviously rely more on the their military strength and the value of their soldiers.
These elements are obviously present in the Golden Wood, but you have to consider that Lothlórien is a magical and enchanted place (one of the few ones in the Third Age), like Mordor, Rivendell, Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul; and Tolkien clearly states that these types of places are so dangerous or blissful because they are corrupted or blessed by Evil or Good Magic, and Magic always emanates from a powerful good or evil magical being, in these cases (in order) Galadriel, Sauron, Elrond and the Witch-king.

Not only does Galadriel make the Golden Wood a timeless and holy sanctuary, but she also protects it with its powers.
Galadriel is the SOURCE of all the Joy, Bliss, Timeless Atmosphere and Safety of Lothlórien, and when she leaves, after the War of the Ring, the Golden Wood gradually gets darkened and decays, to the point that, when Arwen goes there to die, it is totally unrecognisable.
Galadriel is also naturally recognised and acknowledged as a true leader and guardian by her People; a Light that always fights the Darkness.
This is what Haldir tells the Fellowship when it enters Lothlórien.


Probably the 'sophisticated weaponry' you are referring to is this  :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 13. Jul 2015, 23:50
Zitat
Ea I expected such argument ... xD ... and I think that it's little bit irrelevant, because you (team) already had full strength to rework Imladris warriors, how many times, thrice? :P
Got me!  :D
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 23:54
I think we can continue here our little 'discussion' about Nenya and Galadriel, ziqing  :)
These walls of texts definitely aren't little discussion. :D :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 00:06
 Magic, the Three Rings and Lothlórien are pivotal themes in Tolkien's Universe.

And you know me, I can't contain myself when we talk about Galadriel  (**)


Galadriel is for me what the 'Iron Hills soldiers from BOTFA' concept is for LordDainIronfoot  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 14. Jul 2015, 00:08
I think it is a good idea to add Elrond's Last alliance armor to level 10. If I know the his last alliance armor is not used in new version. :(

edit: or maybe Elrond can have Last alliance armor or Guldur armor in Arnor. I had this idea long time ago for new ultimate spell:
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30925.0.html (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30925.0.html)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 14. Jul 2015, 00:31
Dear DieWalküre, I respect your opinions and understanding of Middle earth and all these figures in LOTR. I think it is just we have different interpretations of Tolkien's world, there is nothing in your reply that I haven't read before. I am well aware that Galadriel and her ring is the main reason that Lorien could maintain prosperity and stick near the evil power from Dol Guldor,unlike Mirkwood. That's why I suggest her power to be directly related to the building and economy of Lorien, that's the very foundation of the faction and key to victory. And I agree with every Hymn and praise you have mentioned for Galadriel.

Back to this topic, I hold my previous point because the battle in Middle earth is about swords and shields, when Sauron or even Morgoth want to kill someone, he'd better put on armors and find a menacing mace to smash his target, instead of casting a spell that make his target burning to death; My point is that there is rarely supernatural power involved directly in the battlefield. That means despite all the hymns and mysteries related to Galadriel, if she wants to kill an orc or armored troll, she could only use sword and spear, like her brothers and all other Noldor warriors, Maiar like or not, that doesn't make any difference in battlefield.

About the leader role, just tell me how many battles have Galadriel really experienced, according to the book, despite all the 8000+ years she walks on earth? I only remember two, I don't want to mention there is rarely no record about her during the brutal war in First age. There is rarely any record of her performance in the last alliance, when Gil-Galad died in the dual against Sauron, or any other great wars before the downfall of Dol Guldor, during which for once she overpowered Sauron, when the ring was already destroyed and Sauron already lost all his power, before that Lorien elves could only defend themselves in their own territory.

Once again I want to say I agree with all the praises and hymns you have mentioned and your affection for this character. But this "light queen against Sauron" thing is not well accepted by everyone.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 01:15

Dear ziqing, probably, with some differences, we are saying the same thing.
I never demanded (you can check all my posts out in this website) an OP concept of Galadriel, making her fight with both powerful spells and sword and armour (even if it were possible), because I am well aware that primarily there are crucial balance and gameplay issues, not to say that we are talking about a game set in the War of the Ring.

If you look at my old EIC proposal in my first comment of this thread, you will notice that it has its roots specifically on structures/defence/settlement of Lothlórien; the point is tying the last power of Galadriel (Nenya) also to the structures/settlement of the faction of Lothlórien (Tree House), not only to be more in line with the lore, but primarily to make you really 'feel' that Galadriel is the leader of the faction, she's a guardian and she's a very characteristic hero that can protect her settlement with her Magic, an innovative power that no hero has so far.
This 'tool' (magical protection of the settlement) was available in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1 only via an upgrade, but Galadriel, if the concept will be implemented, will be able to personally cast this spell/upgrade as a power of hers, as she will also personally give her Gifts to the heroes in the Edain Mod 4.0 (something that again was only available via the Spellbook as a power).
These are, in my point of view, significant things that define the essence of a hero in the Edain Mod and make you really 'feel' the character, just as the Witch-king is capable of using his mount or his burning sword, or Gandalf using his spells.
These elements were not so evident and present, speaking about her, and that's why she has been radically changed; and it was a decision of the Edain Team, not mine.
They also admitted that, to be the leader of her faction, was not fun nor enjoyable to play with, as if she didn't have a proper position/role to fit in.
I never really asked for a sword or an armour.

About the lore, those were not just hymns or praises of mine, but the very words of Tolkien, that often in the books (even in apparently-inappropriate parts) indicates and refers to Galadriel's might; I didn't make up anything.

Galadriel was not involved, in a relevant way, in battle until the Third Age, but we know precisely that, during her more-than-1000-year permanence in Aman, was personally taught by the Valar (why not also by Tulkas himself) and was, already there, as a young elf-maiden, recognised as the greatest elf-maiden of the Noldor, and named also Nerwen, for her incredible physical strength; and we also know that the standards of the definition of 'being powerful' at that time (Years of the Trees), among those Elves (Royal Family of the Noldor), were immensely higher that the ones of the Third Age.
Galadriel could fight with a sword and an armour in the Third Age, but she can easily avoid to do it, since she has immense magical powers.
Really, they are not hymns, they are solid lore facts and reasons that should help you to understand her real and deep essence and might in the Third Age, and there are many more facts that I could refer to.


Anyway, my proposal about Nenya doesn't directly deal with Galadriel's character in the First Age as a Warrior Princess; it would be interesting trying to recreate this concept, but it's not the main purpose of my idea.
WETA made a concept for her for BOTFA, and I think we could look at it as Galadriel in the First Age  :)

Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 14. Jul 2015, 01:21
So be it, "seeking common points while reserving difference".

Although I do hope her influence on building will be passive and automatic, just like Cirdan's on Lindon watchtower
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 01:29
So be it, "seeking common points while reserving difference".

Although I do hope her influence on building will be passive and automatic, just like Cirdan's on Lindon watchtower

In my proposal the concept is basically: once you have activated the power, all the units become temporarily invulnerable (just like in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1), but, this time, if she is next to your Lothlórien settlement, all the settlement will temporarily shine and become invulnerable to every type of attack (especially the ones of the siege machines) and spell.
This is what basically happened in the Edain Mod 3.8.1 when you activated the upgrade 'Schutzbann Caras Galadhons' (Defence of Caras Galadhon, in English); but, this time, Galadriel will personally cast it on units, heroes and settlement (if she is closed to it).
A power that can be used to attack, making your army invulnerable before an assault, or to defend yourself, protecting the settlement.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 14. Jul 2015, 01:45

In my proposal the concept is basically: once you have activated the power, all the units become temporarily invulnerable (just like in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1), but, this time, if she is next to your Lothlórien settlement, all the settlement will temporarily shine and become invulnerable to every type of attack (especially the ones of the siege machines) and spell.


I see this part in previous reply. I would rather with her leveling up, all Mallorn trees in the wild will be surrounded by densed fog which permanently reduce the damage from siege weapon and melee units, and also provide healing and defense bonus for nearby elves. I would rather her influence to be global, permanent and subtle.

I will keep reserved opinions in this "invulnerable power", this kind of power should correspond to some epic defense battle scene in the book, Hama earn it because of his valar in Helms Deep, King Dain because the bloody battle in Erebor against Easterlings, and Throin earns it for gods-know-what-reason(Azanulbizar?). Although there are also defense battle for Lorien during the war, it is not as tragic as those battles.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 15. Jul 2015, 16:22
i think it is better for elrond to start with his clothes and later at lvl 5 get the black armor then lvl 10 get the last alliance  and if you buff him with a forged armor he gets the golden armor with some new ult but not the tornado galadriel should have the tornado 
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 15. Jul 2015, 16:42
Why should he get three or four different outfits?  It doesn't really fit.  Just have Elrond have his brown-silver armor at level 5, and have his Last Alliance armor when he is summoned in the Last Alliance Spell.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 15. Jul 2015, 18:10
i think it is better for elrond to start with his clothes and later at lvl 5 get the black armor then lvl 10 get the last alliance  and if you buff him with a forged armor he gets the golden armor
Yes, that's my proposal, but on level 10 should be his Dol Guldur armour. I think that three outfits are quite sufficient and suitable for him. Either way it will be unique. You are talking about four variations and it's quite a lot. xD

with some new ult but not the tornado galadriel should have the tornado
Honestly, yes, Gladys has tornado (her dark/ring hero form) but Elrond has whirlwind, it isn't strong tornado, but either way, I feel that it isn't suitable and lore accurate (in comparison to Nenya or Narya which have brilliant implementations in the mod) and mainly - I think that his role is (or will be) very useful hero supporter, but destructive whirlwind doesn't correspond with his role.

and have his Last Alliance armor when he is summoned in the Last Alliance Spell.
And in which faction he is summoned in the Last Alliance Spell? So where will be chance to see him in this armour? :P
Elves with Elrond were removed from Arnor ultimate spell and there is completely different effect (Gondor summoning). Try to play for Arnor. :P
And in Imladris? Yes, there is Last Alliance Spell, but logically without Elrond because he is as a permanent and main hero there ... and clones had only in Matrix trilogy. xD

But I have an idea ...
Elrond's role as a helper to others is fulfilled with his "Refresh" ability, which allows an allied hero to instantly use their abilities again. I would argue that Refresh is Elrond's other iconic ability.
I completely agree with you, in vanilla game such spell was available on level 10 ... maybe this could be effect of the Elven ring, mass heal and recovering of abilities for heroes, because it's mighty ability and Elrond isn't powerful sorcerer, so in that case his healing skills are supported by the Elven ring. So on level seven will be space for some new and "normal" ability. :)
For level 7 (or for lower level - it isn't important) I suggest simply solution - "mount/dismount" - we know that he is able ride a horse quite a long time, since days of Arnor ...


and in the first Hobbit movie we can see him as a leader of Imladris cavalry:


... also it fits into the faction, Imladris will have melee cavalry and only Glorfindel and Arwen are able to ride.

So effects for three Elven rings of power will be following:
Narya - supports
Nenya - protects
Vilya - heals



It makes sense. :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Jul 2015, 21:26



Nenya - protects


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/19/52/68/1952680fc120a77f4c8299a725cba1c1.jpg)

It makes sense. :)

Nenya protects indeed   (**) 8-) xD


Zitat
I completely agree with you, in vanilla game such spell was available on level 10 ... maybe this could be effect of the Elven ring, mass heal and recovering of abilities for heroes, because it's mighty ability and Elrond isn't powerful sorcerer, so in that case his healing skills are supported by the Elven ring. So on level seven will be space for some new and "normal" ability. :)
For level 7 (or for lower level - it isn't important) I suggest simply solution - "mount/dismount" - we know that he is able ride a horse quite a long time, since days of Arnor ...

I agree, I think that only Galadriel, among all the other elven heroes, should be able to use Magic in the way of modifying the Weather to create storms or whirls.
We could say that Elrond's 'little tornado' power is a nice and useful memory of BFME2, but I have never found it really appropriate for the very nature and essence of Elrond himself.

He is more a Healer and a Guardian of a sacred place in the War of the Ring, but, unlike Galadriel, his place/realm was not under constant attack, and he doesn't have to use his powers to physically protect it from heavy assaults (what Galadriel does on the other hand) or to destroy and cleanse an evil and corrupted ruined fortress in a dark wood.
Furthermore, we mustn't forget that Vilya is the Ring of Air, but hasn't primarily the power of conjuring whirlwinds; the main power of Vilya (apart from its protection of Rivendell and its status as the source of all the Joy and Bliss of that place) is maintaining a 'minimum quantity' of Good and Order in the World, whatever happens outside Rivendell.

I like the idea of a mount for him, so kingly, as all the armours are for every hero  :)
Even though 'someone' is so kingly and royal that doesn't even need a mount (but in the books, in ROTK, she rides a beautiful White Horse when she's heading to the Grey Havens)  :P

#AHorseForElrond  :)

Edit:
Also, a mount defines better the 'commander of armies' nature of Elrond, rather than being a wind sorcerer.


Because, obviously, #OnlyGaladrielCan  8-)

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Elrond's proposal
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 15. Jul 2015, 22:34
So Elrond skillset will look something like this:
1) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

Abilities are the same like in the previous version and probably will be the same in the current version. Change is only for level 7 (horse) and former spell on level seven is moved to level 10.
Many arguments for that are above. :)


Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Jul 2015, 22:54

10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes
 


Yes, this is the right purpose, the focus (level 10 ability) will be on his Restoration/Healing ability and nature, as Tolkien describes Rivendell, already in 'The Hobbit', as a calm shelter and place of recovering  :)

Zitat
"His house was perfect whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, nor a pleasant mixture of them all. Evil things did not come into that valley." (The Hobbit, Chapter 3)

(http://static.hdw.eweb4.com/media/wallpapers_1920x1080/movies/1/1/rivendell-the-lord-of-the-rings-movie-hd-wallpaper-1920x1080-7246.jpg)

LORE ACCURACY first  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 00:15
So Elrond skillset will look something like this:
1) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

Abilities are the same like in the previous version and probably will be the same in the current version. Change is only for level 7 (horse) and former spell on level seven is moved to level 10.
Many arguments for that are above. :)
I like this idea. I think that vilya's ability with healing effect is more suitable for him. Also, It would be nice to have Elrond on horse like in hobbit movie.  (**)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 00:46
Zitat
Yes, that's my proposal, but on level 10 should be his Dol Guldur armour. I think that three outfits are quite sufficient and suitable for him. Either way it will be unique. You are talking about four variations and it's quite a lot
you have a point its a lot
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 00:49
It is mentioned in The Silmarillion that Celebrimbor had forged the Three in order to heal and to preserve, rather than to enhance the strengths of each individual bearer, unlike the seven and the nine.

I don't know, I think I basically disagree with your interpretion of the three rings, in the book the three ring is forged so that Noldor and other Elves from the west could remain living in the middle earth against the will of Valar, it is subtle and global influence. But it seems you would rather make them directly related to battle, which go directly against the lore. But I won't argue more on that anymore.

Back to the game, Elrond's healing power doesn't originate from Vilya, he himself is the greatest healer of middle earth. And deleting his final tornado power just for a "mounted/dismounted" toggle? I do not like it one bit. Who will be the massive killer of Imladris then? And I am pretty sure Elrond will fight along side Imladris heavy infantry 95% time on foot, that "mounted/dismounted" toggle is meaningless, just like the mounted ability of Aragorn. Almost all human and elves in Middle earth know how to ride a horse, that doesn't mean we need to give a mounted ability to everyone just to take a precious power slot unless it serves a tactical need.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 01:06
i think his lvl 10 ability should be the water horses for a mass kill ya know like in the books he summons the river ok gandalf did the one horse head but still elrond did the trick so there ya go lvl 10  ability
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 01:22
Have you guys consider idea of spell unlocking like with Aragorn, I know that idea with Aragorn skill's upgrade and unlocking follows his life story, but think it would be fitting for Elrond also. I propose this idea firstly because of that tripple armour upgrade. (Also would like to see that Dol-Guldur's armour). That upgrades could be selected chronologically. (Where we should have 4 models)
During leveling his ability "Armour of high elves" should be stronger and stronger. (Improvement of leadership). Also on lower level, before he got 10 and "Vilya's restoration" (Does this ability can be used on him for healing?) he should have some hero healing ability like Athelas in vanila game, after all he's greatest healer of Middle Earth. This ability on level 10 should be replaced with "Vilya's restoration". 
If four model system is too much, then same idea only with 3 models, and he start with some of mentioned armour's models. :)
Names of model upgrades and order of model upgrading is something I presume you will propose better then me. xD
Also if he becomes a ring hero for Imladris, and there is not space for new abilities in his palantir,(like maybe water ponies  8-) ) maybe is also good idea to implement new look of palantir like team did with Sauron's ring form.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 01:54
  • Starting model without armour, something like:
    http://elvenesse.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Elrond_standup.jpg or this
    http://www.rotezora.org/01_Film/hdr/elben/elrond/elrond3.jpg
  • First upgrade on level 5, model from Last Alliance.
  • Second upgrade on level 7 or 8, model form orc hunt-Hobbit movie UJ.
  • Third upgrad on level 10, model from Dol Guldur-Hobbit movie BoTFa.

I disagree, as you said there is no evolution in Elrond's role, and his armor in last alliance is definitely way better than his armor in Hobbit, it was made from the Noldor craftmanship of second age and he wore it in the most brutal and epic battle against Sauron, it will either be the final armor of his or only appear in the last alliance. That dark armor in Hobbit I is just for hunting , it is barely made for actual battle. I think we don't really need to involve it in the design(but I know the team has already finished this model)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 09:56
It would be nice to have Elrond on horse like in hobbit movie.  (**)
It seems that originally it was your idea some time ago. :D
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1
 (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 10:42
It is mentioned in The Silmarillion that Celebrimbor had forged the Three in order to heal and to preserve, rather than to enhance the strengths of each individual bearer, unlike the seven and the nine.


But all the Rings of Power have, intentionally or unintetionally, this effect on everyone who wields them, either they were corrupted by Sauron's powers or not; even though we know that Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf already have immense powers by themselves, and end up using their Rings also as 'tools' to channel all their full potential, as it is shown in FOTR (book), when Galadriel (tempted by the One Ring and by her desires of dominion) raises her hand and obscure all the Stars in the Sky with Nenya's brightness.
And remember that it's true that the Three were forged by Celebrimbor alone, but he still learnt the basic knowledge (let's call it 'secret formula') to create the Rings of Powers by Sauron himself, and thus the Three are unwillingly bound to the destiny of the One Ring like the other Rings, and share with them fundamental elements/characteristics, and enhancing the natural powers of their bearers is one of these common characteristics.

Zitat
I don't know, I think I basically disagree with your interpretion of the three rings, in the book the three ring is forged so that Noldor and other Elves from the west could remain living in the middle earth against the will of Valar, it is subtle and global influence. But it seems you would rather make them directly related to battle, which go directly against the lore.

You are totally right, that's why I think that a Healing/Restoring power is more suitable for Vilya, since Elrond never used in the lore its powers, apart from the flood (power that he already has), in the destructive purpose of creating whirlwinds.
I recognise that it is his iconic power and a nice remnant of BFME2, but it doesn't really fit Vilya's nature.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 10:44
I have a solution for Elrond's armors: :P
-
Elrond never fought without armor in book or movie. In addition, this is fit for Imladris style. Imladris units without heavy armor have silver color from hobbit movie and for heavy armor have gold color like in Last Aliance. :D

i think his lvl 10 ability should be the water horses for a mass kill ya know like in the books he summons the river ok gandalf did the one horse head but still elrond did the trick so there ya go lvl 10  ability

Yes, this would be probably better. Maybe mounted/dismounted on level 1 and Loud waters fury ability as more powerful spells on level 7 or Level 10.

It would be nice to have Elrond on horse like in hobbit movie.  (**)
It seems that originally it was your idea some time ago. :D
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1
 (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1)
Yes, I like his horse. 8-)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 11:15

Elrond never fought without armor in book or movie. In addition, this is fit for Imladris style. Imladris units without heavy armor have silver color from hobbit movie and for heavy armor have gold color like in Last Aliance. :D



True, although I like his elven robe/'free time' outfit, I find it more suitable for banquets and parties, rather than battles  :P


Again I agree, since in the books/lore Elrond openly uses his powers (in a destructive way) to create a flood to save Frodo from the Ringwraiths, rather than using whirlwinds (because #OnlyGaladrielCan).
It has to be, though, a really powerful and giant flood  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 11:51
Ok, two models, starting with Hobbit light armor, at level 5 getting heavy armor from Last Alliance. First you propose set of abilities without Flood, now Flood is included in set? I am confused now.  :o  :D
Can someone  now describe whole set of abilities from level 1 to level 10?   :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 13:04
It is mentioned in The Silmarillion that Celebrimbor had forged the Three in order to heal and to preserve, rather than to enhance the strengths of each individual bearer, unlike the seven and the nine.
Yes, and my proposal is about it. xD

I don't know, I think I basically disagree with your interpretion of the three rings, in the book the three ring is forged so that Noldor and other Elves from the west could remain living in the middle earth against the will of Valar, it is subtle and global influence. But it seems you would rather make them directly related to battle, which go directly against the lore. But I won't argue more on that anymore.

I really don't know why you are talking about Elven rings generally, that their implementation is bad etc. It isn't my interpretation, but it comes from Edain team and from previous versions. We have already stated that we really like effects of Narya and Nenya, because for game play their nature have brilliant implementation. This thread is primarily about Vilya which is offensive although rest of elven rings has defensive potential and also that current Vilya effect doesn't fit there.

he himself is the greatest healer of middle earth. And deleting his final tornado power just for a "mounted/dismounted" toggle? I do not like it one bit. 

Well, firstly you stated that Elrond is the greatest healer, and then that you like his tornado. And tornado comes from Vilya? You stated elven rings of power arent't for battle purpose. Of course that Elrond is greatest healer and his abilities are supported by ring of preservation. I think it fits perfectly and mainly it fits into the general ring concept.

Who will be the massive killer of Imladris then?

He is mass slayer? Really? :o
I always thought that he is strong hero supporter and secondarily unit supporter + ring hero. His abilities don't correspond with mass slayer role, such role have for instance Smaug as a big creature, Mollock as a terrible monster or Gandalf as a powerful wizard.

And I am pretty sure Elrond will fight along side Imladris heavy infantry 95% time on foot, that "mounted/dismounted" toggle is meaningless

Don't forget that Imladris will be the second "most cavalry faction" in the game. xD
And only two heroes there are able to ride a horse.

Almost all human and elves in Middle earth know how to ride a horse, that doesn't mean we need to give a mounted ability to everyone just to take a precious power slot unless it serves a tactical need.

Yes, but in Edain mod, all heroes, who are on horseback in the books and in the movies quite a long time, or at least twice, have such possibility.

Concerning idea of Tienety ... it would be second suggestion. :)

First proposal is:
1) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

First four levels Elrond has bathrobe. Since level 5 armour from the first Hobbit movie and on level ten his DG armour.

And second proposal:
1) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area (but stronger than previous one on first level)
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

First four levels armour from the first Hobbit movie. Since level 5 armour from Dol Guldur. Overall he is without bathrobe! :o xD

Generally his last alliance armour should be for Arnor and he should be included in Last Alliance spell there. http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30925.0.html
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 13:10
what about that. beginning should be elrond with his gold robe https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/03/fd/83/03fd83eadc0761543360ca5f8b688f85.jpg or the one from lotr https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/53/52/0c/53520c6e951a44203e33db4c3418d74f.jpg and then you have to choose the armor you want to forge for him and the armors should have their own buffs whada ya think ???
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 13:20
what about that. beginning should be elrond with his gold robe https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/03/fd/83/03fd83eadc0761543360ca5f8b688f85.jpg or the one from lotr https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/53/52/0c/53520c6e951a44203e33db4c3418d74f.jpg and then
Well, Elrond currently has brown bathrobe from vanilla game and from the Fellowship of the Ring.


I don't expect that Ea will create for him second bathrobe. He hasn't strength for DG armour and in addition second bathrobe is quite a lot. xD
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 14:01
TiberiusOgden, I respect you and other experienced members on this forum! :)
But I have to ask you next:
Have you consider to replace that ability "Elrond's advice" for some healing ability?
Does he need healing ability on lower levels for himself or for supporting other heroes?
And what is real benefit of  giving other heroes exp? (If ability gives exp to some elite units or units in general, but hero ??? I know that Elrond's advice would be nice from lore and movie aspect and unique in way you propose it, and I like it because it is unique in that way, but really what is benefit from it? Every hero can kill basic units and get exp, ofc weaker heroes won't attack strong or elite units, that is strategy of the game anyway...)

Btw I am for second proposal of skills set! :)
More power and less graphic design, despite I  also proposed some of that robes in comment earlier. (But there always can be fusion of good characteristics from both proposals.  :D I know, greedy I am , and Ea will judge any situation with new graphic characteristics  xD )


Really like this and also I am for many more changes in Arnor faction. (In next few days I will open new topics about Arnor and I expect you guys there! :). For now all I do is bug reporting  [uglybunti] , but I have a lot ideas for Arnor!  8-) )
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 14:05

Very difficult to choose, they are both well balanced and interesting.

I would say that the first one is focused more on Elrond's graphical characteristics and innovation (with three different armours/robes), and defines better Elrond's role as commander/general.

The second one, on the other hand, lacks an outfit, but highlights better his magical and destructive powers, that are represented by his ability of creating a powerful flood (stronger than the actual on level 1).

I would say that I prefer the first one, since we would have a more graphically improved Elrond.
But I think that, apart from the differences between the two, the crucial point is finally giving Vilya a proper power and representation, as a tool that will heal and restore you and your allies, in the spirit of Elrond's solidarity towards all the Free People of Middle Earth; and both the two proposals are focused on this matter  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 14:12
Does he need healing ability on lower levels for himself or for supporting other heroes?
You mean vanilla "athelas" - don't worry, the same effect of this spell has Arwen. And overall Imladris has and will have the most healing spells from the all of factions. It's characteristic.

And what is real benefit of  giving other heroes exp? (If ability gives exp to some elite units or units in general, but hero ??? I know that Elrond's advice would be nice from lore and movie aspect and unique in way you propose it, and I like it because it is unique in that way, but really what is benefit from it?
As you said :P - it's unique, lore accurate and mainly useful during the whole game (of course - mainly in the beginning).

Very difficult to choose, they are both well balanced and interesting.
It doesn't matter which one. Main point is Elrond's skillset. His potential new armour or "bathrobes" ... xD .. is second and additional thing.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 14:53
That is exactly what I meant. I assumed about healing potencial in Imladris faction, anyway  played vanilla a lot and athelas stayed term which I will link always with Elrond. :)

Said I like it because of it. Anyway if unit leveling system in Imladris faction stays same like in 3.8.1, then this ability gains in importance and idea about unit leveling fails. :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 15:30
I think it will be better for Elrond to have his Hobbit Armor on LV 5 then on LV 10 hi BoFA Gold Armor as for his Last Alliance Armor to stay only to when he is in the Spellbook! :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 15:33
what about a second palantier healing skills and fighting skills ???
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 16:20
what about a second palantier healing skills and fighting skills ???
Wouldnt so many Palantirs and Powers make him to OP !? :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 16:28
I said I wouldn't agrue on the lore about the three ring anymore, I just want to mention the fact that the more power we associate with the three the more we violate the lore, that'all.

I don't like the name "restoration of Vilya" one bit, it is true all the three has the use of "healing and preservation", but Vilya has nothing particularly to do with healing, if it works for "restoration of Vilya" then we could also have "restoration of Nenya/Narya", if we have to associate power with Vilya, it should be something else. There are always speculations that Vilya could be used to control natural element to some extent, that's why I could accept the tornado power from the previous version to be related to Vilya. Maybe with more tactical use instead of purely destruction.

And I hold my point that the "mounted/dismounted" toggle will be a total waste for Erlond's power set, you claim that Imladris will be the second horse-related faction after Rohan, I don't know how many inside information you have from the team. Imladris already have two heroes to fight alongside the cavalry, it doesn't need a third one. And I am pretty sure Imladris will rely on the infantry just as most other faction, cavalry will always be a support force in battlefield. Elrond should always fight alongside the main force of Imladris, following his fighting style from original game. The same reason why we shouldn't give Boromir a horse.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 16:41
I agree about that Elrond doesnt need a Mont!He is a Infantry Hero abd Support so I tihnk he doesnt need a steed! :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 16:51
About Vilya: I am considering a leadership or power related to the Elemental Mage of Imladris.
About armor: Have you considered relating his golden armor to Elladan and Elrohir? They could still enter the forge and strengthen Imladris heroes in 3.8.1, keep this function, and let them upgrade Elrond's hunting armor to golden battle armor
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 17:28
And I hold my point that the "mounted/dismounted" toggle will be a total waste for Erlond's power set, you claim that Imladris will be the second horse-related faction after Rohan, I don't know how many inside information you have from the team. Imladris already have two heroes to fight alongside the cavalry, it doesn't need a third one. And I am pretty sure Imladris will rely on the infantry just as most other faction, cavalry will always be a support force in battlefield. Elrond should always fight alongside the main force of Imladris, following his fighting style from original game. The same reason why we shouldn't give Boromir a horse.

I don't see problem if Imladris will have three heroes with horses. Elrond is the leader of Imladris riders in movie. In addition, you can still choose If Elrond will lead infantry or riders.
Gondor is similar like Imladris, also has strong infantry and cavalry. Boromir does not needs a horse, because already Aragorn, Faramir, Gandalf and Imrahil have horses in Gondor. If Aragorn can have horse as powerful infantry hero, why not Elrond?  8-)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 17:33
Because it will take a precious power slot. I am not a huge fan for Aragorn's mounted either.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 17:50
just put 2 palantirs
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 16. Jul 2015, 17:53
The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 17:57
The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Maybe he could have one or more different abilities on his horse. A few other heroes has a similar system. :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 18:22
I said I wouldn't agrue on the lore about the three ring anymore, I just want to mention the fact that the more power we associate with the three the more we violate the lore, that'all.

I don't like the name "restoration of Vilya" one bit, it is true all the three has the use of "healing and preservation", but Vilya has nothing particularly to do with healing, if it works for "restoration of Vilya" then we could also have "restoration of Nenya/Narya", if we have to associate power with Vilya, it should be something else. There are always speculations that Vilya could be used to control natural element to some extent, that's why I could accept the tornado power from the previous version to be related to Vilya. Maybe with more tactical use instead of purely destruction.


It's true that we are still talking about a game, but the lore should always be regarded as  the main source and inspiration of everything.
As you had rightly written before, the Three Rings were made with the purpose of slowing the ineluctable decay of the World and the flow of Time, allowing the Elves to remain for other more than 3 millennia in Middle Earth, having all their creations/realms (Rivendell and the Golden Wood) untainted by Time and evil influences.
These are fundamental things, and I think that they shouldn't be just taken as irrevelant elements.

Given these solid lore facts, Narya has already a supporting power, Nenya will indeed protect Lothlórien, and Vilya should be naturally focused on healing and restoring your units/heroes and your allies' ones, just like every weary stranger can find peace and calmness in Rivendell.

It's true that even Elrond has powerful magical powers on Nature, but he mainly uses them to protect Rivendell (even though it never suffered heavy assaults from evil creatures) and make it a holy and safe sanctuary/shelter, to the point of resembling the Splendour of Eressëa and Eldamar in Middle Earth (and it's an incredible and mighty ability, considering how dark and dangerous is the late Third Age).
Elrond only uses his powers in a 'violent' way when he saves Frodo, creating a flood, and this power is already implemented.
That's why the whirlwind power of Elrond, even though it is an iconic ability from BFME2, doesn't fit with his character, because he is not a sorcerer, and doesn't use magic in that way.

#OnlyGaladrielCan :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 19:13
About Vilya: I am considering a leadership or power related to the Elemental Mage of Imladris.
Just help us invent something more suitable for Vilya in order to correspond to the rest of elven rings, this thread is still open for discussion. :P

About armor: Have you considered relating his golden armor to Elladan and Elrohir? They could still enter the forge and strengthen Imladris heroes in 3.8.1, keep this function, and let them upgrade Elrond's hunting armor to golden battle armor
I don't know if it remains, but mainly - such function is for weapons and not for armour.

The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Exactly, in order to be easier to play and for balance as well. Mouth of Sauron, Gorthaur or Arnor prince have two palantirs only technically, but in reality it isn't second palantir as a advantage, but they simply need it for their roles - transformation palantir for Gorthaur, Dunedain/prince switch for Aranath etc ...  but in the game, there is no hero, who has two palantirs as a advantage, except of Sauron with the One Ring, but Sauron has something better. 8-)

I don't see problem if Imladris will have three heroes with horses. Elrond is the leader of Imladris riders in movie. In addition, you can still choose If Elrond will lead infantry or riders.
Gondor is similar like Imladris, also has strong infantry and cavalry. Boromir does not needs a horse, because already Aragorn, Faramir, Gandalf and Imrahil have horses in Gondor. If Aragorn can have horse as powerful infantry hero, why not Elrond?  8-)
Well, it's extremely strong argument. I completely agree. :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordMaus am 16. Jul 2015, 19:25
what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-61OZZg6AbAE/TmTu_rkQMQI/AAAAAAAAAXc/VsIwWI3LNto/s1600/threerings.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 19:28
about the rings of power i think it will be best as an upgrade to enhance the camp somehow

what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-61OZZg6AbAE/TmTu_rkQMQI/AAAAAAAAAXc/VsIwWI3LNto/s1600/threerings.jpg)
the elfs in the picture is Círdan has Narya Gil-galad has Vilya and Galadriel has Nenya
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 19:42
what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty

I hope that you are talking about elven races or elven nationalities, because I suppose that is obvious who are bearers of Elven rings of power and where they are living. 8-| xD

It isn't easy to say.

Imladris -  last refuge of Noldor elves
Woodland realm - Sindar (Thranduil, Legolas) and Silvan elves (Non canon Tauriel for instance)
Lorien - Sindar (Celeborn) and Silvan elves and Gladys as the highest ranking member of Noldor in the Middle-Earth.

And concerning Lindon - Cirdan is Sindar, but I think that there are some Noldor elves as well.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 21:28


Imladris -  last refuge of Noldor elves
Woodland realm - Sindar (Thranduil, Legolas) and Silvan elves (Non canon Tauriel for instance)
Lorien - Sindar (Celeborn) and Silvan elves and Gladys as the highest ranking member of Noldor in the Middle-Earth.

And concerning Lindon - Cirdan is Sindar, but I think that there are some Noldor elves as well.

Good points, and furthermore:

Eressëa - Teleri (the same group of Sindar and Woodland Elves), most specifically Falmari.

Eldamar - Falmari, mostly Noldor (remnant of the Royal Family, guided by Galadriel's father Finarfin).

Valinor - A few Noldor, mostly Vanyar with Maiar and Valar  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 11:12
You are all forgetting something. There are three roles Elrond has in the lore. He is a healer par excellence. He is bearer of the most powerful of the elven rings. And he is the loremaster of the Noldor, in whose blood lingers the mighty power of the house of Fingolphin, of Elu, and of Melian the Maiar, the powerful sorceress who taught Galadrial the arts of sorcery.

Thus it does stand to reason that Elrond should have powerful sorceries, and there are two sources for "magic"in Tolkien. There are the natural abilities of the Maiar and to a lesser extent the elves, and then there is the learned knowledge of the Noldor. Finrod for instance engaged in a battle of sorcerous songs with Sauron, and Melian, kept the woodland realm more or less impervious to Melko/Melkor/Morgoth. I think it is important to remember that Rivendell is much like the woodland realm in beriland, and Elrond's powers should be like that, a powerful defensive endurance but like the veil of Melian, it should be tied to the buildings of Imaldras. Leave the tornado itself alone and instead move the flood to be a power of the Imaldras fortress that is used when Elrond is garrisoned inside. Ramp up the power a bit, but limit the range, to let Rivendell as a faction be capable of being a defensive faction. Rivendell as the last refuge should be just that, a faction that you bleed through the nose to overcome.

In a way consider Rivendell to be a counterpart to Lothlorien, Lothlorien passively resists and endures the changes of the world, but in Rivendell, there is an active fight back against change. Consider also, the major effect of Vilya on the world was that over Rivendell the stars were brighter. This is something considerably more powerful than Nenya merely resisting change, or Narya inspiring hope, this is turning back time!

For Vilya itself, let the power be that Elrond is able to know what moves, give him the omniscence power from Cirdan. This fits both thematically with Elrond and his powers of foresight, and with Elrond as a support hero.


Before you say anything about the relativeness between Galadrial and Elrond, consider the important distinction, when Tolkien discusses the might of Galadrial, he calls her the greatest of the Noldo left in Middle Earth. Elrond is not actually a Noldo. Most of his Elven blood is Telri. His father was the son of a man and a Noldo princess, however, his mother was the great granddaughter of Melian and Elu. Thus how can Elrond be a Noldo, if he is only quarter Noldo, quarter man, and half Grey Elf?

What does all this mean in relative terms, well consider all of this in conjunction. Elrond is the lorekeeper, the holder of the last refuge, and the eldest of those who bore the blood of children of Illuver. He was in wisdom unsurpassed. Wise in all lore is master Elrond. Is it to much to consider that he does have a role as a sorcerer on the field? Yes he does not tear down the walls of Dol Guldor, however, is that to say he is not capable? I like the tornado, it shows a homage to the idea that the lore master might actually be able to turn the world on it's head and it deserves to remain out of consideration for that. For all we know it might simply be a matter akin to Voldermort having powers that Dumbledore does not, it is not that they are not availiable, it is that Dumbledore is not willing to use them. Likewise, how can we know that if war really came a knocking on Elrond's precious refuge that he would not have struck out with all the collective knowledge of the mysteries of the ages he had collected.

On another note, a powerful suggestion for Elrond for vilya would be add a series of passive abilities, which share the one palantiar slot. These abilities decrease ability recharge times for all nearby units and heroes as well as increasing passive healing rates and periodically regenerate missing battalion members. Let this be a sign of Vilya pushing back time to increase the beauty and wonder of the world!

Oh and on the topic of the three rings, while the elven rings did not enhance the wearer, they did require the wearer to already possess power of their own.

Furthermore, you can see the three rings powers more along the lines of this"

Narya, the rekindler. Narya essentially is the fire that renews, much in the way a forest fire renews the land. It encourages the natural regrowth of what is already there.
In this way you see it with Gandalf and Cirdan, Cirdan gives the ring to Gandalf to rekindle the hearts of men, which implies it is to encourage the regrowth of what were the natural abilities of men.

Nenya, the endurer. Nenya is about being resistant to change, it is like water, no matter how much you interfere with it, it always remains the same.
Again this is visible in Lorien, which stands almost against time, it is not a matter of being able to resist change, it is matter of being almost immune to it, Lorien is like a place frozen in time.

Vilya- the renewer. Vilya represents the remaking of the old as new. In this way it is like the wind, or the air, they always remain, even the new will be as the old.
Vilya makes Rivendell the ancient world of the stars in the third age of the sun. It unamkes the darkness of arda marred to restore to middle earth the majesty of what once was. It is clearly the greatest of the three rings, and certainly represents the dearest dream of Celembrior, to remake the world of the elder days in the now. 
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 12:37

So much things to say about your comment... But I promise to synthesise a bit  xD

Elrond, along with his twin brother Elros, descends indeed from an extraordinary bloodline of legendary characters that have changed and eternally marked the First Age of Arda, and all the history of the World, since, as we know, from Elrond/Elros' bloodline has descended the mighty and legendary  Númenóreans, the ancestors of the people of Arnor and Gondor in the Third Age.
Elrond has in his blood the power and the spirit of the mighty House of Fingolfin of the Noldor (being him the grandson of Idril, daughter of Turgon, the King of Gondolin) and the one of the famous Edain Houses (from Tuor); on the side of his mother, then, Elrond descends from Beren and Lúthien, and thus indirectly from the legendary High King of the Teleri, Elwë, and even from the Maia Melian.
Elrond thus is indeed, as you wrote, one of the most powerful and wise character in Middle Earth, also for his difficult childhood as a prisoner/then-pupil of Maedhros and Maglor (sons of Fëanor), during the terrible and destructive (although victorious) War of Wrath , a war that he, as he says during the Council of Rivendell, has directly experienced.

So, having said all those crucial and important things, it's important, though, not to give and attribute to Elrond powers and knowledge that he doesn't have.
Before I start, I want to make a fundamental premise; as I wrote before, Elrond, for his incredible past and story, is indeed one of the most powerful and wisest beings in Middle Earth in the Third Age.
BUT, there are also other facts (both about the lore and the game's mechanics) that it is crucial to examine:

- Rivendell was indeed, as you wrote, made more beautiful and sacred by the action of Vilya, almost reaching the Splendour of Lands/Realms beyond the Sea like Eressëa or Eldamar, because Elrond's Ring is the most powerful among the Three, and has thus a greater effect.
But, apart the Splendour achieved, Rivendell was not under constant threat and attacks during the War of the Ring, and its defensive 'facilities' were not so extensive and 'impressive', since it was more a holy shelter of Calmness and Wisdom of a few Noldor that still lingered in the World.
Lothlórien, on the other hand, is a different matter.
The Golden Wood was made by the powers of Galadriel a Timeless and sacred sanctuary/realm of neverending Joy, but this place also remained completely untainted by any form of evil (from Mordor or Dol Guldur) for more than 3 millennia, because Galadriel constantly continued to fend off the evil powers of Sauron, that, instead, had spreaded throughout all the Lands of Middle Earth, directly or not.
The Sky on the Golden Wood, though, remained always calm and sunny, and the place itself became a sort of legend, almost a mysterious and quite unreachable place even for the Elves of Mirkwood themselves, as Legolas tells the Fellowship; while we couldn't say the same about Rivendell.
Galadriel (with her powers, not only with the ones of Nenya), then, protected and repulsed three heavy assaults from Dol Guldur, leading eventually her realm to Victory.

- Galadriel, for her essence, personal story and powers, is definitely more powerful, greater and wiser than Elrond.
Elrond was born at the end of the First Age, while Galadriel was born during the Years of the Trees in Valinor before the Sun and the Moon, as a direct member of the powerful and legendary Royal Family of the Noldor, personally taught by the Maiar and the Valar; she has personally experienced the apex of the Splendour of Valinor before its Darkening, and captured the source of this Splendour, the holy Light of the Two Trees, in her hair.
Elrond didn't see that Light and will never do it; even if Elrond descends from a legendary bloodline, this doesn't immediately grant him immense powers, since Power is also the sum of Experience, Past Memories and Age.
Galadriel, that already in Aman was indicated as the most powerful elf maiden of the Noldor (and we surely know that at that time the standards of Power were immensely high), she then became a scholar of Melian in Beleriand, was the only one member of the Noldorin Royal Family to survive the War of the Jewels and her powers gradually increased during the Second and the Third Age.
Her natural powers are thus far greater than the ones of Elrond, because his powers are different, focused more on Healing/Restoration, rather than direct Protection or unleashing destructive natural powers with Magic.
The line of Tolkien you referred to is very indicative and essential, Galadriel is the greatest of the Noldor,reaching also the Might and Importance of Fëanor himself; she is, according Tolkien's words, definitely stronger than Elrond.

- Given these fundamental facts, we in fact want to change Elrond a bit, focusing more on his healing Magic and military ability of a leader, rather than natural Magic.
That's why a mount and different powers of Vylia seem to me more appropriate and very suitable for him.

Sorry for the wall of text  xD

#OnlyGaladrielCan :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 12:47
And overall we have "Lord of the rings" section for such debate.
These walls of texts really won't help us to invent great concept for Elrond. 8-|

Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 13:19
And overall we have "Lord of the rings" section for such debate.
These walls of texts really won't help us to invent great concept for Elrond. 8-|

Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:

I know, I'm sorry.
I promise that, from now on, I will religiously stick to concepts and game's mechanics  :)

That GIF of Elrond looks very familiar to me  :D


But, if you look closely, there is, after the wall of text, a tiny and small paragraph about Elrond's concept and game's mechanics, and the lore connects everything  xD

Zitat
- Given these fundamental facts, we in fact want to change Elrond a bit, focusing more on his healing Magic and military ability of a leader, rather than natural Magic.
That's why a mount and different powers of Vylia seem to me more appropriate and very suitable for him.

Zitat
Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/44e6f985410f7bac7d8818b4368b8171/tumblr_nh7k6tkiVy1qemcawo1_500.gif)

That's the proper picture that sums everything between Golden Elrond and Seaweed Galadriel  :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 13:31
See my point was actually, that there is this discussion as to removing the Tornado power from Elrond, hence what I was responding to.

Furthermore, your simply wrong to claim that Galadrial is more wise than Elrond, hermeneutically speaking Tolkien in using the term wise is seeking to infer learned, rather than experience. This is notable in how he describes the leaders of the west as "The Wise" and how the Valar themselves are also referred to as such.

Elrond then of whom it said expressly that "wise in all lore is master Elrond" should be considered from the pen of Tolkien as the most learned of the Elves left. 
This is significant in that it means that as the lord of the refuge of the elves, it is likely that Elrond is well learned in the sorceries of the Noldor.

In respect to Galadrial and Elrond, that has to do with my other point as to the nature of magic in Arda. There is a natural power that Elrond is hinted to have inherited (Foresight from Melian) or learned sorceries, which to be honest is the kind that Galadrial has acquired from her tutelage from Melian and from her time in Aman. Her natural qualities incline her to a greater level of mental insight, but not necessarily the telepathy of the movies.

For a concept however for Elrond, these are important elements to consider. It is much to easy to let Peter Jackson's images confuse us to the nature of the characters, and ultimately the written work of Tolkien must trump Jackson's imagery.

To that end, I propose, Elrond the Wise, Loremaster of Rivendell and Holder of Vilya.

First ability. The teachings of Elrond; aoe ability, adds a small amount of xp to heroes and Battalions in a radius.

Second Ability; Vilya's renewal.; Vilya the greatest of the elven rings, passively decreases the cooldowns of all heros and battalions within a set radius. This ability gains extra effects at level 5, 7 and 10. At five it increases the passive healing rate of heros and adds passive healing to battalions. At 7 it revives one dead man per battalion every 15 seconds. At level 10 it adds a passive fear resistance and adds an experience rate boost.   

Third Ability; Tornado.; as the game.

Fourth Ability; restoration; as the game.

Fifth Ability, Foresight; Elrond has total sight of the map. In the lore, the gift of foresight was something that Elrond was blessed with from his Great Grandmother.   

Additionally, when Elrond reaches level 10 and so long as Elrond is within a short radius, the Imaldris capital building gains a flood power. This can only be used within a limited radius and while Elrond remains close to the base.

Elrond wielding the waters of the Bruinen is something he can only do in a fixed area because he has embedded his power into it. Like Melian and her Girdle, it is located around Rivendell.

This concept of Elrond then is towards a view of him as being the spine of an Imaldris army, he either makes it endure, or gives it the power to cut through the enemy.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 13:47

Please, do not tempt me  :P

I think, if you want, that we can more easily discuss lore matters on the 'Lord of the Rings' section of the 'Prancing Pony'  :)
But, just a hint, there a lot of references in LOTR (books) of 'telepathic' abilities of Galadriel; when, for example, she guesses Frodo's questions about the Rings of Power, when she telepathically 'communicates' with Gandalf, Celeborn and Elrond during their return from the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, or, most importantly, when (as also Haldir tells the Fellowship) she constantly telepathically fights against Sauron, each other trying to reveal the other's plans, and Galadriel always succeeds  :)

About the Elrond's 'Tornado', I recognise that it is an iconic power of his from BFME2, but it doesn't really fit, because the power involving the flood is already implemented, and I would like that the ability of conjuring whirlwinds and storms remains a characteristic of Galadriel.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 13:53
My issue is that the flood does not fit. The flood is something which needs to be moved from Elrond as it is only possible in a limit geography. Hence why I suggest tying it to the Fortress using a leadership aura to trigger and enable it.

Read the passage from Fellowship of the ring, Gandalf when he explains it to Frodo, talks about how Elrond has put his power into the river.

Also, this discussion of Elrond as a military leader, he is not a military leader in the Third Age. Glorfidel is the leader of the armies of Imaldris, Elrond instead is information, intelligence and healing.

Move Elrond's powers then to things which support the army which I am advocating, and that is something the Tornado does. Mechanically, it rarely kills anything, but it does break up the horde. This is a powerful strategic ability which denies favourable position to the enemy, and removing it will likely have a powerful macro effect on Imaldris gameplay.  To be honest, if you want to talk about things not fitting, then remove Gandalf's word of Power!

On another note, Imaldris not under constant siege, interesting how you more or less ignore the founding of Rivendell, and the whole mess with the Witch King. Yes in the late Third Age, Lothlorien is dealing with Dol Guldor, but Galadrial had not been in the Golden Wood until the Third Age. Rivendell in contrast was fighting for survival after the ruin of Eregion, and against the Witch King as well. In both instances Rivendell was under siege for an extended period.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 14:32
Zitat
Also, this discussion of Elrond as a military leader, he is not a military leader in the Third Age. Glorfidel is the leader of the armies of Imaldris, Elrond instead is information, intelligence and healing.

Elrond has always been a military leader (being at the same time a healer/counselor) since his 'early' days as a herald of Gil-galad; from the Last Alliance to his alliance with Men against Angmar and, then, Mordor.

Zitat
On another note, Imaldris not under constant siege, interesting how you more or less ignore the founding of Rivendell, and the whole mess with the Witch King. Yes in the late Third Age, Lothlorien is dealing with Dol Guldor, but Galadrial had not been in the Golden Wood until the Third Age. Rivendell in contrast was fighting for survival after the ruin of Eregion, and against the Witch King as well. In both instances Rivendell was under siege for an extended period.

I referred to the Third Age (especially the War of the Ring), and thus the founding of Rivendell is excluded; and I wrote 'constantly', that means for quite the entire Third Age, while the war between Rivendell and Angmar was a 'part'/'section' of the more extensive war between Men and Angmar (it was a successful intervention of Gondor that saved the day).
Lothlórien had instead to directly deal with all the threats and evil presences that began to establish in Mirkwood long before the War of the Ring; and, in the War of the Ring (when Rivendell was completely safe), Galadriel personally and directly led her realm to Victory.

Zitat
Move Elrond's powers then to things which support the army which I am advocating, and that is something the Tornado does. Mechanically, it rarely kills anything, but it does break up the horde. This is a powerful strategic ability which denies favourable position to the enemy, and removing it will likely have a powerful macro effect on Imaldris gameplay.  To be honest, if you want to talk about things not fitting, then remove Gandalf's word of Power!

Elrond is a Hero/Units Supporter, not a Mass Slayer like Gandalf; the difference is important.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 17. Jul 2015, 14:51
There have been lots of really great ideas thrown around in this thread but sometimes I feel as though people occasionally place lore-faithfulness over having good gameplay.  Some systems are unnecessarily complex. If Elrond is a unit/hero supporter all, or at least 4 of his abilities should follow that.  I like Eldalf's suggestion though I would replace tornado with Flood (the idea to have Elrond use flood from the fortress is reminiscent of Sarumans system and just another burdensome mechanic).  And I would remove Foresight (Cirdan already has it) and replace it with a level 5 armor buff accompanied by a change in appearance to his brown-silver armor.  Vilyas  Renewal should have its exact effects tweaked but the base idea is very good and very fitting for Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 15:01
Elrond really needs to have foresight, or something related to it though.

Elrond's gift of foresight is something which is quite central to his character. I would sooner see Cirdan lose foresight than Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 15:08
There have been lots of really great ideas thrown around in this thread but sometimes I feel as though people occasionally place lore-faithfulness over having good gameplay.  Some systems are unnecessarily complex. If Elrond is a unit/hero supporter all, or at least 4 of his abilities should follow that.  I like Eldalf's suggestion though I would replace tornado with Flood (the idea to have Elrond use flood from the fortress is reminiscent of Sarumans system and just another burdensome mechanic).  And I would remove Foresight (Cirdan already has it) and replace it with a level 5 armor buff accompanied by a change in appearance to his brown-silver armor.  Vilyas  Renewal should have its exact effects tweaked but the base idea is very good and very fitting for Elrond.

This is exactly, with maybe some differences, what I'm trying to express.
Given Elrond's role, it would be more appropriate a concept more focused on his military abilities as a leader, and I totally agree about the flood (that is already implemented, by the way) and the different representation of Vilya's powers, rather than a lore and role problematic whirlwind.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 15:17
The issue though is the flood and the whirlwind preform different distinct roles. Flood is a knockback + damage effect, Whirlwind is a persistent area denial + damage+knockback. I feel that switching the whirlwind for the flood would negatively effect the meta use of the abilities. Game balance has to count for something here. Furthermore, why does Elrond need to be the army leader? Lore wise he is not, not since the second age has Elrond marched to war. Not even when his wife was taken by orcs.

Flood is a useless ability in my view, it has too short a range, is negligible on the damage front, and does not cause enough disruption. My suggestion with moving it to the fortress with an aura to enable it, would enable for the damage and radius to be boosted as it becomes a defensive power rather than one that can be used aggressively.

To elaborate a bit more, if Elrond is a supporter hero, why should he be close enough to the general melee to be able to effectively use flood? Should he not be somewhere a bit more withdrawn to better direct the flow and apply his buffs?

Mechanically, I feel that heroes roles should reflect their lore. In this sense, Elrond as the hero and unit supporter thematically does reflect that. So to does the whirlwind power. Flood in it's current incarnation does nothing well, and is a wasted power slot.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 16:34
elrond made the flood but gandal made the horse head
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 17:11
Elrond made a flood, out of a river in which he had invested his powers. It was something he could only have done with the Bruinien. Consider the ring, it was Sauron's because he had placed his essence within it. Elrond had done something similar to Rivendell. Whether the ring played a role in this is debatable, but the flood was something that was limited to the river surrounding Rivendell. It is why I feel it does not fit for Elrond to have it as a power. Far better for the whirlwind power that is nominally tied to vilya.

Not to mention that mechanically the flood power feels odd. I know in 3.8.1 I did not want Elrond to be leading my armies from the front, I wanted him as a backline hero, adding experience and restoring my heroes. Even should he be made into an army leader hero, it makes no sense to have him on the front line. His hero supporter role is such that like Galadrial he should be towards the back, healing and buffing the forces you have. The Whirlwind power supports this role, it holds a flank of the battle, either denying the ground to the enemy or by disrupting their formation. I would even support a unit summon over the flood on a pure mechanical level as that would preform the same macro function.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 18:05
elrond is a good fighter and a good leader and he is the best healer in ME so i think he his skills needs to be a mix of those leadership healing and the flood i think its a signature skill of his
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 19:08
My problem with the flood vs whirlwind is the gameplay of the two. The flood does not fufill the same gameplay role. The flood in the books is a power cast from well outside line of sight and would be an army killer ability, is this what you are advocating here? Three measly water horses from direct line of sight in no way matches with the lore, and in no way are equivalent to the gameplay tactics of the tornado. Lord Elrond in the Edain mod is a hero support and army supporter. Healing, Foresight, experience gift all contribute to that. A leadership that aura passively reduces cooldowns and boosts healing would fit well with the powers of Vilya. That leaves one last power. This power should be a strategic power, one that can change the course of the battle with the correct application. Maybe something like the Arnor spellbook flood would fit here, with toned down damage and increased cast range, but a short range flood like he had in 3.8.1 is utterly useless to say the least. It does not contribute to the hero's abilities in support, nor does it make sense with the heroes role in the battlefield. He is supposed to be a semi-backline hero not changing into battle. Unless you decouple cast range from the spell, flood just becomes a spell you only use as a last resort, and that seems kinda odd.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 20:04
well i think it should be a long ranged flood with horses and a lot of dmg
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 20:11
Don't worry, flood will be implemented as a Elrond skill (smaller effect) and as a ultimate spell in the spellbook (large effect).
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 20:46


Then, the second proposal would be a good compromise.
My point, infact, is that I totally agree with the concept of the flood (lore accurate and characteristic for Imladris) and the flood itself is indeed an useful power that can be used to support your units, as a disruptive attack that counters the enemy ranks.
And Vilya would thus be represented as a powerful 'tool' of healing/restoring for your units/heroes and allies.

My main concern is about the whirlwind for Elrond, not really lore accurate, that should remain an iconic characteristic of Galadriel  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 22:14
galadriel needs to have the tornado to be more unique and lore friendly
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 22:19
galadriel needs to have the tornado to be more unique and lore friendly

Yes, as the Dark Queen; but also her normal form will use whirls/storm against structures as a primary attack.
So, I would like that this ability remains an unique and iconic power of her  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 00:01
well and a white horse maybe......... xD
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 18. Jul 2015, 00:45
Back to Elrond please. ;)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2015, 00:45
Warrior Princess Galadriel  8-)

(http://elven.the3rdage.net/Images/galadriel9.jpg)

Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 18. Jul 2015, 00:50
Well, this is about different story. 8-|


And here, we are talking about Elrond's armour, I have to say.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 01:08
(http://www.magic4walls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/queen-war-white-horse-winter-suffering-sodier-snow-painting.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2015, 01:12
Impressive, she really looks like a Valkyrie  :)

Now, really, let's return to the poor Elrond and his golden armour  :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 02:49
ow yes him
 well i rly want the golden armor form dol gudur
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 18. Jul 2015, 05:14
Elrond Short Range flood is a waste. Give him a unit summon instead. Why do you want a short range spell on a hero who ostensibly shouldn't be in a position to use it?

Furthermore, there is no lore to support Galadrial with a tornado in the books.

There is some lore of her casting down the walls of Dol Guldor, but that would suggest more than anything an anti-magic spell, as it was known that the walls of the great fortresses were held up as much by enchantment as by stone. Furthermore, someone was talking about Gandalf's word of power as iconic from the games, well That is what the tornado is for Elrond

So I ask, what the hell does Elrond's flood in it's current format add to the of Elrond? Go beyond your Galadrial fetish, and consider what does it add?

I also ask you to consider my other point, the overall gameplay, If we want to battle this out in lore, then I would say that according to lore there is little justification in any offensive spells aside from shafts of light.

Also, Elrond as a War-Lord is against the lore. After he essentially takes the role of the leader of the Noldor in the West, he does not ride any more into battle. He becomes the supporting figure, with Glorfidel taking that role.

I would have you consider that the relationship between the Glorfidel and Elrond in the armies of Rivendell are much akin to the relationship between General Paton and Eisenhower. One directs, guides, supplies and informs the other, while the other is a powerfully charismatic and personally powerful individual who leads forces into battle.

To get the topic of the golden armour, I feel it is superfluous, there is no direct need to give him more sets of armour or to make him more powerful in direct battle. These are not his roles anymore. Much as Galadrial had given up the role of the warrior princess, so had Elrond given up the role of the War-Lord. Instead both maintained the defenses of their realm through mystical means and utilized their respective means of far-viewing (Galadrial her mirror) (Elrond his innate talent) to coordinate and strive against the forces of evil.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 18. Jul 2015, 09:10
Why would Elrond's flood be a short-ranged spell? It can be changed, it is up to the team. For instance it can stay as a short Area of Effect spell while being cast-able from afar. In that case it would support exactly the same goal as you argue the tornado supports while being more true to the character.

I think you're right about the horse though: Elrond would hardly ever raid into battle, unlike Aragorn who is more susceptible to do so.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 18. Jul 2015, 09:26
I would be more than happy with the flood gaining an increased cast range, and perhaps an area increase if it came to it, but I would also have concerns about the area denial function. I know for myself, I do not use the tornado to kill an enemy army, I use it to control the way the opposing player deploys theirs. Perhaps with a ramp up of the damage and the cast range the flood could instead play a similar role.

There is however a significant element of iconism in the tornado spell. It has always been a staple of Elrond in the BFME game series, and to remove it from him would in some respect be like taking word of power from Gandalf. That said, I do not agree with word of power for gandalf even existing, but it is an argument worth considering. If other heroes have powers for the sake of being "Iconic" then should not the same reasoning be applied here.

We can even apply that to Galadrial, from when do we derive this argument of Galadrial wielding the power of the storm if not from BFME and it's imagery? Nothing in the writing of Tolkien alludes to her as being the Storm Queen, except the use of allegory in the mirror sequence.

Anyway that is my couple of primary concerns. Thematically, it is not sufficient to say that Elrond was not capable of sorcery, it is clear that within the boarders of Imaldris he much like Galadrial with Lothlorien was the primary defensive mechanism. Unlike the woodland realm, it is clear that the Golden wood and Rivendell were both protected by enchantments.

Furthermore as an army leader, Elrond had not marched to war since the Last Alliance. By the War of the Ring he was consultative rather than martial.

These taken together should see Elrond as a backline hero. Where Galadrial is a bulding destroyer/supporter, Elrond should be a healer/buffer/supporter. His powers need to reflect his engagement with enabling others to make direct war which he himself no longer does.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 18. Jul 2015, 10:17
I guess it is a matter of representation then. I just don't see Elrond mastering whirlwinds, but I do picture Galadriel summoning tornadoes or Gandalf being able to one time destroy armies ; regardless of the lore and what Tolkien did or did not write down.

Still, I definitely share your backline Elrond point of view. I believe his skillset must be thought so.


EDIT: It's not really that I don't want Elrond to summon tornados. It's rather that I prefer Galadriel to have this ability, and I think there are other powers that would suit better for him (for instance: foresight, wisdom, leadership, flood)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 18. Jul 2015, 11:07
The Istari thing is one which has always really annoyed me. In every instance, Tolkien wrote that it was expressly forbidden for them to come arrayed in power, that by the nature of their incarnation their nature itself was limited in the extreme. The only point any of that changes is with Gandalf the White, in which his mandate is changed, rather than being the one to inspire resistance he is now given leave to actively resist and we see that with his weaponized beams of light. Word of Power is something which directly goes against his very mission.

But I digress. The topic of the Tornado is one I feel probably is far to flashy for the setting. To be honest, magic in Lord of the Rings is either some kind of technology or item based enchantment, or is wielded in nature by imbuning ones soul in the land in which you dwell. The only instance in which we see a direct combat spell is when Sauron sets Gil-Galad aflame.

However, the BFME games have their own iconic spells and flashyness. Elrond has had the tornado for years and when I think of Elrond in this game I think of the area denying support hero, who empowers other elves and forces enemy armies to collapse on a flank to let the armies of the elves outmaneuver their enemies. If we want to talk about getting back to the intent of Tolkien, then we need to be willing to do this consistently. Likewise, if gameplay is to be the higher calling we need to do that consistently so to if we want to talk about iconism.

Anyway,  I am going to give another draft run of powers.

1st ability, gift of experience. Elrond is to the race of men what Cirdan has been to the elves, he gives a boost of experience to heroes battalions in a small radius.

2nd Ability; Vilya's Restoration; Passive aura that increases in power with Elrond's level. Vilya the greatest of the three rings restores the world into a pristine state. At level three, this ability increases the passive healing rate of all heroes and battalions in an area. At level seven this ability additionally enables Battalions to restore one dead member every 15 seconds. At level 10 this ability additionally reduces the cooldown of abilities by 25% for every battalion and hero in the radius.

3rd Ability; Restoration; This ability heals heroes and units by 50% within the radius and refreshes the cooldown of their abilities.

4th Ability; Foresight; Elrond is possessed of a powerful natural gift of foresight, this ability reveals the entire map for a period of time.

5th Ability; Waters of the Bruienen; A somewhat weakened version of the Anor spellbook power, this ability will knock down and wash away units in a moderate radius, with a large cast range and cooldown.

This Elrond is thus the hero you keep behind the army and he grows in power over time. With the aura, you have the option to also include some armour passives for Elrond himself, and perhaps it might be worth considering switch restoration and the aura's name. Instead association restoration with the direct application of Elrond's ring, and let the aura represent his healing prowess.
Either way, in this sense we have a firm backline hero, who provides healing and strategic support to the army of Rivendell.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 14:29
i like that :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2015, 21:37

You wrote really great lines about the nature of Magic in Tolkien and the particularity of Lothlórien as a 'magically' protected realm (and these aspects will be kind of represented in the Edain Mod), and I totally agree with you.
But there is also something more to add, and I will try not to exceed in boring lore facts stating, also because I feel I have written on MU a ton of posts about this topic.

- No one has ever fetishised or is fetishising Galadriel, since her incredible Might and Importance in Middle Earth's affairs are often hinted at and explained by Tolkien; and, trust me, LOTR and the Silmarillion already give you in their entirety really solid facts and absolute statements about her, as a character and a hero.

- It's true, in the books it is never clearly explained how Galadriel has destroyed Dol Guldur, or what kind of devices she used in her action.
BUT it is easily comprehensible, and the BFME2/Edain Mod solution (whirlwind and storm) is honestly the most reasonable among all the other probabilities; not to mention that the 'relationship' between Galadriel and Storms has always been an iconic element from the very BFME2.
Also, it is fundamental reporting that Galadriel not only did she throw down the Walls of Dol Guldur (and she could have probably used, as you mentioned, a spell that nullified the magical boundaries of the fortress' structures, resembling what Lúthien did in the First Age), but it is also stated that she violently cleansed the fortress and all the surrounding woods by Sauron's memory and the filth of all the evil presences that had been there for centuries, and a Storm is the most immediate and logical way that I can picture in mind.
The MOST REASONABLE explanation that I can give you, of Galadriel's ability involving storms, is the very deep conception of MAGIC of Tolkien.
The elements that you mentioned are crucial, being also the quite exact and 'reflected' thing that happens in Valinor, and the source of the Bliss of this realm (the presence of the Valar).
But, there is something more; another fundamental representation and display of Magic is the ability, of powerful beings, of modifying and manipulating the Weather of the World on a larger scale, according to their will.
And Galadriel and Sauron (the two most powerful beings in Middle Earth in the Third Age) do it all the time, the latter creating an eternal dark Sky of ashes upon Mordor, and the former maintaining a neverending calm and sunny Sky upon Lothlórien; Galadriel, also, long before the War of the Ring, created an enchanted Mist to protect Eorl, the ancestor of the Rohirrim, and his army from the dark influence of Dol Guldur.
Thus, given these essential facts, the ability of Galadriel of conjuring whirlwinds/storms, as also Adrigabbro wrote, can totally be regarded as lore acceptable and iconic  :)

- I think that the problem with Elrond and whirlwinds consists, apart from the lore problematics, in his role as a Hero/Units Supporter.
Galadriel's primary attack against structures (whirlwind) and Gandalf's 'Word of Power' are totally justified by their roles as, respectively, Building Destroyer and Mass Slayer; Galadriel is also a Hero Supporter, and that's why her ultimate level 10 power (Nenya) will focus on Protection.
Given Elrond's role as a supporter hero, he thus should have the healing/restoration powers of Vilya (extended also to the Allies) as his level 10 power, and his flood power would be enough for his role and nature.
A whirlwind as an ability of his, also placed as a level 10 power, doesn't just fit.

Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 18. Jul 2015, 23:24
I've talked with Tienety about it ... quite a lot. xD
And it seems that we have, or we will have some interesting proposal for Elrond, which we will suggest together.
During next days I'll present it.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 03:37
The reason I would put the flood as a level 10 power is to justify increasing it's power. Elrond's use of the Bruinen is one of the most powerful direct applications of
"magic" in the entire series. Comparable easily to how Galadrial destroys an army of orcs during the march of Erol with a Golden Mist. Thus should it not be something memorable in the game? Let it be the pinnacle of his power, a power that would collapse an army flank entirely, how is that not support?
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Jul 2015, 14:13
The reason I would put the flood as a level 10 power is to justify increasing it's power. Elrond's use of the Bruinen is one of the most powerful direct applications of
"magic" in the entire series. Comparable easily to how Galadrial destroys an army of orcs during the march of Erol with a Golden Mist. Thus should it not be something memorable in the game? Let it be the pinnacle of his power, a power that would collapse an army flank entirely, how is that not support?

Ok, even though I would prefer more Vilya's powers of healing/restoration to be his ultimate power, I can accept the concept of the flood (as I also kept on writing in my comments) as his destructive power; I just don't like the idea of him capable of conjuring whirlwinds, and tying this power to Vilya, as it happened in the Edain Mod 3.8.1.

My mentioning of the significant aid of Galadriel to Eorl and his army was mainly meant to show that it is possible, and very lore accurate, inferring that she has the capability of modifying and manipulating the Weather of the World, and its meteorological phenomena.
But Galadriel's aid to Eorl is clearly not the most important manifestation of her usage of Magic in the Third Age.
Elrond created a flood to defeat the 9 Ringwraiths; Galadriel repulsed three heavy and consecutive assaults from Dol Guldur, and then personally destroyed the fortress and cleansed entirely southern Mirkwood from centuries of evil, making grow a Mallorn Tree on its purified soil.
The display of Galadriel's Magic and powers is honestly and logically greater than Elrond's one  :)


Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 14:24
Tolkien describes Galadriel as
Zitat
the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth

But this is my last comment concerning her. This thread is about her son-in-law.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Jul 2015, 14:45
Tolkien describes Galadriel as
Zitat
the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth



Yes, a very lapidary and absolute statement.
If it had been so simple, I would have not written the walls of text that I wrote  xD

Zitat
But this is my last comment concerning her. This thread is about her son-in-law.

Me too, I promise  :)
Otherwise:


Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 15:22
By the way, the first page was updated. :)
Thanks to Tienety for some advice how to deal with Elrond. :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 15:51
Really, a mount toggle? In place of foresight? That is to say the least an absolute waste.  Elrond's Foresight is one of his most dominant attributes. It is a power he possesses by virtue of his descent, much the same way as the keener insight into minds is a power that Galadrial possesses. Furthermore, the experience boosting leadership is also lackluster. A healing leadership might work, but there are four dominant characteristics of Elrond within Tolkien, Loremaster, Healer, Bearer of the Vilya and the gift of foresight. At least let the passive aura reflect the healing prowess, and dual purpose the experience gift ability to affect heroes and battalions. But seriously, Foresight is one of the key features of Elrond in the lore, to take that from him for the sake of a mere horse is absurd.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 16:06
Foresight is one of the key features of Elrond in the lore
Definitely not.
Yes, maybe, but it does not fit to his role, because foresight ability (former Elrond's spell from vanilla game) will have Galdor as a scout hero, which is quite fitting for scout, and don't have to forget Cirdan's last skill. This is the same case like whirlwind - Alatar has whirlwind and lightbringers will have whilwind as well, it means that for Elrond it won't be unique exactly like foresight skill.
Elrond will be (and always was in Edain) Lord of Imladris on the battlefield and not guy with bathrobe somewhere background.

to take that from him for the sake of a mere horse is absurd
Definitely not, except of arguments for this above ... it's also way as nerfed him at least, because either way he is still extremely useful (I rather don't want to say OP) and maybe more useful than Gandy, Gladys, Witch king, etc ... I think. 8-|

By the way Eldalf - especially for you we upgraded skill on level one, according to your arguments in discussion, we also think that his flood is iconic and deserves something better. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 18:06
But Elrond's foresight is more integral to him than Galadrial's mirror. It would bug me to the point I would need to mod it just to not be irritated by it and as a result I would no longer be able to play the mod online. Elrond's gift of foresight is entirely crucial to how he became the lord of Rivendell. It is hinted in some of the stuff that it was only by virtue of this gift that he was able to guide Gil-Galad into seeing Annatar as Sauron. Take the power from Cirdan give it to Elrond, far more fitting...

One thing about Elrond's flood, take the silly horses out of it. Those were something added by Gandalf and they kinda look absurd.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 18:22
It would bug me to the point I would need to mod it just to not be irritated by it and as a result I would no longer be able to play the mod online.
Sorry, but as a Edain moderator I have to deny such stupid argument, because in that case it will be only your problem. If I should think this way in general, so I wouldn't do anything.
I really do not know what should write to you right now, because I am completely shocked.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 19. Jul 2015, 18:27
I support your idea completely!
Elrond should have a Mount since he is a Noble and Famous Elven Lord and beign abel to mount symbolizes that!About the Power of his Ring of Power I like the concepts of all 3 to differ and him geting the healing it will represnt his way of living and leading trying to pretect his kin from any harm in Imladris! :) About his Armor looks I agree that he should have first his AuJ Armor and alter LV 10 BoFA Armor from DG as for his Last Alliance Armor its is most fiting for him in the Spell Last Alliance!Since he whore it so many thousands years ago and is kinda outdated if I may say it that way!While his Hobbit Movie Armors represnt what he used during the Third Age in which the timeline is set and I think it feels right this way and is more fiting for him to use those Armos! :) But instead his Skill to Give Exp to a hero I think he should have his Foresight Ability which he has in the MOvies too! :)
So basicly I am 101% (I added teh 1 on purposse not by mistake this tiem Tiberius :D ) support you on your ideas about Elrond and the Elven Rings! :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 18:47
Well my argument is that the lore itself puts tremendous focus onto that aspect of Elrond, his foresight is one of the things that enabled him to so well serve Gil-Galad as a counselor, It also had other powerful applications in the second age, to do with the alliance with Numenor.

"Thus Narsil came in due time to the hand of Valandil, Isildur’s heir, in Imladris; but the blade was broken and its light was extinguished, and it was not forged anew. And Master Elrond foretold that this would not be done until the Ruling Ring should be found again and Sauron should return; but the hope of Elves and Men was that these things might never come to pass."

It is even hinted that his support for Frodo taking the ring to Mordor was based on an instance of foresight as well.

In this sense, some of the most important actions of Elrond in the Lord of the Rings books are actions he does from his ability to perceive what shall be. He makes ready to reforge Narsil, he sides with Frodo as ring-bearer, he calls together the kindred of the Dunedain to form the Grey Company and sends them hence. These are all actions that indicate an unnatural ability of prelopsis.

In Tolkien's letters he talks of how Elrond “saw many things and read many hearts” and so it would seem that other than as a healer the primary role of Elrond is as a soothsayer.

That is why I have such an emotive reaction over this, removing the ability is a substantial departure from the lore. It would be one thing to say let's remove all heroes abilities that reveal the map, but your not, you are instead talking about removing it from an individual who has one of the greatest claims to it.

In fact, when Gandalf talks about the limits of foresight, it is not himself, or Saruman, or even Galadrial he refers to, it is to Elrond. Within the universe itself amongst the wise, it is to Elrond that we have a reference to the greatest level of foresight and predilection towards prophecy.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Jul 2015, 18:57

Great work, Tiberius and Tienety, and a very smart and useful type of integration between your former two concepts.

Just one thing, I am concerned about the flood.
I really like its concept, and I want it to be implemented, but I'm not sure if the Edain Team would accept it; shouldn't a level 1 power remain a 'moderately weak' and basic power for all the duration of the game?
If it gets stronger and enhanced, wouldn't there be a risk of overpowering?
I would then consider also a gradual slowing of the restoring time of the power, in the course of the levelling up of Elrond.

Anyway, I like the concept in its entirety, and, most importantly, the correct and lore accurate display of the powers of the Three Rings (Vilya in this case).
My motto is: anything but whirlwinds  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 19. Jul 2015, 18:58
I agree with Eldalf ; it would be nonsense to claim playing a Tolkien game and giving foresight to Gildor but not to Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 19:04
shouldn't a level 1 power remain a 'moderately weak' and basic power for all the duration of the game?
It isn't necessary, many heroes have some progress and we wanted something unique and iconic for him.

If it gets stronger and enhanced, wouldn't there be a risk of overpowering?
Logically there must be some normal values for damage ... and there won't be any crucial differences concerning damage while Elrond's leveling so definitely I am not afraid - single whirlwind created by normal hero may cause more balance problems on the battlefield. xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 19. Jul 2015, 19:08
well his damage wont make him Aragorn so I tihnk there is no  fear of overpowering him! Tienity and Tiberius has really made a excellnet concept about Elrond,as I said the only thing I tihnk he should have is his Foresgiht instead of giving Heroes XP but rather than tha I am with them all the way!
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 19:09
shouldn't a level 1 power remain a 'moderately weak' and basic power for all the duration of the game?
It isn't necessary, many heroes have some progress and we wanted something unique and iconic for him.

If it gets stronger and enhanced, wouldn't there be a risk of overpowering?
Logically there must be some normal values for damage ... and there won't be any crucial differences concerning damage while Elrond's leveling so definitely I am not afraid - single whirlwind created by normal hero may cause more balance problems on the battlefield. xD

it would be nonsense to claim playing a Tolkien game and giving foresight to Gildor but not to Elrond.
Just tell me:
1) Which ability has to be removed from Elrond in order to have foresight?
2) Which effect of foresight?
3) And what will be new ability for Gildor as a scout hero?
4) If you want Cirdan's ability (he reveals the whole map) - what will be his last ability for his unit support role?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 19:14
Cirdan could get a debuff ability. Give him something like elven mists which debuffs the damage done. It strengthens his connection to the sea, and Cirdan has a very powerful relationship with Ulmo. Alternatively, Cirdan was the foster-father of Gil-Galad, and it is likely that he would have also done a similar thing for Elrond and Elros. Why not give Cirdan the experience gift to heroes, Cirdan was the mentor for the elves as the eldest one on middle earth, Elrond was a mentor to men.

On the topic of which skill to replace on Elrond, replace the either the mount or the hero experience boost. If you are going with an experience boost aura, then having a direct increase of experience by active power would be redundant.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 19. Jul 2015, 19:23
I think he may lose the Hero XP Boost!As for what should his Forsight do,hmm may be you can use it on an Enemy Hero and see what he can or on Enemy Battalion!?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 19. Jul 2015, 19:23
Hmmm ... as for Gildor, I don't know if it would end up cool, but how about some spell that would remind of the journey to the West? In the LOTR movie I believe he is the guy who walks by Arwen's side before she decides to go back and stay.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 23:38
Cirdan could get a debuff ability. Give him something like elven mists which debuffs the damage done. 
But it's still elven mist which will be in the Lorien. It means that won't be unique for Cirdan, but mainly - he isn't debuffer or interferer (like Mouth of Sauron etc.) who weakens enemies, but he is unit supporter who supports them.

On the topic of which skill to replace on Elrond, replace the either the mount or the hero experience boost. If you are going with an experience boost aura, then having a direct increase of experience by active power would be redundant.
Active experience boost is for heroes vs passive leadership is for units.

I think he may lose the Hero XP Boost!
It's his iconic ability which definitely will stay. It's more accurate (Elrond's council, Elrond advice about everything). By the way - if he loses such ability his role of hero supporter will be disrupted (because there will remain only refresh ability for hero skill sets).

how about some spell that would remind of the journey to the West?
Perhaps some longer and picturesque stroll. xD
Really useful for scout hero. Seriously - "Journey to the West" references already has Cirdan in his skill.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 19. Jul 2015, 23:48
However Elrond isn't an exclusively hero-support. In fact, his old abilities make him a complete hybrid-hero (2 damage abilities, 1 hero-support-ability, 1 leadership and his refresh-spell (I don't know the english name, sorry), which supports heroes and troops (eventhough it benefits heroes much more)).
For now, I actually see Arwen as Imladris' hero-support, mainly because of her leadership, while Cirdan is Imladris' main-support for troops.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 20. Jul 2015, 00:01
I completely agree - second reason of this thread is also to deal with Elrond's role. xD
But I think that generally we can say that he is primarily hero support and secondarily unit support for faction (so mix of Arwen and Cirdan). Flood can be kind of support on the battlefield, because it isn't too strong and it has knockback effect (generally Elrond concept is support on the battlefield and not in the background). Only one problem which I can see is whirlwind because such kind of destructive spell is characteristic for mass slayers.
If whirlwind will be gone there will be only flood as a destructive ability - so it won't be crucial. Passive skill is not only support for units but it upgrades Elrond's armour as well.
So that restoration (or Vilya in our concept) and hero XP boost will be at least two skills for his hero support role, and rest of skills will be fragmented. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 20. Jul 2015, 00:35
just put a spell in the spellbook elrond s gift of foresight. and the effect should be revealing of the map there you go guys problem solved
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 20. Jul 2015, 02:45
You talk about water as the domain of Lorien. But consider who you are talking about, Cirdan is one of the Telri, he has a stronger connection to water than any of the elves in Middle Earth. To the point that Ulmo advises him as to massive changes that are coming, including the Ruin of Beriland.

Elrond's council is informed by his foresight. You cannot have one without the other. And it seems an absolute waste to dedicate two power slots to what are essentially the same. Merge them together and give him foresight in it's place.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 20. Jul 2015, 09:15
they should jusst make it a spell like saruman  seeing stone
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 21. Jul 2015, 07:05
But it is not a artifact like Saruman's Palantiar or Galadrial's mirror, it is a natural ability that is inherent to Elrond. Indeed it is more fitting that he have foresight than any other ability. This is like saying in a star wars game that the Emperor should not have force lightning, that it should instead be a faction power triggered from elsewhere.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 21. Jul 2015, 07:18
Cirdan is the most foresighted of all the Elves left in Middle-Earth, so I think it is more fitting that he has the power instead of Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jul 2015, 12:53
Cirdan is the most foresighted of all the Elves left in Middle-Earth, so I think it is more fitting that he has the power instead of Elrond.

True, he was the first one to recognise the true nature of the Wizards, just arrived in Middle Earth from beyond the Sea  :)
And the first one to understand the real value and status of Gandalf as the wisest and the destined-to-be chief of the Istari.
It is also stated and inferred, as I read somewhere, that the Palantír, the one kept by Círdan, is the only one capable of communicating with the Elves of Eressëa, who own as well a Palantír.

So, I think that this significant aspect of Imladris/Lindon/Grey Havens is already well implemented, and thus Elrond can focus mainly on his leader/commander/healer nature.

Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 21. Jul 2015, 13:24
agree
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 21. Jul 2015, 21:28
I think that we shouldn't speculate about foresight when we have clear statement from J.R.R. Tolkien:


So Cirdan should have the most powerful foresight ability. And that Gladys has better and clearer foresight ability than Elrond is quite obvious around all forums which I know - because she has her mirror, which supports her abilities, simply said.

And both implementations are (and will be) badass - Cirdan can reveal the whole map for some time and Gladys can reveal only parts of map, but permanently.
In both cases is the Team extremely lore accurate and personally I really like it. :) 

Yes Elrond has very powerful foresight ability, but definitely not as a Cirdan. And all heroes really can't have such ability - Celeborn deserves it too (and maybe Istari as well).

As I said - Gildor as a scout hero will have the same spell on level one like Gladys will have on level five (but in Gildor's case only for some time) and it fits for Imladris scout hero. Cirdan will be part of the faction as well.

So we should go away from foresight for Elrond because foresight is more or less support ability from the distance, but Elrond will be primarily Hero supporter and strong army leader on the battlefield.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jul 2015, 23:18

So we should go away from foresight for Elrond because foresight is more or less support ability from the distance, but Elrond will be primarily Hero supporter and strong army leader on the battlefield.


Yes, this is the crucial point  :)
Elrond's healing, magical and military abilities will be thus shown more appropriately and coherently, I think, without whirlwinds  :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 22. Jul 2015, 00:10
agree no whirlwinds for elrond  xD xD xD xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 22. Jul 2015, 18:20
But we also have clear statements from Tolkien about the depth of the foresight of Elrond. In the Fellowship of the ring, with respect to the depth of events, Gandalf describes the events to beyond even lord Elrond's ability to foresee. This indicates that it is powerful natural trait that is distinctive amongst even the wise. Considering Gandalf's tendency to respond to questions by talking about it being beyond the Wise in plural, it suggests then that by using Elrond as the limiting factor that his foresight is something significant even amongst the wise. If you need me to I can go through a copy of the Fellowship of the Ring to find you the exact quote, however, it is a limiting statement that relies on Elrond as an exemplar of the characteristic, which suggests that Elrond then is regarded among the wise as having a kinda special level of foresight. This is why it needs to be part of the character.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 22. Jul 2015, 21:54
Except Cìrdan is even MORE foresighted than Elrond so naturally the power belongs most appropriately with him rather than Elrond.   Also, it would be unwise and redundant to give the same power to both Elrond and Cìrdan
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jul 2015, 22:02
Except Cìrdan is even MORE foresighted than Elrond so naturally the power belongs most appropriately with him rather than Elrond.   Also, it would be unwise and redundant to give the same power to both Elrond and Cìrdan

Good point, I agree.
And Rivendell can also use the Palantír of Elostirion power of the Lindon watchtower, so it would be quite redundant giving the same ability to Elrond.

Elostirion is the tallest and westernmost tower of the Three White Towers  :)

 
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 22. Jul 2015, 22:08

When we are about that, people what are you think about this suggestion:
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31033.msg399396.html#msg399396  

Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jul 2015, 22:14
Good point, I agree.
And Rivendell can also use the Palantír of Elostirion power of the Lindon watchtower, so it would be quite redundant giving the same ability to Elrond.

Elostirion is the tallest and westernmost tower of the Three White Towers  :)

When we are about that, people what are you think about this suggestion:
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31033.msg399396.html#msg399396

Really great suggestion  :)
If you mention Valinor or Aman you always make me happy  :P

The Edain Team could also create an image of a bright Palantír surrounded with an intense radiant Light, since this Seeing Stone is the only one in Middle Earth that can communicate with the one of Eressëa.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 23. Jul 2015, 06:46
But we have it within the books themselves! I thought the Lord of the Rings should at least acknowledge the books with the same name? In those books it is said among the wise Elrond possesses a particularly special level of insight. But it seems that this forum is just a justification to remove parts of the character you find do not fit for gameplay reasons. If that is your belief make the argument. Otherwise stop trying to use the lore to tangle itself, it is ultimately inconclusive as the lore of the books also says that Cirdan has more or less given up on Middle Earth and simply waits at the havens for the Elves to depart.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 23. Jul 2015, 07:35
Tolkien EXPLICITLY said that Cìrdan is the most foresighted of all the elves in Middle Earth, even listing Galadriel and Elrond by name.  Edain draws upon lore from the entirety of Tolkien's legendarium, not just LOTR and the Hobbit.  Yes, most of us think, from a gameplay perspective, that Elronds role within the faction does not fit well with foresight, but that is half of the argument.  We are not tangling the lore, and an explicit statement is extremely conclusive. 

The lore supports The argument that Cìrdan should have foresight.  Foresight also suits Cìrdan's role within the faction from a gameplay perspective as well, though that argument has already been made and I won't repeat it here.

So please, don't be rude just because we disagree with you.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 23. Jul 2015, 10:03
Because this isn't part of this thread, this is last my comment about it.
Do you think we need new topic about this "palantir look" or not? Maybe to sum all ideas about it?  ;)  New topic under "Gondor suggestions"?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 23. Jul 2015, 11:06
But Tolkien's lore is a contradictory and evolving substance. For instance, there remains some debate as to whether Elrond was an Elf Lord, based on the fact that typically Tolkien does not directly refer to him as such. In the hobbit for instance he is called as fair in face as an Elf Lord, as wise as a wizard, and as resolute as a king of Dwarves. Likewise, when the council of Elrond discusses Elf-Lords it notes Glorfidel and excludes Elrond. There is a confusion in Tolkien's writings prior to 1948 as to whether Elrond of Rivendell and Elrond son of Earendil are one and the same. Likewise, there is a similar problem with respect to Glorfidel's return, whether he returned in the third age with the Istari, whether he came in the Second to aid in the resistance to Sauron or even whether he was a different elf entirely. The point that I am trying to make here, is that the legendarium is itself confused and contradictory, especially in the material published by Christopher Tolkien. If we are going to use the lore, it should surely stand that the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy must hold a higher weighting factor in a practical sense, to enable the management of these contradictory and confusing stories. I was not being rude as you say, merely exasperated, I would like a consistent point of argument, not this jumping around between gameplay and lore. I am an academic by profession, it is impossible to argue without agreeing a proper frame of reference, and we have lacked this almost the entire way through. So thus to reiterate. From the Lord of the Rings we have a direct statement inferring a special level of foresight. In the Hobbit we have a direct statement with respect to the validity of the advice of Elrond with respect to future action. These taken together infer a peculiar ability to divine what will occur. The movies themselves go much further as to visually represent Elrond as possessing full blown waking prophetic vision. These arguments taken together strongly suggest that the power of foresight is an ability or quality that is innate to the identity of the character. Now, gameplay-wise their is an argument that it is unnecessary as their are others means to access the ability. This is something that is an entirely different discussion. I would suggest removing one of those other sources in favour of giving it to a character who in the Hobbit preforms a role in which one of the primary purposes of his character is to provide a level of insight and guidance to future action.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jul 2015, 15:24

Really great suggestion  :)
If you mention Valinor or Aman you always make me happy  :P

The Edain Team could also create an image of a bright Palantír surrounded with an intense radiant Light, since this Seeing Stone is the only one in Middle Earth that can communicate with the one of Eressëa.
Because this isn't part of this thread, this is last my comment about it.
Do you think we need new topic about this "palantir look" or not? Maybe to sum all ideas about it?  ;)  New topic under "Gondor suggestions"?

Ok, I support this idea :)


Now, gameplay-wise their is an argument that it is unnecessary as their are others means to access the ability. This is something that is an entirely different discussion. I would suggest removing one of those other sources in favour of giving it to a character who in the Hobbit preforms a role in which one of the primary purposes of his character is to provide a level of insight and guidance to future action.

There would be so much to write about Tolkien and contradictions, obviously in a positive way; but this is not the right place.
Now we are focusing on Elrond as a character, but, most importantly, as a hero of the Edain Mod, and this aspect makes the gameplay issues fundamental as well.

It is well known that Elrond has the ability of Foresight, and it is totally acceptable.
But, since Rivendell will implement the aspect of Foresight already in three different manners (Círdan's Omniscience, Palantír of Elostirion in the Lindon watchtower and Gildor's Vision), and since the role of Elrond (Hero and Unit Supporter) as the leader of the faction is greater than the other heroes', I would say that it would be a bit unnecessary and redundant adding another foresight power to Elrond; even though we know for sure that he has that precise capability.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 23. Jul 2015, 18:12
Regarding the portrayal of Elrond in the Hobbit, I would say that the LotR and appendices hold more weight as far as the nature of Elrond than the Hobbit, as Tolkien wanted to re-write the Hobbit to mesh it better with LotR.

I'm curious, has anyone heard of the Tolkien professor?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 23. Jul 2015, 22:09
Well,

because I want to have compromise suggestion as usual, so I added some about foresight for his pasive skill. :P


... but main thing for today:

I've finished some analysis concerning ability to ride a horse for heroes in correlation with cavalry units throughout all factions.
I think that after read it you will change point of view concerning Elrond and horse.

Firstly I've checked good factions:

Rohan is the best cavalry factions from the good factions and even in the whole game.
They have five different cavalry units and six "horse heroes" (all heroes except of Merry).

Imladris is the second best cavalry units in the game.
They have two cavalry units in the fortress but they have only two horse heroes (Arwen and Glorfindel).

Gondor is the third - yes, they have two cavalry units as well, but one of them is not from the beginning but you can find them on the outpost, so it is little bit disadvantage, but in Gondor case - we can find there four heroes who are able to ride a horse (Gandy, Aragorn, Imrahil and Faramir).

Dwarves and Lorien have the same position. One cavalry unit and one hero with some pet (Dain and Thranduil).

Evil factions:
The best cavalry factions for evil is definitely Mordor - four ringwraiths and Gothmog with Mouth of Sauron ... so overall six heroes, but find cavalry units as a permanent unit is quite problematic. Morgul riders are limited, five ringwraiths is different story so that only Haradrim riders we have to take into account.

As a second will be Misty Mountains - one cavalry unit but two heroes (Azog and Yazneg).

Isengard - one cavalry unit with Sharku.

And the same case is Angmar with one cavalry unit and we can't forget on Witch king.

I have to say that I didn't work with beast units as Wargs without riders, Mumakils, bears etc. and witch elite cavalry units as well. I don't know if they really work as a cavalry and mainly criterium for cavarly was that there has to be at least rider and that such cavalry must be permanent.

Conclusions:
Imladris is extremely undervalued - in comparison with Gondor there should be at least four heroes with ability ride a horse.
And overall only three elves in the whole game have such possibility.

So Elrond with horse really can solve this issue. xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 23. Jul 2015, 23:01
the heroes of imladris who are they elrond i know glofinder arwen cirdan and i dont remember the others
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 23. Jul 2015, 23:26
Gildor, Elladan & Elrohir, and Erestor.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jul 2015, 23:50

Exact and, as always, very detailed analysis, Tiberius  8-)
I'll try to 'expand' it a bit with another interesting fact  :)

In every faction, almost all the commanders (not necessarily ring heroes)/leaders have a mount: Aragorn, Théoden, Witch-king, Azog/Defiler, Thranduil, Dáin.
And they have a mount because it's another important trait of their MILITARY POWER and ABILITY.
Galadriel, Saruman and Sauron are the only leaders who don't need a mount, because they primarily and mainly use MAGIC.

Said that, and knowing that Elrond has far greater military skills than any other human commander or king, why shouldn't he have a mount?

#ahorseforElrond  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 24. Jul 2015, 00:22
Spending precious one slot for the horse is a bad idea. I speak but to remove the possibility of Aragorn ride. Horse - this is not a distinctive feature of these heroes.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 00:32
Gildor, Elladan & Elrohir, and Erestor.
and what about this guy ???(http://s11.postimg.org/o6t2tv8pv/erestor.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 24. Jul 2015, 03:03
Ohh well, he is Lindir, greatest ring heroe save Sauron himself!

Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 04:04
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jul 2015, 12:04
I would say that Lindir was a quite nice and enjoyable non canon addition from PJ, but, as for Alfrid and Hilda, he will probably have no space in the Edain Mod.
Even though it would be interesting if they used his face as the icon picture of other heroes of Imladris, Erestor for example  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 13:29
well i think Lindir is  an interesting character
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 24. Jul 2015, 16:45
In every faction, almost all the commanders (not necessarily ring heroes)/leaders have a mount: Aragorn, Théoden, Witch-king, Azog/Defiler, Thranduil, Dáin.
And they have a mount because it's another important trait of their MILITARY POWER and ABILITY.
Exactly. And all heroes from your list also can ride a horse in the movies.

Galadriel, Saruman and Sauron are the only leaders who don't need a mount, because they primarily and mainly use MAGIC.
Yes, we know that she was able to ride to and from Minas Tirith, but that's all, but mainly - she didn't ride a horse in the movies and for her concept/animation it doesn't fit. Saruman is great example, in addition - Isengard isn't cavalry faction and Necromancer/Sauron with a horse ...  xD ... there is Witch king ... and Khamul ... etc.
As you said - they are "magic leaders" and not military leaders.

Spending precious one slot for the horse is a bad idea. I speak but to remove the possibility of Aragorn ride. Horse - this is not a distinctive feature of these heroes.
Aragorn and Elrond are two of the most useful heroes in the game (Aragorn is currently the strongest hero killer and Elrond will be very strong hero/unit supporter on the battlefield.) Horse isn't only additional thing for characters, but also a way how to nerf them - Aragorn has many variations throughout his path and if you will check my proposal for Elrond closely, you will find that I want for him spell, which is available from the beginning and is still stronger - throughout leveling. So yes, one slot will have a horse, but theoretically he will get new four slots which are implemented to the one slot.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 24. Jul 2015, 17:02
I would say that Lindir was a quite nice and enjoyable non canon addition from PJ, but, as for Alfrid and Hilda, he will probably have no space in the Edain Mod.
Even though it would be interesting if they used his face as the icon picture of other heroes of Imladris, Erestor for example  :)

While we're at it, we need to change Gildor's palantir picture: he really looks like an idiot.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 24. Jul 2015, 17:38
While we're at it, we need to change Gildor's palantir picture: he really looks like an idiot.

Looks like an idiot? unless he has been greatly improved I'd say he IS an idiot haha
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jul 2015, 17:43
While we're at it, we need to change Gildor's palantir picture: he really looks like an idiot.

Looks like an idiot? unless he has been greatly improved I'd say he IS an idiot haha

Do not insult our allies, Haldir of Lórien, this is an order from your Lady  xD 8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 24. Jul 2015, 18:16
Do not insult our allies, Haldir of Lórien, this is an order from your Lady  xD 8-)

I do what I want, even Tolkien can't tell me what to do!
Gildor for most useless hero 2015! :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 20:43
i heard the name Gildor Inglorion i know he helped frodo and sam but i dont think he should be in the game
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 25. Jul 2015, 06:07

It is well known that Elrond has the ability of Foresight, and it is totally acceptable.
But, since Rivendell will implement the aspect of Foresight already in three different manners (Círdan's Omniscience, Palantír of Elostirion in the Lindon watchtower and Gildor's Vision), and since the role of Elrond (Hero and Unit Supporter) as the leader of the faction is greater than the other heroes', I would say that it would be a bit unnecessary and redundant adding another foresight power to Elrond; even though we know for sure that he has that precise capability.

See, this is what bothers me. The quality was a part of his nature, arguably a legacy from Melian, at least in respect to it's power. For it to be taken from the character when it is a consequence of him being a blending of the three kin of elves, and the three races of the edain and with his Maiar blood seems to me deficient in reasoning. Take the power from elsewhere would be my preference, and ditch the horse, or alternatively one of the experience giving powers. I am not contesting that Rivendell has an abundance of map revealing powers, I accept that, however, I do think that taking the power from Elrond is not a good thing. It would be like trying to say that Galadrial should not have foresight because the mirror of Galadrial, the primary mechanism for her divination is an artifact and could be better represented by a constructed building.

I also question as to whether Cirdan should be a hero at all to be honest. He does not take part in the war of the ring, and instead stands to hold the Havens to ensure that the elves who seek to leave Middle Earth do not lose that option.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jul 2015, 22:45

See, this is what bothers me. The quality was a part of his nature, arguably a legacy from Melian, at least in respect to it's power. For it to be taken from the character when it is a consequence of him being a blending of the three kin of elves, and the three races of the edain and with his Maiar blood seems to me deficient in reasoning. Take the power from elsewhere would be my preference, and ditch the horse, or alternatively one of the experience giving powers. I am not contesting that Rivendell has an abundance of map revealing powers, I accept that, however, I do think that taking the power from Elrond is not a good thing. It would be like trying to say that Galadrial should not have foresight because the mirror of Galadrial, the primary mechanism for her divination is an artifact and could be better represented by a constructed building.

I also question as to whether Cirdan should be a hero at all to be honest. He does not take part in the war of the ring, and instead stands to hold the Havens to ensure that the elves who seek to leave Middle Earth do not lose that option.

The lore is a fundamental part of the Edain Mod, but must be used carefully and in the right 'quantity', because we are talking about a game, in which every faction (being them Humans, Elves or Orcs) must have the same chances to compete with the others and win.

The example of Lothlórien that you mentioned is quite significant; Galadriel must have a foresight ability, because none apart from her has it, and in fact she will have the most powerful and useful foresight ability in the Edain Mod.
Rivendell, instead, has already three different and effective types of map revealing abilities; given this fact, and given also that Elrond is not a scout or an agile hero, I would say that it would be better conveying his abilities as Hero/Unit Supporter to types of powers more useful on the battlefield.

The presence of Círdan in the Edain Mod is unquestionable, because even Elrond and other LOTR or The Hobbit characters weren't directly involved in the War of the Ring, but they are crucial heroes for their own factions.
Círdan is also the former keeper of Narya (the actual keeper in the Edain Mod) and, together with Galadriel and Celeborn, is one of the oldest Elves still living in Middle Earth, since he was born in Beleriand during the Years of the Trees  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 25. Jul 2015, 23:56
I would rather see Rivendell lose all other sources of Foresight than see Elrond lose it, because it is my view such a crucial part of the Character.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 26. Jul 2015, 00:21
But Foresight fits more appropriately with Cirdan,  so it will stay with him.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 26. Jul 2015, 00:35
but TiberiusOgden said elrond has some kind of foresight
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Jul 2015, 14:06
Well since Cirdan is stated by Tolkien himself to ahve may be the greatest foresight from all  it should stay with him!While the Hero XP Buff that was suggested will represent Elrond using his Foresight to aid his Allied Heroes for the upcoming struggles and thus increasing their XP!We just should think of his XP Buff as presentation of how he uses his Foresight!? :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jul 2015, 14:16
Well since Cirdan is stated by Tolkien himself to ahve may be the greatest foresight from all  it should stay with him!While the Hero XP Buff that was suggested will represent Elrond using his Foresight to aid his Allied Heroes for the upcoming struggles and thus increasing their XP!We just should think of his XP Buff as presentation of how he uses his Foresight!? :)

I completely agree, every aspect of Elrond would be wisely integrated.
And I'm glad that you're back, Dáin  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Jul 2015, 14:48
I think this is the best way to implemend his Foresight without Cirdan losing his own or have Heroes with same Powers! :)
I will always be here,just mroe quiet and so active my friend! :) And thank you! :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 27. Jul 2015, 19:22
According to my Modding - union progress, it seems that currently I am "Elronds Berater" (Elrond's adviser)  ... it quite fits. xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jul 2015, 19:30
According to my Modding - union progress, it seems that currently I am "Elronds Berater" (Elrond's adviser)  ... it quite fits. xD
My caongratulations mate! :) It really fits you! :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jul 2015, 20:43
According to my Modding - union progress, it seems that currently I am "Elronds Berater" (Elrond's adviser)  ... it quite fits. xD
My caongratulations mate! :) It really fits you! :)

It's true :)
And I am an Elven Pilgrim, a Pilgrim headed to Aman I hope  :)
Titel: Elven rings of power
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 2. Aug 2015, 20:03
I am just thinking openly ... about three elven rings, we have nice indications concerning Narya:
Zitat
It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, as well as (in common with the other Three Rings) hiding the wielder from remote observation (except by the wielder of the One) and giving resistance to the weariness of time:

"Take this ring, master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."
― Círdan the Shipwright

And concerning Nenya as well:
Zitat
Nenya's power was preservation, protection, and concealment from evil.
or
Zitat
The power of this Ring strengthened and beautified the realm of Lothlórien
etc.

We have already stated in this thread that we really like Edain implementation of that rings (Narya provides strong supports and Nenya provides massive protection).

But we have no information concerning Vilya and effect of that ring.
So we should build on this and general sentence?
Zitat
They were forged by Celebrimbor and his smiths with the desire of "understanding, making, and healing" and granted the power to preserve all things unstained.

I've already implemented Vilya as a ring of recovering/healing into my proposal, but maybe we should work with words "understanding" and "making" as well. What do you think? :)

Sources: Simarillion and Tolkien Gateway.net
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Aug 2015, 21:02
Logical analysis  :)

Vilya is the strongest of the Three, and it generally sums up all the shared elements and characteristics of these Rings of Power, completely untainted from the evil influence of Sauron; the common elements are, of course, their focus on healing and preserving in many different ways, that depend on whom wields them and how it does it  :)


Narya preserves the Hope and the Will of Freedom against any form of tyranny, Nenya the Joy, the Bliss and the Timeless Atmosphere of the place in which it is kept.
Vilya has a similar power to Nenya, resembling the Splendour of Eressëa or even Valinor itself, as if Rivendell were a 'mortal reflection' of the Undying Lands; and Vilya, most importantly, is kept by Elrond, who is arguably the best Healer of Middle Earth.
Elrond's powers are mainly focused on healing and recovering, and that's why I totally prefer and support a display of this kind of Vilya, rather than a problematic destructive power as it is the whirlwind; destructive potential that Elrond can already use via his Flood power, totally covered by the lore, by the way  :)

Also, I would add another significant passage about Nenya  ;)
These are the exact words of Galadriel to Frodo in FOTR (book).

Zitat
`I know what it was that you last saw,' she said; `for that is also in my mind. Do not be afraid! But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlórien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed! '

Zitat
`Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
`He suspects, but he does not know - not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'

The powers of Nenya involve kilometres of lands and hundreds of years, and the Ring of Adamant is clearly also the source of the military and magical Protection of the Golden Wood by the malicious influence of Sauron.
Galadriel admits it, the chants among the trees and the bows of the brave people of her realm are not enough to resist; the effects of Nenya are mainly physical, focused on the physical environment and realm of Lothlórien (greatest definition of Magic in Tolkien), as Galadriel's Magic modifies and manipulates the surrounding Weather, creating an unnatural Calmness in a dark and dangerous territory (Southern Mirkwood).

And we surely know that Galadriel likes creating Whirlwinds/Storms and magical Mists, while Elrond prefers the Water  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 2. Aug 2015, 21:13
Galadriel likes creating Whirlwinds/Storms and magical Mists, while Elrond prefers the Water
I always thought that they should change their rings.
Because in Tolkien world Elrond controls water (Bruinen) and Galadriel air (Mist/Whirlwind). But maybe due to balance ... xD each of them has the opposite effect, otherwise would be OP, because rings of elements would support their natural skills.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Darkslayer am 3. Aug 2015, 20:03
Galadriel likes creating Whirlwinds/Storms and magical Mists, while Elrond prefers the Water
I always thought that they should change their rings.
Because in Tolkien world Elrond controls water (Bruinen) and Galadriel air (Mist/Whirlwind). But maybe due to balance ... xD each of them has the opposite effect, otherwise would be OP, because rings of elements would support their natural skills.
And Cirdan seemed quiet to me, so he gets the Fire Ring Narya to help with leadership. Great theory, I like it! Although, it should be remembered that Vilya and Narya were both initially given to Gil-galad. Myabe he was shy and strong with water as well? :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 3. Aug 2015, 20:16
pout a spell the change of the rings to make them more powerfull   :P  xD :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 4. Aug 2015, 19:04
By the way - this thread is one of the longest threads around English forum. :o :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 4. Aug 2015, 19:14
thats nice
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Aug 2015, 20:39
By the way - this thread is one of the longest threads around English forum. :o :P

It seems that Elrond attracts a lot of interest around here  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 8. Aug 2015, 22:12
Maybe horse can be from the beginning (level one) and "water horses" at level seven, but logically more effective (causing more damage etc.) ...
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 8. Aug 2015, 22:42
I have vision of skill, that Elrond could have.
It could be called "Noldor wisdom" and, for some time, will shortened cooldown of all heroes/units abilities and spells.
What do you think?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Aug 2015, 22:56
I have vision of skill, that Elrond could have.
It could be called "Noldor wisdom" and, for some time, will shortened cooldown of all heroes/units abilities and spells.
What do you think?

I don't like this idea so much.
If you check the other posts, you will see how we came out with deciding not to give Elrond any other ability that involves his Foresight or Wisdom, also because he already is capable of giving heroes a bit of experience via his Wisdom  :)

Furthermore, I never regarded Elrond's Wisdom as a possible means to harm or telepathically blind the enemies.
It's Galadriel who is constantly under the telepathic 'assaults' of Sauron, and then blocks them and reveals his evil plans  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 8. Aug 2015, 23:03
Oh right then! It was just proposal. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 8. Aug 2015, 23:20
i think Tiberius said elrond has some kind of Foresight its like a passive it gives more exp because of his Foresight or something like that
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 13:49
i think Tiberius said elrond has some kind of Foresight its like a passive it gives more exp because of his Foresight or something like that

Elrond, according to this thread's proposal, will be able to give a small amount of experience to a single hero via his advices and Wisdom, and, with the passive bonus of his Noldorin Armour, fasten the gathering of experience of the surrounding units; his Foresight is not involved at all, at least for what concerns the gameplay (map-revealing abilities).
I think it is not necessary giving Elrond a further Foresight-related power, since this aspect is already well implemented in Rivendell (Gildor's Vision, Círdan's Omniscience and the Palantír of Elostirion)  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 9. Aug 2015, 15:17
i think Tiberius said elrond has some kind of Foresight its like a passive it gives more exp because of his Foresight or something like that

Elrond, according to this thread's proposal, will be able to give a small amount of experience to a single hero via his advices and Wisdom, and, with the passive bonus of his Noldorin Armour, fasten the gathering of experience of the surrounding units; his Foresight is not involved at all, at least for what concerns the gameplay (map-revealing abilities).
I think it is not necessary giving Elrond a further Foresight-related power, since this aspect is already well implemented in Rivendell (Gildor's Vision, Círdan's Omniscience and the Palantír of Elostirion)  :)
you agree with you mate but i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 9. Aug 2015, 15:39
i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight

I've implemented it to its armour. It doesn't matter, it's only reference.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 9. Aug 2015, 20:24
i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight

I've implemented it to its armour. It doesn't matter, it's only reference.

still he can see in the future its ok for me
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 20:28
i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight

I've implemented it to its armour. It doesn't matter, it's only reference.

still he can see in the future its ok for me

I'm happy for you, but the still-remaining issue of map revealing powers/functions of Rivendell is still relevant and present  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 9. Aug 2015, 20:47
but the still-remaining issue of map revealing powers/functions of Rivendell is still relevant and present  :)
Yes,
Imladris will have the best scouting options through spells - There is Cirdan, Palantir and mainly scout hero from the beginning. And everyone can reveal the map.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 21:52
but the still-remaining issue of map revealing powers/functions of Rivendell is still relevant and present  :)
Yes,
Imladris will have the best scouting options through spells - There is Cirdan, Palantir and mainly scout hero from the beginning. And everyone can reveal the map.

That's why one of the central pillars of this proposal is focusing on Elrond's abilities with horses and floods  :)
And, most importantly, giving Vilya a definitely more conceptual and lore accurate power  ;)

NENYA: Ultimate Protection (units/heroes + structures)  8-)
VILYA: Ultimate Healing (fully healing and restoring of yours and friendly units)  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tienety am 25. Aug 2015, 10:08
i have small idea for Erond, maybe He can change his armors with stances system:

Aggreissve Stance: Elrond has robe. He gets +25% attack speed and -25% armor

Normal Stance: Elrond has light armor. No bonus or negative effects

Defensive stance: Elrond has heavy armor. He gets +25% armor and -25% attack speed.
He has a lot of different armors/robes in the movies. In addition, all three armor are already in the mod.

What do you think about this? 8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gimilzar am 25. Aug 2015, 12:54
A stance system for Elrond? Just like Thranduil's Weapon Stance?
And 3 different Armors on top of that? I dont think that will fit with Elrond. He might be a Warrior and a Loremaster of Imladris after all but seriously I dont think this would benefit him.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 25. Aug 2015, 14:35
awesome idea
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 15:20

Tienety, although I admit that I would really like to see unique and characteristic stances systems for every Leader/Ring Hero of each faction, I must say that I'm not really convinced by this proposal, as, I think, this type of armours should reasonably be available at higher levels than level 1; and Ealendril has already been clear about this matter, they currently have no interest in creating another armour for Elrond.

I thus think we should focus, for now, on the other interesting elements and ideas (despite Tiberius' love for Elrond's Golden Armour  :D) that we have come out with, like the Mount and a different display of Vilya, more in line with the Three Rings' nature and definitely more lore accurate  :)

A stance system for Elrond? Just like Thranduil's Weapon Stance?
And 3 different Armors on top of that? I dont think that will fit with Elrond. He might be a Warrior and a Loremaster of Imladris after all but seriously I dont think this would benefit him.

Having said these things, what do you think, instead, about a possible Mount for Elrond (in line with his role of a commander and leader) and, most importantly, about the different display of Vilya's powers?

Vilya would represent the Ultimate Healing (Elrond's and Rivendell's healing characteristics), as currently Nenya represents the Ultimate Protection.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 25. Aug 2015, 15:26
Not sure why Elrond would need a mount since Imladris already has two heroes who have one (Glorfindel and Arwen).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 15:37
Not sure why Elrond would need a mount since Imladris already has two heroes who have one (Glorfindel and Arwen).

Given that Imladris will have powerful and characteristic cavalry units, why shouldn't Elrond have a Mount?
He is the Leader of his faction, he has a higher 'role' and overall importance than Glorfindel and Arwen, and his role as an Unit Supporter Hero (commander/general) would make a Mount easily and rightly legitimate (as Théoden, Dáin,...).

Also, in AUJ, we saw him leading his knights in the patrol of Rivendell's borders.
I know that it's not a fundamental reason, but I have to say that I really liked to see Elrond still 'active' in the defence of his realm/shelter, despite what one could think after the fading of the Noldor's power in Middle Earth after the Second Age  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 15:41
Don't mind me wrong, but why should that be obstacle in this case? Rivendell is after Rohan second mightiest cavalry faction, that is enough reason for main hero to have mount ability. :)
Also it is little strange that Arwen mount is in general based on wrong interpretaion from Lotr movie. :)
 
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 25. Aug 2015, 16:02
i agree ARWEN she shouldn't be there riding a horse god damit i wanted to see GLORFINDEL GOD DAMIT!!!!
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 25. Aug 2015, 17:15
Yes, in my opinion Elrond should have a horse and Arwen shouldn't. He was ruler and main commander of Rivendell's troops, and he propably defended borders of his realm by his own (he let his sons to skating on thin ice and allows them to travelling around Middle-Earth, so he was most propably doing same thing and fight along with his mens with orcs/goblins/trolls etc if they get close to the borders or cross it.
And it's obvious that if you see intruder in your house, you want to get rid of him as soon as possible. So he wasn't do this on foot, but on horse. And AUJ showed it perfectly.

And about stances system for him - I'd like to see it too, but I'm afraid, it's too many work for ET, so if they won't include it, I'll live. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 17:40
Yes, in my opinion Elrond should have a horse and Arwen shouldn't.


I don't have any problem with Arwen having her own mount, since this is the LOTR trilogy's adaptation of Arwen, and the Edain Mod is rightly based on it.

I just think that it could be perfectly possible to give a horse even to Elrond, without utterly upsetting the general foundations of Rivendell as a faction.
As CragLord reminded, Rivendell will be the most powerful cavalry-focused faction after Rohan; I thus wouldn't find it so strange if it had three heroes with a mount (of which one is the Leader).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 17:54
Me either, just it is stupid reason as I said indirectly that Arwen have mount which is based on movie not on lore facts (ofc you know that Arwen used in that scene Glorfindel role), so because of that Erlond shouldn't have mount, no logic. :)
Elrond have advantage in integration of mount ability in comparation with Arwen. That is my point. :) 3 mount heroes isn't too much.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 25. Aug 2015, 17:59
Well... i don't mind that Arwen can mount a horse too. After all, she has to get into Minas Tirith somehow, after the war. And I bet, she didn't done it on her own foot. :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 25. Aug 2015, 18:02
I like Elrond in his current implementation and would find it sad to see one of his great current abilites to be removed in order to free the slot for a boring mount toggle. Also, I disagree with Imladris being a cavalry focused faction - they have only two cavalry units (lancers and windriders), while gondor also has two and mordor even has three (haradrim, nazgul and the mûmakîl). Imladris is about elite units across the board and small numbers while having access to advanced technologies (they can upgrade armour, blades and arrows twice instead of once).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 18:09
I am sorry, but it would be nice if you can make list of current/old abilities of Elrond.
I haven't played 3.8.1, so I am not familiar with them. I only express my opinion about mount ability in general. Fine, it would be nice in term of proper discussion if you can make that list. :)
P.S. Also can't read whole topic again. :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 18:18
I like Elrond in his current implementation and would find it sad to see one of his great current abilites to be removed in order to free the slot for a boring mount toggle. Also, I disagree with Imladris being a cavalry focused faction - they have only two cavalry units (lancers and windriders), while gondor also has two and mordor even has three (haradrim, nazgul and the mûmakîl). Imladris is about elite units across the board and small numbers while having access to advanced technologies (they can upgrade armour, blades and arrows twice instead of once).

I in fact think that, given Rivendell's 'advanced technologies' and superior units-supporting elements (via spells or heroes' powers), its cavalry units are overall more effective.
But it's obviously just my opinion.

As I also think that the display of Vilya's powers as a whirlwind is not lore accurate (given the Three Rings' nature) and 'fair' towards Elrond's own magical abilities related mainly to healing.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 25. Aug 2015, 18:20
Zitat
Rivendell will be the most powerful cavalry-focused faction after Rohan
Well, then it seems that there is something wrong with Imladris. This faction should be definitly one of the best infantry based faction at all, but with very little focus on cavalry.
We dont have problems with some minor changes up to Elrond, but keep this fact in mind. I think we have to change something about the windriders, there wasnt any intention that Rivendell is considered as a cavalry faction.

Zitat
And AUJ showed it perfectly.
This is absolutely not an argument for me.  ;) Actually that is more a counter-argument for me. [ugly]

It would be nice, if you collect your ideas to form an overall concept for Elrond. It is a little bit tiring to read through 5 pages. Thx.  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 18:24

It would be nice, if you collect your ideas to form an overall concept for Elrond. It is a little bit tiring to read through 5 pages. Thx.  :)

If you check the first page, Tiberius has already done it  :)
There is everything: mount, Foresight and Vilya's display as Ultimate Healing and Restoration  ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 25. Aug 2015, 18:24
Ah, see. My bad.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 25. Aug 2015, 18:26
Fine, it would be nice in term of proper discussion if you can make that list. :)

Sure thing.

Level 1: Fury of the Loudwater: An aera-of-effect spell, sort of similar to Gandalf's Wizard Blast but ground targeted instead of unit targeted (you select an area on the ground instead of selecting a target unit or hero). Has the water horses effect from the film.

Level 3: Elrond's Council: Target hero gains a big chunk of experience.

Level 5: Armaments of Days Past: Elrond gets his armour from the Last Alliance (which buffs him with +25% armour and gives him a leadership passive ability that grants +25% armour and +25% XP gain to nearby units)

Level 7: Restoration. The ultimate healing spell, unchanged from bfme2 I think, but also affects units. (Target units and heroes are fully healed and have their ability cooldowns reset)

Level 10: Vilya, the Ring of Air. The tornado (which I am OK with - it's the Ring of Air after all).


These are his abilities as if now if they have not been changed since I was last able to play as Imladris, and I think they are very well chosen.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 25. Aug 2015, 18:29
Zitat
Rivendell will be the most powerful cavalry-focused faction after Rohan
Just a small question... I can't remember that anyone of the team said that Imladris will have a focus on cavalry. Where exactly do you take this assumption from?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 18:50
Sorry, I just followed main idea from this topic, and that was removing of Tornado.
Ofc that Tornado is better than mount, Tiberius and Walk expressed here idea about removing that abilty and they tried to explain whole idea in detail. I am just person who supports that idea. In main comment from Tiberius, all is described.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 19:14
Just a small question... I can't remember that anyone of the team said that Imladris will have a focus on cavalry. Where exactly do you take this assumption from?


I'm sorry, I probably forgot to add, at the end of that sentence, that it was only a consideration of mine (and that I basically meant that Rivendell will have very powerful cavalry units), but I can assure that I have always done it concerning the other posts of this long (very long) but enjoying discussion (as I previously replied to Fine).
I believe, and always experienced, that, due to the Rivendell's qualities and characteristics (via its supporting spells, upgrades and heroes' powers), the cavalry units of this faction are, or, better, have a great chance to be really effective and useful, ending up being superior to what Mordor or Gondor could ever display with their own cavalry units.

Also, I always recognised the fact that, among the other factions of the game (but, in this case, especially among the Good Factions) Rohan is objectively the only really cavalry-related faction; so, it was thus a kind of subtle comparison between Rivendell and Gondor, concerning cavalry units.
A comparison in which I always found Rivendell the superior one, (according to my personal experience).

I'm surely aware that we could also say that this could mainly depend on one's own strategy and choices with a certain faction, but I always had this precise impression.
I also explained why, though, given that Rivendell won't certainly be superior to Rohan, concerning cavalry units, a mount for Elrond wouldn't utterly upset the fundamental and basic structure of his faction.

I reckon I may have used a word ('cavalry-related') not so properly, since I just wanted to mean 'very powerful concerning cavalry units'.
I maybe should have expressed myself better  :)

This is absolutely not an argument for me.  ;) Actually that is more a counter-argument for me. [ugly]


I don't know why, but I kind of imagined it  :)
But, as you may have noticed, I also tried to give a lore-atmosphere explanation  ;)

Level 10: Vilya, the Ring of Air. The tornado (which I am OK with - it's the Ring of Air after all).


I respect your opinions, but I totally don't like this display of Vilya  :)
There is no movie adaptation involved here.
I totally find it not lore accurate, not even closed to.

The titles of the Three Rings ('Ring of Air', 'Ring of Water' and 'Ring of Fire') mainly refer to the main Elements of Arda themselves, the Elements which it was created with (and they also indicate that the 'authority' of the Ring of Air is superior to the others', as Manwë, Lord of the Air, is superior in authority to the other Valar).
They have, though, almost no direct reference to the very powers of these very particular Rings (Galadriel in fact is clearly shown being herself more capable of manipulating meteorological phenomena as Storms than Elrond).
The Three Rings (especially Vilya and Nenya) have absolutely no destructive powers, as they 'only' focus on the Protection and conservation of the places in which they are kept, slowing the flow of Time, and resemble thus the Splendour of Eressëa or Valinor itself (always as a mortal reflection, of course).

I thus sincerely think that the powers of Vilya should be displayed as the actual Ultimate Restoration power of Elrond, to be definitely more in line with his Ring's nature and his own abilities' one as a sensational Healer.

Vilya would thus represent the most powerful form of Healing/Restoring ability in the game, as Nenya currently represents the most powerful form of Protection.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 3. Sep 2015, 22:05
would find it sad to see one of his great current abilites to be removed in order to free the slot for a boring mount toggle.
Just try to read the whole discussion, or at least the first page. ;)

they have only two cavalry units (lancers and windriders)
Only? xD

mordor even has three (haradrim, nazgul and the mûmakîl)
Haradrim riders, ringwraiths and ... mumakil? Mumakil is standard cavalry? :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 13:42
When Imladris is released, what will be Elrond's starting model?
Will it be possible for Elrond's starting model to be in one of his robes (for example, like this: http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac50/NarahElfaer/Elrond.jpg)?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Sep 2015, 14:31
When Imladris is released, what will be Elrond's starting model?
Will it be possible for Elrond's starting model to be in one of his robes (for example, like this: http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac50/NarahElfaer/Elrond.jpg)?


If nothing has been changed about this matter, Elrond will have his Elven robes of FOTR until level 4  :)


Then, he will achieve his Noldorin armour on level 5, along with his Leadership.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fredius am 7. Sep 2015, 15:00
In case you don't know, this is the armor he gets at level 5:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1#imagebox
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 15:02
That's great, thanks for the info DieWalküre :)
Also, I know about his armor from the Hobbit - I really like it. It looks a bit like his Dol Guldur armor, even if it's from AUJ  ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Sep 2015, 15:05
well i love his  golden armor botfa and i like to have a mount toggle for elrond
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 15:48
Well, I also really like Elrond's armor from Dol Guldur and would like to see it in Edain, but Elrond's current armor looks a bit like a brown version of his BOTFA armor, so I don't think the Team may want to make it  :(
Also, didn't he have a mount ability in 3.8.1?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Sep 2015, 16:27
well i love his  golden armor botfa and i like to have a mount toggle for elrond


I in fact referred to his 'current' concept; the proposal of this thread is another matter  :)

Well, I also really like Elrond's armor from Dol Guldur and would like to see it in Edain, but Elrond's current armor looks a bit like a brown version of his BOTFA armor, so I don't think the Team may want to make it  :(
Also, didn't he have a mount ability in 3.8.1?


The current armour of Elrond is fashioned on his armour of AUJ, which has a 'different' style, like the armour of Elrond's Knights (and soldiers) still of AUJ.


I really believe that, given that Elrond is the Leader and most important hero of Imladris, it would be very suitable and wise if he had an unique and characteristic concept (Elven robes + Basic Armour + Golden Armour)  :)
But, Ealendril has already stated that they don't have, for now, the motivation for creating a third design for Elrond.
So, we'll see...

No, Elrond didn't have a Mount in the Edain Mod 3.8.1, this is part of the general proposal of this thread.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 16:44
Yeah, I know how you feel, I also really wish to see Elrond's BOTFA armor in Edain; pity that it's not gonna be in Edain mod :(
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Sep 2015, 17:13
Yeah, I know how you feel, I also really wish to see Elrond's BOTFA armor in Edain; pity that it's not gonna be in Edain mod :(


In the description of Elrond's image, on ModDB, it is written that Elrond will keep his previous armour (the one of the Prologue of FOTR) via the Last Alliance spell.
But, I don't really know if it's a momentary or permanent effect.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1#imagebox

Elrond will thus have also his Golden Armour of the Last Alliance with this spell; but it's not the one of BOTFA.


It is still a heavy armour of the Noldor, after all.
This is what really matters  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 17:19
Well, I think that his armor from BOTFA is cooler than his Last Alliance armor  :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Sep 2015, 23:08
well i hope i can see all of his armors in the game i know its too much but still it can be like this in the spell of the last Alliance he should have his last alliance armor

later he should have at lvl 5 his black armor later somehow forge his golden armor something like an upgrade to his armor or something
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 27. Sep 2015, 04:39
I must say I like the concept developed by Tiberius and Tienety^^

However, I'd prefer Elrond to start with his UJ armor since level 1, and then gaining, on level 5, his DG one (or his Last Alliance armor, which looks similar to the DG one). Why?
Mainly because of the game setting. Since all the matches are set on battles, fights and war in general, I've always though stupid for Elrond (who is also one of the most powerful commanders in Middle-Earth) to go fighting with his robes. So, my opinion is he should already have his normal armor when he reaches the battlefield, and later on he should gain a more powerful one^^

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I think it's better he has on level 1 the mount, and on level 7 the flood
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Sep 2015, 08:36
you have a point mate
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 28. Sep 2015, 16:47
I actually like the idea of Elrond starting out with his robes, it makes for more diversity; and I like his Lotr robes  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 28. Sep 2015, 20:08
The collected ideas in the first post are very interesting. I agree with the changes of the level 10 ability, but i dont agree with this argument:
Zitat
Don't forget that Imladris will be the second "most cavalry faction" in the game and only two heroes there are able to ride a horse?
Imladris should be one of the worst cavalry factions in Edain, because it has definitly the best melee units in game. Personally i think that a horse doesnt fit for Elronds gameplay and role. He is a mass slayer with support abilities. Maybe you should discuse this once more.....if you want.^^
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Sep 2015, 20:25

So, Ea, do you agree with a positive display of Vilya's powers (also linked with the true Nature of the Three Rings) as an ultimate supportive spell?  :)
I always think about Elrond's current Restoring power, but enhanced and linked with Vilya.

Saluti.



DieWalküre
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Sep 2015, 20:53
The collected ideas in the first post are very interesting. I agree with the changes of the level 10 ability
So you also agree that whirlwind is quite exaggerated and that vilya should better fit to the rest of elven rings. As we suggested - some ultimate heal fits perfectly and such heal is de facto currently implemented at level 8 in the game (I think). There can be only change for higher level and the picture of vilya will be the same as well.

Imladris should be one of the worst cavalry factions in Edain, because it has definitly the best melee units in game. Personally i think that a horse doesnt fit for Elronds gameplay and role.
Well, horse was only one of the ideas how to eliminate whirlwind. xD
Yes, for the game play perspective Imladris definitely has one of the best infantry, but my analysis is based on these arguments with numbers:


He is a mass slayer with support abilities.
Finally you've confirmed my worries that he is also mass slayer, cause he is really mix man ...  :P
In that case he should primarily be hero supporter and then mass slayer. For his mass slayer role there is suggestion concerning flood which is - again - based on lore. Flood is very iconic for them and I think that deserves definitely more attention than only some water splash at level one (and yes, than some whirlwind which will have Alatar and lightbringers, either way).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril am 28. Sep 2015, 20:56
Zitat
So you also agree that whirlwind is quite exaggerated and that vilya should better fit to the rest of elven rings. As we suggested - some ultimate heal fits perfectly and such heal is de facto currently implemented at level 8 in the game (I think). There can be only change for higher level and the picture of vilya will be the same as well.
Yes, thats what i meant.^^

I agree that elronds whirlwind doesnt longer fits for vilya. I will think about that.

Zitat
cause he is really mix man ...  :P
Got me.  :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Okt 2015, 19:41

The robes are still essential, I believe  :)
You have to consider the role of Elrond in the Third Age (especially the Late Third Age) and the nature of Imladris itself.

Elrond is indeed a great commander, with an unmatchable experience that goes back to the First Age, when he experienced the War of Wrath and the Splendour of the Host of Valinor.
But, we shouldn't forget that Elrond, in the Late Third Age, is a powerful Elven Lord, who lives in an enchanted Holy Sanctuary that he himself has established; his powers are thus definitely focused on healing and restoring, and preserving what is left of the Elves in the World, always trying to achieve the typical and utopian Elven Wish of protecting their creations from the Flow of Time and Decay, as it happens in Valinor.

That's why, even though it kind of is a lost cause, I always supported a concept that contains all these aspects (robes, normal armour and DG armour)  :)
And, this is also the reason, analysing the nature of Elrond, Imladris and the Three Rings, why I always rooted for the 'abolishment' of his Tornado, and a more conceptual and lore accurate display of Vilya.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 25. Jan 2016, 23:12
As a huge fan of Elrond, thought I would wade into the crazy waters of this thread! I recently made a general list of Imladris suggestions, and an Elrond Rework was part of it. DieWalküre directed me this way, so I thought I might as well share it.

Elrond Halfelven

Lvl 1 – Flood: Same as in 3.8, this unleashes a small 2 horse flood that deals medium damage to units and negligible damage to structures. With One Ring – Become Wrath of the Bruinen – Full scale flood

Lvl 3 – Elrond’s Wisdom: Same ability as in 3.8.1, grants XP to targeted hero. With One Ring – Makes target hero lvl 10

Lvl 5 – Lord of Rivendell (passive): Elrond dons his armor from BOTFA, gaining bonus armor, damage, and providing leadership to surrounding units. With One Ring – Becomes High King of the Noldor – Elrond takes up the crown of Gil-Galad and leads the Noldor to a new age in Middle Earth, further increasing all gains made from ‘Lord of Rivendell’

Lvl 8 – Vilya the Ring of Air (passive): The power of Vilya helps to slow the fading of the Eldar, and allows the preservation of Rivendell through the Third Age. Reduces damage taken by building in the elven base and slowly heals allied units within the base proper. With One Ring – Becomes Aman in Arda – The power of the One Ring allows Middle-Earth to be remade in the image of Valinor, as is the dream of the Noldor. All Elven structures take massively reduced damage and heal all elven units in their vicinity swiftly, but dunedain allied units take continuous damage – a reference to how men would wear thin if they lived in the land eternal.

Lvl 10 – Rejuvenation: Elrond is the greatest healer of the Eldar on middle earth. Same effect as in the base game, a heal and ability reset. However, to make it worthy of lvl 10, I believe that in difference to base heals, Rejuvenation would heal units FULLY. With One Ring – Becomes Vilya Unbound; AKA TORNADO TIME. Elrond, now as High King, uses the power of the one to free the 3 Elven Rings. He no longer has time to devote to healing, save in extreme circumstances, so he loses Rejuvenation and regains his iconic tornado, which seemed slightly out of place as a base ability.

So, from what I have seen, the main questions in this thread have had to do about the Whirlwind, mounting, and how best to implement Vilya.

While I'm not too attached to the Whirlwind and would be willing to let it go, I'm not quite sure what I would replace in its spot for the ring-hero Elrond. I know there's a thread for that too, but my proposal in my Imladris thread has both in one, so you'll just have to deal with it.

Generally though, if we wanted to get rid of the tornado in my proposal, we could just make an amped up version of restoration for Ring-Hero Elrond.

As my proposal says, I personally believe Vilya's power is a passive and pervasive one, strengthening the buildings and surroundings of Imladris, not an active power that directly interacts with the world. Elrond's innate healing talents are what would go into the iconic rejuvenation ability. The passive of Vilya would replace the Tornado, arguably trading an active power of Vilya for a passive one.

For mounting, while the image of a rider on a horse is one used to depict a strong military leader, Elrond in my opinion does not need one.

Imladris should be one of the worst cavalry factions in Edain, because it has definitly the best melee units in game. Personally i think that a horse doesnt fit for Elronds gameplay and role. He is a mass slayer with support abilities. Maybe you should discuse this once more.....if you want.^^

I personally agree with Ealendril on this one. Rivendell in my mind is an infantry-heavy faction, not calvary based. As such, it seems to me enough that Glorfindel and Arwen can mount, while Elrond leads the infantry.

And yes, I'm aware now that the team has no plans to make the BOTFA armor, but I didn't know when I made the proposal.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jan 2016, 00:22
Yes, this topic is quite wide and vast, like the wild yet free lands of Middle Earth  xD

As you can see, many suggestions have been made, and many answers have been given too.
Just, the only quite clear element I feel to point at is the very probable intention of the Edain Team of replacing Elrond's tornado with a more lore accurate and suitable representation of Vilya; and, I completely agree with you about the main characteristics that this new ability should have in order to display accurately the real nature of this Ring and the Three Rings in general, as we wrote and discussed about both in this section and in the lore one  :)

Slowing the flow of Time and decay of the World, recreating a mortal reflection of the Undying Lands.

This is the core of everything; something that could be greatly implemented in the gameplay, focusing on what makes also Rivendell specific and unique (preservation, healing, protection, sanctuary-like atmosphere,...).
So, as I have always indicated as well in my previous posts, this proposal has my total approval.

There is also a comment of Ealendril which seems to go in this same direction  :)

Zitat
So you also agree that whirlwind is quite exaggerated and that vilya should better fit to the rest of elven rings. As we suggested - some ultimate heal fits perfectly and such heal is de facto currently implemented at level 8 in the game (I think). There can be only change for higher level and the picture of vilya will be the same as well.

Yes, thats what i meant.^^


P.S. My previous considerations about this matter.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 26. Jan 2016, 05:26
This thread is almost bigger than the vast armies of Gorgoroth, so i'll add my two cents.
When it comes to the abilities I personally think that it is more fit for Elrond to gain improved abilities as he gains level, although maybe not that much. I think the abilities should have only 4 forms: standard, upgrades 1&2 and ring form.

For "Flood" I think that it should be something like Level 1: 1 horse, Level 4: 2 horses, Level 7: 4 horses and then the ring ability would be a full scale flood like in vanilla.

On Elrond's advice it's the other way around, I think we should have some upgrades as he gains levels to show his knowledge expanding as time goes. Therefore on the level it's unlocked it should grant quarter of a level of xp and level 10 it should grant a full level. This would make a real difference between his beginning self and his former self.

Armor of the High Elves
Nothing to say here, I like the concept presented by VectorMaximus

Vilya
Here I think the passive ability nailed it, I really don't see Elrond mounting a horse, he is barely seen like that and it doesn't fit him as a unit supporter to be able to charge head first into battle ahead of all the troops. I would probably change the effect of the though to less damage and small armor or damage buff and then once he ceases the ring make it that they heal.

Rejuvenation
I also really like that concept, as for the tornado I seem to remember a long time ago that somebody proposed the idea of putting them together. While it is not the most lore-accurate it could be that once Elrond gains the one ring he no longer wishes just to protect but to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor and therefore all of his abilities take a slight offense role giving us this:

Elrond's Advice
Can now be cast on enemy heroes, the heroes listen to the commanding voice of Elrond which leads them to their own doom. They can't gain experience and their abilities recharge slower for 1 minute.

Vylia
The might and will of Elrond to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor spreads through the foundations of the earth and hinders the enemy buildings. Settlements, and settlements only, now only produce half as much, or train units half as fast.

Finally rejuvenation becomes a passive heal which can transform into an active tornado once the player clicks on it , representing Elrond unstoppable will.

Obviously this will need tweaking since even from where I'm standing it seems a bit op but the key concept that I(m trying to show here is the corruption that the ring brings to the hero, amplifying their flaws by a hundredth and multiplying the extent of their deepest desires by a million.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 26. Jan 2016, 14:16
I could see the flood getting upgraded as he levels up. However, I think the Elrond's Advice has to give more XP then what you are describing, or at least have a low cooldown, otherwise it doesn't seem like its worth much.

Me and DieWalküre discussed in my Imladris thread about the Tornado. Here's what we said.

Especially, in some of the last pages, I had pointed out the fact that I didn't and still don't like a tornado (therefore a destructive representation of Magic) to be related to the healing and preserving nature of Vilya, which, as you rightly wrote, was made to create a sort of mortal reflection of Valinor/Eldamar/Eressëa in Middle Earth, in a mournful and sad desire of recreating what the Eldar had lost after having chosen the Exile from Aman (very recurrent theme in their creations).

My response;

I do agree heavily that the Whirlwind is highly out of place and is not canonical at all - but it is such a iconic ability I felt somewhat guilty about removing it completely, so I believed that it was an appropriate ability for a ring-hero, showing the destructive capability of the One while removing his rejuvenation, showing that even though Elrond could wield the One and its might, it would come at a cost, in this case, his ability to heal.

So my personal opinion still aligns with my original proposal - Remove rejuvenation and give Elrond back his Whirlwind as Ring-Hero. This would show the rings corruptive and more destructive nature, as well as preserving one of his iconic abilities. However, as I've said before, I don't care an immense amount about the tornado. In my opinion its far more important to get Vilya implemented correctly (preferably as the passive I described). :)

Elrond's Advice
Can now be cast on enemy heroes, the heroes listen to the commanding voice of Elrond which leads them to their own doom. They can't gain experience and their abilities recharge slower for 1 minute.

Vylia
The might and will of Elrond to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor spreads through the foundations of the earth and hinders the enemy buildings. Settlements, and settlements only, now only produce half as much, or train units half as fast.

Finally rejuvenation becomes a passive heal which can transform into an active tornado once the player clicks on it , representing Elrond unstoppable will.

I really like your idea for the One-Ring upgrade for Elrond's Advice. Would it still give XP to allied heroes its cast on? Also, I believe that the Witch-King(Angmar) as the ring-hero had the ability you're talking about, hindering production globally (though I'm not sure if it will be in 4.0).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 26. Jan 2016, 15:53
Huge thread is huge XD

As Elrond is among my favorite heroes, I'd like to put my two cents in. I agree with Tiberius's original idea (first post), as he loses pretty much nothing of what he was and gains new, iconic abilities.

I really liked his original flood and the fact that it gets stronger as he levels up, (ike he's getting the hang of it XD) plus it's a really lore based iconic abilit of his, so it should stay.

Zitat
On Elrond's advice it's the other way around, I think we should have some upgrades as he gains levels to show his knowledge expanding as time goes. Therefore on the level it's unlocked it should grant quarter of a level of xp and level 10 it should grant a full level. This would make a real difference between his beginning self and his former self.


This I approve, given that Rivendell's base is the studying and learning of ancient crafts and arts, it really fits here.

About the horse, I see no actual problem with him riding one, as one could think he patrols the borders of his land with his soldiers. Despite whatever role Imladrish might have among the other faction cavalry-wise, I believe Elrond would be fit to be able to ride, since he, just like Arwen, has been shown on horseback.
Also, one thing I always really liked about Elrond, was the fact that, unlike many other mounted Elves (except Thranduil) his steed is dark in color. Asfaloth (both Aren's and Glorfindel's XD) is a white stallion, and in AUJ too the guards rode steeds that were mostly white-gray, but Elrond's mount was dark brown, that perfectly fit his armor and hair color. Stupid point I know, but still, I really think it helps him stand out.

For the armor thing, I actually prefer the AUJ one, but since that's already implemented, that goes fine by me. The robe is fine, as it creates a theme with the other Elven Lords (Celeborn and Thranduil both start with robes, and later get Armor). As for the Dol Guldur armor, It would really fit his level 10, giving resistance to magic and a little stronger stats, just a little bit though. True, that would be yet another skin to work on and all that, but to be fair, Elrond has the most varied wardrobe we've seen among Elves (benefitting also for being among the most recurring characters right after Gandalf). Plus, once the player has Imladris's other troops all golden, he would seem...diminished with the brown armor. And it would be different from Thranduil, whose troops were colored in the bronze of sapling trees, but he himself wore a freaking silver piece (with Mithril elements it's speculated). So Elrond going from dark and silvery to golden would not really be out of place.
PS: I prefer Dol Guldur armor to Last Alliance, more elaborate and those freaking green pants! It's always a punch in the eye when I see them DX

I agree about the power of Vilya, as it fits perfectly. But I would add that the buildings in the base also get a passive repair that's a bit faster than the usual, which might be a bit much, but still, it's a level 10 ability we're talking about here. Lore accuracy has already be widely explained :)
Perhaps, though, this would downplay Narya...

But, I also go with The Necromancer0's Ring hero suggestion, especially the part where Vilya gets passive healing and goes Tornado! It fits with the One Ring part, and Ealendril  said he's a mass slayer, so a tornado helps that.


Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2016, 00:11
I would just like to add something else I really consider useful for the discussion, in my opinion.

As I have already wrote on VectorMaximus' Imladris thread, the One Ring mechanism of Imladris will probably be radically changed, along with the faction's Ring Hero, of course.
Something really innovative and definitely more accurate, as it has always been a bit problematic trying to imagine Elrond or another High Elf of his 'court' using such an evil tool, with also destructive powers at hand.

There is a specific topic regarding this interesting question: will Rivendell's mechanics concerning the One Ring change in the 4.0 version?
In that same topic, you will see that I and other people tried also to give solid lore facts and explanations to object many Elven characters that were brought into the debate as suitable candidates as possible new Ring Heroes.

So, if I can give an advice, I wouldn't focus, now, on Elrond and the One Ring, unless official news are revealed by the Edain Team (and I won't say anything too)  :)

Regardless of that, I agree with the points raised about Vilya and the healing/restoring conceptual nature of Elrond himself; also, if it depended on me, I would just totally replace the tornado (if it will be still available via different forms/powers) as an inappropriate ability for this particular hero, and find another one that could fit better (determined by the general boundaries we examined so far).

My statement about Elrond as a Ring Hero.

Zitat
If you scroll down a bit this section, you will find that they were made other proposals about Elrond and the One Ring, being his case maybe the most problematic one to be related to a totally evil artefact like the One Ring itself.
Specifically, in this thread you will see that the Edain Team will probably find another more innovative solution for Imladris, rather than the regular Ring Hero that tries to control the One Ring and to bend its powers with different results depending on the faction.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30970.msg392588.html#msg392588

I think that I know what we could possibly see, but I won't reveal anything, not even speculations, if it is not officially announced by the Edain Team itself  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Jul 2016, 23:03
This very iconic and significant thread has been moved to the proper place it rightly belongs to, in hopes that it will still continue to be a gathering place for every suggestion regarding our beloved Lord of Imladris  :)

MOVED
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Amandil7 am 1. Aug 2016, 01:32
Judging from the beta videos, i think Elrond's level 10 ability should maybe last a bit longer and do slightly more damage.