Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Imladris Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 22:27

Titel: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 22:27
Fond greetings to all, dear attendees of this long, ancient and glorious thread. You may be wondering which purpose this venerable topic can still serve, and I shall answer it immediately: to complete the design of our beloved Lord of Imladris ;)

It has been a long and eventful journey. A wonderful experience for everyone involved in such lively debate. Our proposals have already produced meaningful changes, but the portrait is still half-complete. Therefore, Tiberius and I are very glad to present a final comprehensive proposal for Elrond's skill set!

Before I showcase the whole ensemble, let us go through the main arguments that have informed our little 'quest':


Zitat
ELROND

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/38/Elrond_loudwater_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113524) Level 1: Rage of the Loudwater - Elrond raises the waters of the Bruinen in defence of his people, summoning a powerful flood in the form of a mighty horse to crush enemies in the target area. At levels 3, 5, 7, and 10, an additional flood horse appears (maximum 5). Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/d/d4/Faramir_knight_ranger_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170311125827) Level 3: Mount - Elrond mounts or dismounts his horse.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/3e/Elrond_ancient_equipment_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171127131415) Level 5: Ancient Equipment - Elrond draws his old sword Hadhafang and puts on his battle armour. Elrond permanently gains +25% armour and inflicts area-of-effect damage. Units in his vicinity also gain +25% armour. (Passive ability)

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/c/c2/Galadriel_treacherous_as_seas_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170922122227) Level 7: Wuthering Gale - Elrond summons a raging whirlwind around himself which will heavily damage surrounding enemy units, knocking them down and drawing them towards Elrond. Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The mightiest of the Three Rings shields Middle-earth from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map gain +70% armour and are immune to magic. Heroes cannot be knocked back and their abilities recharge much faster.
Lasts for a long duration.


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7e/c1/27/7ec127cd2a537b51d59e2cd717d73640.jpg)



The Ring of Air shall offer the ultimate defence against decay. In fact, what is decay exactly? Mostly, I view it as the pitiless passing of time and the consequent deterioration brought about by bad weather and malevolent entities, be it fell ice, poison or other corroding adversities, not to mention destruction and physical damages deriving from assaults and sieges.
A magical defence against the merciless action of these negative factors therefore strings the right chords. Marvellous solution.

We are of the definitive opinion that the aforementioned design not only does justice to a legendary, high-kindred leader of a faction, but it overall suits the canons very accurately. Vilya rendered Imladris an immaculate sanctuary, unscathed by time and decadence. And this the Ring had been doing for several centuries, until the very valley became a paler reflection of Eressëa itself. Hence, here is another fundamental component of the concept: a paradise on earth.

Zitat
Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.

***

In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

(http://www.tednasmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/TN-Fair_Valley_of_Rivendell.jpg)

FOR

1. Walküre
2. Tiberius Ogden
3. Fellowship_of_the_Ring
4. tolgayurdal
5. GildorInglórion (ModDB)
6. AmosVogel
7. AulëTheSmith
8. TheOnlyTrueWitchking
9. SP19XX



Edited by Walküre
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and guy with many armours
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 13. Jul 2015, 22:42
Personally I see no problem with Elrond's tornado. Elrond's role as a helper to others is fulfilled with his "Refresh" ability, which allows an allied hero to instantly use their abilities again.  I would argue that Refresh is Elrond's other iconic ability.  The tornado is a useful ability which should not be removed.

About Elrond's armor, I think the team needs to decide whether Elrond has his Brown and Silver armor OR his Golden armor, not both.  Personally, I would prefer the Brown and Silver armor, because the Dol Guldur armor looks more similar to his Last Alliance armor.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 13. Jul 2015, 22:45
Well, we cant give Elrond a third armour, this would be definitly to much. I think it fits perfectly, that he wear his brown-silver armor at Level 5. Additionally, i dont have any motivation longer to create a third design for Elrond. [ugly]
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 13. Jul 2015, 22:55
Nenya cann't protect the people of Lorien, they win the battle towards Dol Guldor by experienced warriors and sophisticated weaponry. The use of Nenya is to resist the poison and corruption on the woodland from Dol Guldor, thus preserving the living space for Galadrim. In my opinions, Galadriel's power related to Nenya shouldn't be anything directly related to battle. It could heal the friendly units, summon fog to retard enemy's movement, provide resistance to poison or give some bonus to Malorn Tree, something like that.

One of my thought, is make Galadriel's Nenya related her level, as she levels up to lv 3,5 ,7,10, the Malorn Trees(main economic building) will be gradually enhanced in production and protection.
And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jul 2015, 22:57
I think I can post again here the proposal I made on the EIC once :)




Galadriel wears ring of water - Nenya on level 10, which protects her realm (heroes, units, buildings in wide area are protected and invulnerable). Again - very lore accurate matter.


I think it would be crucial, to be more in line with the lore and to avoid possible OP and balance problems, if Galadriel protected with Nenya only the structures of Lothlórien, excluding thus your allies' ones and even your own Mirkwood settlement.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 22:58
Additionally, i dont have any motivation longer to create a third design for Elrond. [ugly]
Ea I expected such argument ... xD ... and I think that it's little bit irrelevant, because you (team) already had full strength to rework Imladris warriors, how many times, thrice? :P

Maybe it will be sufficient rework his last alliance armor (because definitely there is inspiration from movie makers) in order to look like armor from DG. Elrond really deserve some "costume attention" - in the movie he had three versions of armour and ... at least seven bathrobes. :o

Edit: By the way - minor detail, it seems that Elrond model is without headband:

And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?
Just check his first spell  ;)
And concerning Nenya or Galadriel - during next days I will create special thread for this, this thread is about Elven rings in general and focuses on Elrond's tornado or armour. :P
So hold the topic otherwise our thread will be locked. :D
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jul 2015, 23:45
Nenya cann't protect the people of Lorien, they win the battle towards Dol Guldor by experienced warriors and sophisticated weaponry. The use of Nenya is to resist the poison and corruption on the woodland from Dol Guldor, thus preserving the living space for Galadrim. In my opinions, Galadriel's power related to Nenya shouldn't be anything directly related to battle. It could heal the friendly units, summon fog to retard enemy's movement, provide resistance to poison or give some bonus to Malorn Tree, something like that.

One of my thought, is make Galadriel's Nenya related her level, as she levels up to lv 3,5 ,7,10, the Malorn Trees(main economic building) will be gradually enhanced in production and protection.
And is there any of Cirdan's power really related to Narya?

I think we can continue here our little 'discussion' about Nenya and Galadriel, ziqing  :)

I think I have written a ton of posts about this topic, but it is really a great topic  8-)

I recognise the strength and power of Celeborn and the Galadhrim, and they were surely essential in the protection of Lothlórien.
BUT, Tolkien often and clearly stated many times that the bliss of Lothlórien and its safety depend primarily on Galadriel.

- She is a 8000+/20000 year-old Noldorin Princess from Valinor, born before the Sun and the Moon in the Years of the Trees, who has seen the Holy and Eternal Light of the Trees (something that Celeborn and the Guardian of the Grey Havens haven't, being born in Beleriand) and captured that light in her hair.
Tolkien once said that she is the greatest of the Noldor, comparing her to her uncle.

- Nenya is 'just' a powerful tool for her, that enhances her powers and allows her to slow and stop the flow of Time and the ineluctable decay of the World.
Her magical powers are far greater, and come from the Ancient Times of the Years of the Trees in Valinor; her powers are thus mixed with the powers of Nenya, a mighty mix that makes her one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth, someone that Sauron could have never defeated without the One Ring.

- In the dark and disenchanted Third Age, an Age dominated by Men, she appears to be more as a goddess, almost as a Maia, who is part of the legend, in the eyes of simple Humans and rustic Wood Elves (Mirkwood), as Legolas says, full of wonder, about the Golden Wood.

- You can't refer to Lothlórien, talking about its military power, leadership and defence, as if you were referring to the Kingdoms of Men, that obviously rely more on the their military strength and the value of their soldiers.
These elements are obviously present in the Golden Wood, but you have to consider that Lothlórien is a magical and enchanted place (one of the few ones in the Third Age), like Mordor, Rivendell, Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul; and Tolkien clearly states that these types of places are so dangerous or blissful because they are corrupted or blessed by Evil or Good Magic, and Magic always emanates from a powerful good or evil magical being, in these cases (in order) Galadriel, Sauron, Elrond and the Witch-king.

Not only does Galadriel make the Golden Wood a timeless and holy sanctuary, but she also protects it with its powers.
Galadriel is the SOURCE of all the Joy, Bliss, Timeless Atmosphere and Safety of Lothlórien, and when she leaves, after the War of the Ring, the Golden Wood gradually gets darkened and decays, to the point that, when Arwen goes there to die, it is totally unrecognisable.
Galadriel is also naturally recognised and acknowledged as a true leader and guardian by her People; a Light that always fights the Darkness.
This is what Haldir tells the Fellowship when it enters Lothlórien.


Probably the 'sophisticated weaponry' you are referring to is this  :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 13. Jul 2015, 23:50
Zitat
Ea I expected such argument ... xD ... and I think that it's little bit irrelevant, because you (team) already had full strength to rework Imladris warriors, how many times, thrice? :P
Got me!  :D
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 13. Jul 2015, 23:54
I think we can continue here our little 'discussion' about Nenya and Galadriel, ziqing  :)
These walls of texts definitely aren't little discussion. :D :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 00:06
 Magic, the Three Rings and Lothlórien are pivotal themes in Tolkien's Universe.

And you know me, I can't contain myself when we talk about Galadriel  (**)


Galadriel is for me what the 'Iron Hills soldiers from BOTFA' concept is for LordDainIronfoot  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 14. Jul 2015, 00:08
I think it is a good idea to add Elrond's Last alliance armor to level 10. If I know the his last alliance armor is not used in new version. :(

edit: or maybe Elrond can have Last alliance armor or Guldur armor in Arnor. I had this idea long time ago for new ultimate spell:
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30925.0.html (http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30925.0.html)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 14. Jul 2015, 00:31
Dear DieWalküre, I respect your opinions and understanding of Middle earth and all these figures in LOTR. I think it is just we have different interpretations of Tolkien's world, there is nothing in your reply that I haven't read before. I am well aware that Galadriel and her ring is the main reason that Lorien could maintain prosperity and stick near the evil power from Dol Guldor,unlike Mirkwood. That's why I suggest her power to be directly related to the building and economy of Lorien, that's the very foundation of the faction and key to victory. And I agree with every Hymn and praise you have mentioned for Galadriel.

Back to this topic, I hold my previous point because the battle in Middle earth is about swords and shields, when Sauron or even Morgoth want to kill someone, he'd better put on armors and find a menacing mace to smash his target, instead of casting a spell that make his target burning to death; My point is that there is rarely supernatural power involved directly in the battlefield. That means despite all the hymns and mysteries related to Galadriel, if she wants to kill an orc or armored troll, she could only use sword and spear, like her brothers and all other Noldor warriors, Maiar like or not, that doesn't make any difference in battlefield.

About the leader role, just tell me how many battles have Galadriel really experienced, according to the book, despite all the 8000+ years she walks on earth? I only remember two, I don't want to mention there is rarely no record about her during the brutal war in First age. There is rarely any record of her performance in the last alliance, when Gil-Galad died in the dual against Sauron, or any other great wars before the downfall of Dol Guldor, during which for once she overpowered Sauron, when the ring was already destroyed and Sauron already lost all his power, before that Lorien elves could only defend themselves in their own territory.

Once again I want to say I agree with all the praises and hymns you have mentioned and your affection for this character. But this "light queen against Sauron" thing is not well accepted by everyone.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 01:15

Dear ziqing, probably, with some differences, we are saying the same thing.
I never demanded (you can check all my posts out in this website) an OP concept of Galadriel, making her fight with both powerful spells and sword and armour (even if it were possible), because I am well aware that primarily there are crucial balance and gameplay issues, not to say that we are talking about a game set in the War of the Ring.

If you look at my old EIC proposal in my first comment of this thread, you will notice that it has its roots specifically on structures/defence/settlement of Lothlórien; the point is tying the last power of Galadriel (Nenya) also to the structures/settlement of the faction of Lothlórien (Tree House), not only to be more in line with the lore, but primarily to make you really 'feel' that Galadriel is the leader of the faction, she's a guardian and she's a very characteristic hero that can protect her settlement with her Magic, an innovative power that no hero has so far.
This 'tool' (magical protection of the settlement) was available in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1 only via an upgrade, but Galadriel, if the concept will be implemented, will be able to personally cast this spell/upgrade as a power of hers, as she will also personally give her Gifts to the heroes in the Edain Mod 4.0 (something that again was only available via the Spellbook as a power).
These are, in my point of view, significant things that define the essence of a hero in the Edain Mod and make you really 'feel' the character, just as the Witch-king is capable of using his mount or his burning sword, or Gandalf using his spells.
These elements were not so evident and present, speaking about her, and that's why she has been radically changed; and it was a decision of the Edain Team, not mine.
They also admitted that, to be the leader of her faction, was not fun nor enjoyable to play with, as if she didn't have a proper position/role to fit in.
I never really asked for a sword or an armour.

About the lore, those were not just hymns or praises of mine, but the very words of Tolkien, that often in the books (even in apparently-inappropriate parts) indicates and refers to Galadriel's might; I didn't make up anything.

Galadriel was not involved, in a relevant way, in battle until the Third Age, but we know precisely that, during her more-than-1000-year permanence in Aman, was personally taught by the Valar (why not also by Tulkas himself) and was, already there, as a young elf-maiden, recognised as the greatest elf-maiden of the Noldor, and named also Nerwen, for her incredible physical strength; and we also know that the standards of the definition of 'being powerful' at that time (Years of the Trees), among those Elves (Royal Family of the Noldor), were immensely higher that the ones of the Third Age.
Galadriel could fight with a sword and an armour in the Third Age, but she can easily avoid to do it, since she has immense magical powers.
Really, they are not hymns, they are solid lore facts and reasons that should help you to understand her real and deep essence and might in the Third Age, and there are many more facts that I could refer to.


Anyway, my proposal about Nenya doesn't directly deal with Galadriel's character in the First Age as a Warrior Princess; it would be interesting trying to recreate this concept, but it's not the main purpose of my idea.
WETA made a concept for her for BOTFA, and I think we could look at it as Galadriel in the First Age  :)

Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 14. Jul 2015, 01:21
So be it, "seeking common points while reserving difference".

Although I do hope her influence on building will be passive and automatic, just like Cirdan's on Lindon watchtower
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Jul 2015, 01:29
So be it, "seeking common points while reserving difference".

Although I do hope her influence on building will be passive and automatic, just like Cirdan's on Lindon watchtower

In my proposal the concept is basically: once you have activated the power, all the units become temporarily invulnerable (just like in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1), but, this time, if she is next to your Lothlórien settlement, all the settlement will temporarily shine and become invulnerable to every type of attack (especially the ones of the siege machines) and spell.
This is what basically happened in the Edain Mod 3.8.1 when you activated the upgrade 'Schutzbann Caras Galadhons' (Defence of Caras Galadhon, in English); but, this time, Galadriel will personally cast it on units, heroes and settlement (if she is closed to it).
A power that can be used to attack, making your army invulnerable before an assault, or to defend yourself, protecting the settlement.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 14. Jul 2015, 01:45

In my proposal the concept is basically: once you have activated the power, all the units become temporarily invulnerable (just like in the previous Edain Mod 3.8.1), but, this time, if she is next to your Lothlórien settlement, all the settlement will temporarily shine and become invulnerable to every type of attack (especially the ones of the siege machines) and spell.


I see this part in previous reply. I would rather with her leveling up, all Mallorn trees in the wild will be surrounded by densed fog which permanently reduce the damage from siege weapon and melee units, and also provide healing and defense bonus for nearby elves. I would rather her influence to be global, permanent and subtle.

I will keep reserved opinions in this "invulnerable power", this kind of power should correspond to some epic defense battle scene in the book, Hama earn it because of his valar in Helms Deep, King Dain because the bloody battle in Erebor against Easterlings, and Throin earns it for gods-know-what-reason(Azanulbizar?). Although there are also defense battle for Lorien during the war, it is not as tragic as those battles.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 15. Jul 2015, 16:22
i think it is better for elrond to start with his clothes and later at lvl 5 get the black armor then lvl 10 get the last alliance  and if you buff him with a forged armor he gets the golden armor with some new ult but not the tornado galadriel should have the tornado 
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 15. Jul 2015, 16:42
Why should he get three or four different outfits?  It doesn't really fit.  Just have Elrond have his brown-silver armor at level 5, and have his Last Alliance armor when he is summoned in the Last Alliance Spell.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 15. Jul 2015, 18:10
i think it is better for elrond to start with his clothes and later at lvl 5 get the black armor then lvl 10 get the last alliance  and if you buff him with a forged armor he gets the golden armor
Yes, that's my proposal, but on level 10 should be his Dol Guldur armour. I think that three outfits are quite sufficient and suitable for him. Either way it will be unique. You are talking about four variations and it's quite a lot. xD

with some new ult but not the tornado galadriel should have the tornado
Honestly, yes, Gladys has tornado (her dark/ring hero form) but Elrond has whirlwind, it isn't strong tornado, but either way, I feel that it isn't suitable and lore accurate (in comparison to Nenya or Narya which have brilliant implementations in the mod) and mainly - I think that his role is (or will be) very useful hero supporter, but destructive whirlwind doesn't correspond with his role.

and have his Last Alliance armor when he is summoned in the Last Alliance Spell.
And in which faction he is summoned in the Last Alliance Spell? So where will be chance to see him in this armour? :P
Elves with Elrond were removed from Arnor ultimate spell and there is completely different effect (Gondor summoning). Try to play for Arnor. :P
And in Imladris? Yes, there is Last Alliance Spell, but logically without Elrond because he is as a permanent and main hero there ... and clones had only in Matrix trilogy. xD

But I have an idea ...
Elrond's role as a helper to others is fulfilled with his "Refresh" ability, which allows an allied hero to instantly use their abilities again. I would argue that Refresh is Elrond's other iconic ability.
I completely agree with you, in vanilla game such spell was available on level 10 ... maybe this could be effect of the Elven ring, mass heal and recovering of abilities for heroes, because it's mighty ability and Elrond isn't powerful sorcerer, so in that case his healing skills are supported by the Elven ring. So on level seven will be space for some new and "normal" ability. :)
For level 7 (or for lower level - it isn't important) I suggest simply solution - "mount/dismount" - we know that he is able ride a horse quite a long time, since days of Arnor ...


and in the first Hobbit movie we can see him as a leader of Imladris cavalry:


... also it fits into the faction, Imladris will have melee cavalry and only Glorfindel and Arwen are able to ride.

So effects for three Elven rings of power will be following:
Narya - supports
Nenya - protects
Vilya - heals



It makes sense. :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Jul 2015, 21:26



Nenya - protects


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/19/52/68/1952680fc120a77f4c8299a725cba1c1.jpg)

It makes sense. :)

Nenya protects indeed   (**) 8-) xD


Zitat
I completely agree with you, in vanilla game such spell was available on level 10 ... maybe this could be effect of the Elven ring, mass heal and recovering of abilities for heroes, because it's mighty ability and Elrond isn't powerful sorcerer, so in that case his healing skills are supported by the Elven ring. So on level seven will be space for some new and "normal" ability. :)
For level 7 (or for lower level - it isn't important) I suggest simply solution - "mount/dismount" - we know that he is able ride a horse quite a long time, since days of Arnor ...

I agree, I think that only Galadriel, among all the other elven heroes, should be able to use Magic in the way of modifying the Weather to create storms or whirls.
We could say that Elrond's 'little tornado' power is a nice and useful memory of BFME2, but I have never found it really appropriate for the very nature and essence of Elrond himself.

He is more a Healer and a Guardian of a sacred place in the War of the Ring, but, unlike Galadriel, his place/realm was not under constant attack, and he doesn't have to use his powers to physically protect it from heavy assaults (what Galadriel does on the other hand) or to destroy and cleanse an evil and corrupted ruined fortress in a dark wood.
Furthermore, we mustn't forget that Vilya is the Ring of Air, but hasn't primarily the power of conjuring whirlwinds; the main power of Vilya (apart from its protection of Rivendell and its status as the source of all the Joy and Bliss of that place) is maintaining a 'minimum quantity' of Good and Order in the World, whatever happens outside Rivendell.

I like the idea of a mount for him, so kingly, as all the armours are for every hero  :)
Even though 'someone' is so kingly and royal that doesn't even need a mount (but in the books, in ROTK, she rides a beautiful White Horse when she's heading to the Grey Havens)  :P

#AHorseForElrond  :)

Edit:
Also, a mount defines better the 'commander of armies' nature of Elrond, rather than being a wind sorcerer.


Because, obviously, #OnlyGaladrielCan  8-)

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Elrond's proposal
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 15. Jul 2015, 22:34
So Elrond skillset will look something like this:
1) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

Abilities are the same like in the previous version and probably will be the same in the current version. Change is only for level 7 (horse) and former spell on level seven is moved to level 10.
Many arguments for that are above. :)


Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Jul 2015, 22:54

10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes
 


Yes, this is the right purpose, the focus (level 10 ability) will be on his Restoration/Healing ability and nature, as Tolkien describes Rivendell, already in 'The Hobbit', as a calm shelter and place of recovering  :)

Zitat
"His house was perfect whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, nor a pleasant mixture of them all. Evil things did not come into that valley." (The Hobbit, Chapter 3)

(http://static.hdw.eweb4.com/media/wallpapers_1920x1080/movies/1/1/rivendell-the-lord-of-the-rings-movie-hd-wallpaper-1920x1080-7246.jpg)

LORE ACCURACY first  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 00:15
So Elrond skillset will look something like this:
1) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

Abilities are the same like in the previous version and probably will be the same in the current version. Change is only for level 7 (horse) and former spell on level seven is moved to level 10.
Many arguments for that are above. :)
I like this idea. I think that vilya's ability with healing effect is more suitable for him. Also, It would be nice to have Elrond on horse like in hobbit movie.  (**)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 00:46
Zitat
Yes, that's my proposal, but on level 10 should be his Dol Guldur armour. I think that three outfits are quite sufficient and suitable for him. Either way it will be unique. You are talking about four variations and it's quite a lot
you have a point its a lot
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 00:49
It is mentioned in The Silmarillion that Celebrimbor had forged the Three in order to heal and to preserve, rather than to enhance the strengths of each individual bearer, unlike the seven and the nine.

I don't know, I think I basically disagree with your interpretion of the three rings, in the book the three ring is forged so that Noldor and other Elves from the west could remain living in the middle earth against the will of Valar, it is subtle and global influence. But it seems you would rather make them directly related to battle, which go directly against the lore. But I won't argue more on that anymore.

Back to the game, Elrond's healing power doesn't originate from Vilya, he himself is the greatest healer of middle earth. And deleting his final tornado power just for a "mounted/dismounted" toggle? I do not like it one bit. Who will be the massive killer of Imladris then? And I am pretty sure Elrond will fight along side Imladris heavy infantry 95% time on foot, that "mounted/dismounted" toggle is meaningless, just like the mounted ability of Aragorn. Almost all human and elves in Middle earth know how to ride a horse, that doesn't mean we need to give a mounted ability to everyone just to take a precious power slot unless it serves a tactical need.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 01:06
i think his lvl 10 ability should be the water horses for a mass kill ya know like in the books he summons the river ok gandalf did the one horse head but still elrond did the trick so there ya go lvl 10  ability
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 01:22
Have you guys consider idea of spell unlocking like with Aragorn, I know that idea with Aragorn skill's upgrade and unlocking follows his life story, but think it would be fitting for Elrond also. I propose this idea firstly because of that tripple armour upgrade. (Also would like to see that Dol-Guldur's armour). That upgrades could be selected chronologically. (Where we should have 4 models)
During leveling his ability "Armour of high elves" should be stronger and stronger. (Improvement of leadership). Also on lower level, before he got 10 and "Vilya's restoration" (Does this ability can be used on him for healing?) he should have some hero healing ability like Athelas in vanila game, after all he's greatest healer of Middle Earth. This ability on level 10 should be replaced with "Vilya's restoration". 
If four model system is too much, then same idea only with 3 models, and he start with some of mentioned armour's models. :)
Names of model upgrades and order of model upgrading is something I presume you will propose better then me. xD
Also if he becomes a ring hero for Imladris, and there is not space for new abilities in his palantir,(like maybe water ponies  8-) ) maybe is also good idea to implement new look of palantir like team did with Sauron's ring form.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 01:54
  • Starting model without armour, something like:
    http://elvenesse.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Elrond_standup.jpg or this
    http://www.rotezora.org/01_Film/hdr/elben/elrond/elrond3.jpg
  • First upgrade on level 5, model from Last Alliance.
  • Second upgrade on level 7 or 8, model form orc hunt-Hobbit movie UJ.
  • Third upgrad on level 10, model from Dol Guldur-Hobbit movie BoTFa.

I disagree, as you said there is no evolution in Elrond's role, and his armor in last alliance is definitely way better than his armor in Hobbit, it was made from the Noldor craftmanship of second age and he wore it in the most brutal and epic battle against Sauron, it will either be the final armor of his or only appear in the last alliance. That dark armor in Hobbit I is just for hunting , it is barely made for actual battle. I think we don't really need to involve it in the design(but I know the team has already finished this model)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 09:56
It would be nice to have Elrond on horse like in hobbit movie.  (**)
It seems that originally it was your idea some time ago. :D
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1
 (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 10:42
It is mentioned in The Silmarillion that Celebrimbor had forged the Three in order to heal and to preserve, rather than to enhance the strengths of each individual bearer, unlike the seven and the nine.


But all the Rings of Power have, intentionally or unintetionally, this effect on everyone who wields them, either they were corrupted by Sauron's powers or not; even though we know that Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf already have immense powers by themselves, and end up using their Rings also as 'tools' to channel all their full potential, as it is shown in FOTR (book), when Galadriel (tempted by the One Ring and by her desires of dominion) raises her hand and obscure all the Stars in the Sky with Nenya's brightness.
And remember that it's true that the Three were forged by Celebrimbor alone, but he still learnt the basic knowledge (let's call it 'secret formula') to create the Rings of Powers by Sauron himself, and thus the Three are unwillingly bound to the destiny of the One Ring like the other Rings, and share with them fundamental elements/characteristics, and enhancing the natural powers of their bearers is one of these common characteristics.

Zitat
I don't know, I think I basically disagree with your interpretion of the three rings, in the book the three ring is forged so that Noldor and other Elves from the west could remain living in the middle earth against the will of Valar, it is subtle and global influence. But it seems you would rather make them directly related to battle, which go directly against the lore.

You are totally right, that's why I think that a Healing/Restoring power is more suitable for Vilya, since Elrond never used in the lore its powers, apart from the flood (power that he already has), in the destructive purpose of creating whirlwinds.
I recognise that it is his iconic power and a nice remnant of BFME2, but it doesn't really fit Vilya's nature.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 10:44
I have a solution for Elrond's armors: :P
-
Elrond never fought without armor in book or movie. In addition, this is fit for Imladris style. Imladris units without heavy armor have silver color from hobbit movie and for heavy armor have gold color like in Last Aliance. :D

i think his lvl 10 ability should be the water horses for a mass kill ya know like in the books he summons the river ok gandalf did the one horse head but still elrond did the trick so there ya go lvl 10  ability

Yes, this would be probably better. Maybe mounted/dismounted on level 1 and Loud waters fury ability as more powerful spells on level 7 or Level 10.

It would be nice to have Elrond on horse like in hobbit movie.  (**)
It seems that originally it was your idea some time ago. :D
http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1
 (http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1)
Yes, I like his horse. 8-)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 11:15

Elrond never fought without armor in book or movie. In addition, this is fit for Imladris style. Imladris units without heavy armor have silver color from hobbit movie and for heavy armor have gold color like in Last Aliance. :D



True, although I like his elven robe/'free time' outfit, I find it more suitable for banquets and parties, rather than battles  :P


Again I agree, since in the books/lore Elrond openly uses his powers (in a destructive way) to create a flood to save Frodo from the Ringwraiths, rather than using whirlwinds (because #OnlyGaladrielCan).
It has to be, though, a really powerful and giant flood  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 11:51
Ok, two models, starting with Hobbit light armor, at level 5 getting heavy armor from Last Alliance. First you propose set of abilities without Flood, now Flood is included in set? I am confused now.  :o  :D
Can someone  now describe whole set of abilities from level 1 to level 10?   :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 13:04
It is mentioned in The Silmarillion that Celebrimbor had forged the Three in order to heal and to preserve, rather than to enhance the strengths of each individual bearer, unlike the seven and the nine.
Yes, and my proposal is about it. xD

I don't know, I think I basically disagree with your interpretion of the three rings, in the book the three ring is forged so that Noldor and other Elves from the west could remain living in the middle earth against the will of Valar, it is subtle and global influence. But it seems you would rather make them directly related to battle, which go directly against the lore. But I won't argue more on that anymore.

I really don't know why you are talking about Elven rings generally, that their implementation is bad etc. It isn't my interpretation, but it comes from Edain team and from previous versions. We have already stated that we really like effects of Narya and Nenya, because for game play their nature have brilliant implementation. This thread is primarily about Vilya which is offensive although rest of elven rings has defensive potential and also that current Vilya effect doesn't fit there.

he himself is the greatest healer of middle earth. And deleting his final tornado power just for a "mounted/dismounted" toggle? I do not like it one bit. 

Well, firstly you stated that Elrond is the greatest healer, and then that you like his tornado. And tornado comes from Vilya? You stated elven rings of power arent't for battle purpose. Of course that Elrond is greatest healer and his abilities are supported by ring of preservation. I think it fits perfectly and mainly it fits into the general ring concept.

Who will be the massive killer of Imladris then?

He is mass slayer? Really? :o
I always thought that he is strong hero supporter and secondarily unit supporter + ring hero. His abilities don't correspond with mass slayer role, such role have for instance Smaug as a big creature, Mollock as a terrible monster or Gandalf as a powerful wizard.

And I am pretty sure Elrond will fight along side Imladris heavy infantry 95% time on foot, that "mounted/dismounted" toggle is meaningless

Don't forget that Imladris will be the second "most cavalry faction" in the game. xD
And only two heroes there are able to ride a horse.

Almost all human and elves in Middle earth know how to ride a horse, that doesn't mean we need to give a mounted ability to everyone just to take a precious power slot unless it serves a tactical need.

Yes, but in Edain mod, all heroes, who are on horseback in the books and in the movies quite a long time, or at least twice, have such possibility.

Concerning idea of Tienety ... it would be second suggestion. :)

First proposal is:
1) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

First four levels Elrond has bathrobe. Since level 5 armour from the first Hobbit movie and on level ten his DG armour.

And second proposal:
1) Mount/dismount
Lord of Imladris is able to ride a horse
3) Elrond's advice
Small amount of experience to hero
5) Armour of high elves
Passive ability - bonus effect for friendly units
7) Loud waters fury
Water blast in targeting area (but stronger than previous one on first level)
10) Vilya's restoration
Power of the elven ring heals nearby allies and refreshes ability timer of friendly heroes

First four levels armour from the first Hobbit movie. Since level 5 armour from Dol Guldur. Overall he is without bathrobe! :o xD

Generally his last alliance armour should be for Arnor and he should be included in Last Alliance spell there. http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30925.0.html
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 13:10
what about that. beginning should be elrond with his gold robe https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/03/fd/83/03fd83eadc0761543360ca5f8b688f85.jpg or the one from lotr https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/53/52/0c/53520c6e951a44203e33db4c3418d74f.jpg and then you have to choose the armor you want to forge for him and the armors should have their own buffs whada ya think ???
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 13:20
what about that. beginning should be elrond with his gold robe https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/03/fd/83/03fd83eadc0761543360ca5f8b688f85.jpg or the one from lotr https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/53/52/0c/53520c6e951a44203e33db4c3418d74f.jpg and then
Well, Elrond currently has brown bathrobe from vanilla game and from the Fellowship of the Ring.


I don't expect that Ea will create for him second bathrobe. He hasn't strength for DG armour and in addition second bathrobe is quite a lot. xD
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 14:01
TiberiusOgden, I respect you and other experienced members on this forum! :)
But I have to ask you next:
Have you consider to replace that ability "Elrond's advice" for some healing ability?
Does he need healing ability on lower levels for himself or for supporting other heroes?
And what is real benefit of  giving other heroes exp? (If ability gives exp to some elite units or units in general, but hero ??? I know that Elrond's advice would be nice from lore and movie aspect and unique in way you propose it, and I like it because it is unique in that way, but really what is benefit from it? Every hero can kill basic units and get exp, ofc weaker heroes won't attack strong or elite units, that is strategy of the game anyway...)

Btw I am for second proposal of skills set! :)
More power and less graphic design, despite I  also proposed some of that robes in comment earlier. (But there always can be fusion of good characteristics from both proposals.  :D I know, greedy I am , and Ea will judge any situation with new graphic characteristics  xD )


Really like this and also I am for many more changes in Arnor faction. (In next few days I will open new topics about Arnor and I expect you guys there! :). For now all I do is bug reporting  [uglybunti] , but I have a lot ideas for Arnor!  8-) )
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 14:05

Very difficult to choose, they are both well balanced and interesting.

I would say that the first one is focused more on Elrond's graphical characteristics and innovation (with three different armours/robes), and defines better Elrond's role as commander/general.

The second one, on the other hand, lacks an outfit, but highlights better his magical and destructive powers, that are represented by his ability of creating a powerful flood (stronger than the actual on level 1).

I would say that I prefer the first one, since we would have a more graphically improved Elrond.
But I think that, apart from the differences between the two, the crucial point is finally giving Vilya a proper power and representation, as a tool that will heal and restore you and your allies, in the spirit of Elrond's solidarity towards all the Free People of Middle Earth; and both the two proposals are focused on this matter  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 14:12
Does he need healing ability on lower levels for himself or for supporting other heroes?
You mean vanilla "athelas" - don't worry, the same effect of this spell has Arwen. And overall Imladris has and will have the most healing spells from the all of factions. It's characteristic.

And what is real benefit of  giving other heroes exp? (If ability gives exp to some elite units or units in general, but hero ??? I know that Elrond's advice would be nice from lore and movie aspect and unique in way you propose it, and I like it because it is unique in that way, but really what is benefit from it?
As you said :P - it's unique, lore accurate and mainly useful during the whole game (of course - mainly in the beginning).

Very difficult to choose, they are both well balanced and interesting.
It doesn't matter which one. Main point is Elrond's skillset. His potential new armour or "bathrobes" ... xD .. is second and additional thing.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Jul 2015, 14:53
That is exactly what I meant. I assumed about healing potencial in Imladris faction, anyway  played vanilla a lot and athelas stayed term which I will link always with Elrond. :)

Said I like it because of it. Anyway if unit leveling system in Imladris faction stays same like in 3.8.1, then this ability gains in importance and idea about unit leveling fails. :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 15:30
I think it will be better for Elrond to have his Hobbit Armor on LV 5 then on LV 10 hi BoFA Gold Armor as for his Last Alliance Armor to stay only to when he is in the Spellbook! :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 15:33
what about a second palantier healing skills and fighting skills ???
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 16:20
what about a second palantier healing skills and fighting skills ???
Wouldnt so many Palantirs and Powers make him to OP !? :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 16:28
I said I wouldn't agrue on the lore about the three ring anymore, I just want to mention the fact that the more power we associate with the three the more we violate the lore, that'all.

I don't like the name "restoration of Vilya" one bit, it is true all the three has the use of "healing and preservation", but Vilya has nothing particularly to do with healing, if it works for "restoration of Vilya" then we could also have "restoration of Nenya/Narya", if we have to associate power with Vilya, it should be something else. There are always speculations that Vilya could be used to control natural element to some extent, that's why I could accept the tornado power from the previous version to be related to Vilya. Maybe with more tactical use instead of purely destruction.

And I hold my point that the "mounted/dismounted" toggle will be a total waste for Erlond's power set, you claim that Imladris will be the second horse-related faction after Rohan, I don't know how many inside information you have from the team. Imladris already have two heroes to fight alongside the cavalry, it doesn't need a third one. And I am pretty sure Imladris will rely on the infantry just as most other faction, cavalry will always be a support force in battlefield. Elrond should always fight alongside the main force of Imladris, following his fighting style from original game. The same reason why we shouldn't give Boromir a horse.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Jul 2015, 16:41
I agree about that Elrond doesnt need a Mont!He is a Infantry Hero abd Support so I tihnk he doesnt need a steed! :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 16:51
About Vilya: I am considering a leadership or power related to the Elemental Mage of Imladris.
About armor: Have you considered relating his golden armor to Elladan and Elrohir? They could still enter the forge and strengthen Imladris heroes in 3.8.1, keep this function, and let them upgrade Elrond's hunting armor to golden battle armor
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 17:28
And I hold my point that the "mounted/dismounted" toggle will be a total waste for Erlond's power set, you claim that Imladris will be the second horse-related faction after Rohan, I don't know how many inside information you have from the team. Imladris already have two heroes to fight alongside the cavalry, it doesn't need a third one. And I am pretty sure Imladris will rely on the infantry just as most other faction, cavalry will always be a support force in battlefield. Elrond should always fight alongside the main force of Imladris, following his fighting style from original game. The same reason why we shouldn't give Boromir a horse.

I don't see problem if Imladris will have three heroes with horses. Elrond is the leader of Imladris riders in movie. In addition, you can still choose If Elrond will lead infantry or riders.
Gondor is similar like Imladris, also has strong infantry and cavalry. Boromir does not needs a horse, because already Aragorn, Faramir, Gandalf and Imrahil have horses in Gondor. If Aragorn can have horse as powerful infantry hero, why not Elrond?  8-)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: ziqing am 16. Jul 2015, 17:33
Because it will take a precious power slot. I am not a huge fan for Aragorn's mounted either.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 17:50
just put 2 palantirs
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 16. Jul 2015, 17:53
The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Tienety am 16. Jul 2015, 17:57
The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Maybe he could have one or more different abilities on his horse. A few other heroes has a similar system. :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 18:22
I said I wouldn't agrue on the lore about the three ring anymore, I just want to mention the fact that the more power we associate with the three the more we violate the lore, that'all.

I don't like the name "restoration of Vilya" one bit, it is true all the three has the use of "healing and preservation", but Vilya has nothing particularly to do with healing, if it works for "restoration of Vilya" then we could also have "restoration of Nenya/Narya", if we have to associate power with Vilya, it should be something else. There are always speculations that Vilya could be used to control natural element to some extent, that's why I could accept the tornado power from the previous version to be related to Vilya. Maybe with more tactical use instead of purely destruction.


It's true that we are still talking about a game, but the lore should always be regarded as  the main source and inspiration of everything.
As you had rightly written before, the Three Rings were made with the purpose of slowing the ineluctable decay of the World and the flow of Time, allowing the Elves to remain for other more than 3 millennia in Middle Earth, having all their creations/realms (Rivendell and the Golden Wood) untainted by Time and evil influences.
These are fundamental things, and I think that they shouldn't be just taken as irrevelant elements.

Given these solid lore facts, Narya has already a supporting power, Nenya will indeed protect Lothlórien, and Vilya should be naturally focused on healing and restoring your units/heroes and your allies' ones, just like every weary stranger can find peace and calmness in Rivendell.

It's true that even Elrond has powerful magical powers on Nature, but he mainly uses them to protect Rivendell (even though it never suffered heavy assaults from evil creatures) and make it a holy and safe sanctuary/shelter, to the point of resembling the Splendour of Eressëa and Eldamar in Middle Earth (and it's an incredible and mighty ability, considering how dark and dangerous is the late Third Age).
Elrond only uses his powers in a 'violent' way when he saves Frodo, creating a flood, and this power is already implemented.
That's why the whirlwind power of Elrond, even though it is an iconic ability from BFME2, doesn't fit with his character, because he is not a sorcerer, and doesn't use magic in that way.

#OnlyGaladrielCan :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 19:13
About Vilya: I am considering a leadership or power related to the Elemental Mage of Imladris.
Just help us invent something more suitable for Vilya in order to correspond to the rest of elven rings, this thread is still open for discussion. :P

About armor: Have you considered relating his golden armor to Elladan and Elrohir? They could still enter the forge and strengthen Imladris heroes in 3.8.1, keep this function, and let them upgrade Elrond's hunting armor to golden battle armor
I don't know if it remains, but mainly - such function is for weapons and not for armour.

The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Exactly, in order to be easier to play and for balance as well. Mouth of Sauron, Gorthaur or Arnor prince have two palantirs only technically, but in reality it isn't second palantir as a advantage, but they simply need it for their roles - transformation palantir for Gorthaur, Dunedain/prince switch for Aranath etc ...  but in the game, there is no hero, who has two palantirs as a advantage, except of Sauron with the One Ring, but Sauron has something better. 8-)

I don't see problem if Imladris will have three heroes with horses. Elrond is the leader of Imladris riders in movie. In addition, you can still choose If Elrond will lead infantry or riders.
Gondor is similar like Imladris, also has strong infantry and cavalry. Boromir does not needs a horse, because already Aragorn, Faramir, Gandalf and Imrahil have horses in Gondor. If Aragorn can have horse as powerful infantry hero, why not Elrond?  8-)
Well, it's extremely strong argument. I completely agree. :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: LordMaus am 16. Jul 2015, 19:25
what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-61OZZg6AbAE/TmTu_rkQMQI/AAAAAAAAAXc/VsIwWI3LNto/s1600/threerings.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Jul 2015, 19:28
about the rings of power i think it will be best as an upgrade to enhance the camp somehow

what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-61OZZg6AbAE/TmTu_rkQMQI/AAAAAAAAAXc/VsIwWI3LNto/s1600/threerings.jpg)
the elfs in the picture is Círdan has Narya Gil-galad has Vilya and Galadriel has Nenya
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 16. Jul 2015, 19:42
what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty

I hope that you are talking about elven races or elven nationalities, because I suppose that is obvious who are bearers of Elven rings of power and where they are living. 8-| xD

It isn't easy to say.

Imladris -  last refuge of Noldor elves
Woodland realm - Sindar (Thranduil, Legolas) and Silvan elves (Non canon Tauriel for instance)
Lorien - Sindar (Celeborn) and Silvan elves and Gladys as the highest ranking member of Noldor in the Middle-Earth.

And concerning Lindon - Cirdan is Sindar, but I think that there are some Noldor elves as well.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jul 2015, 21:28


Imladris -  last refuge of Noldor elves
Woodland realm - Sindar (Thranduil, Legolas) and Silvan elves (Non canon Tauriel for instance)
Lorien - Sindar (Celeborn) and Silvan elves and Gladys as the highest ranking member of Noldor in the Middle-Earth.

And concerning Lindon - Cirdan is Sindar, but I think that there are some Noldor elves as well.

Good points, and furthermore:

Eressëa - Teleri (the same group of Sindar and Woodland Elves), most specifically Falmari.

Eldamar - Falmari, mostly Noldor (remnant of the Royal Family, guided by Galadriel's father Finarfin).

Valinor - A few Noldor, mostly Vanyar with Maiar and Valar  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 11:12
You are all forgetting something. There are three roles Elrond has in the lore. He is a healer par excellence. He is bearer of the most powerful of the elven rings. And he is the loremaster of the Noldor, in whose blood lingers the mighty power of the house of Fingolphin, of Elu, and of Melian the Maiar, the powerful sorceress who taught Galadrial the arts of sorcery.

Thus it does stand to reason that Elrond should have powerful sorceries, and there are two sources for "magic"in Tolkien. There are the natural abilities of the Maiar and to a lesser extent the elves, and then there is the learned knowledge of the Noldor. Finrod for instance engaged in a battle of sorcerous songs with Sauron, and Melian, kept the woodland realm more or less impervious to Melko/Melkor/Morgoth. I think it is important to remember that Rivendell is much like the woodland realm in beriland, and Elrond's powers should be like that, a powerful defensive endurance but like the veil of Melian, it should be tied to the buildings of Imaldras. Leave the tornado itself alone and instead move the flood to be a power of the Imaldras fortress that is used when Elrond is garrisoned inside. Ramp up the power a bit, but limit the range, to let Rivendell as a faction be capable of being a defensive faction. Rivendell as the last refuge should be just that, a faction that you bleed through the nose to overcome.

In a way consider Rivendell to be a counterpart to Lothlorien, Lothlorien passively resists and endures the changes of the world, but in Rivendell, there is an active fight back against change. Consider also, the major effect of Vilya on the world was that over Rivendell the stars were brighter. This is something considerably more powerful than Nenya merely resisting change, or Narya inspiring hope, this is turning back time!

For Vilya itself, let the power be that Elrond is able to know what moves, give him the omniscence power from Cirdan. This fits both thematically with Elrond and his powers of foresight, and with Elrond as a support hero.


Before you say anything about the relativeness between Galadrial and Elrond, consider the important distinction, when Tolkien discusses the might of Galadrial, he calls her the greatest of the Noldo left in Middle Earth. Elrond is not actually a Noldo. Most of his Elven blood is Telri. His father was the son of a man and a Noldo princess, however, his mother was the great granddaughter of Melian and Elu. Thus how can Elrond be a Noldo, if he is only quarter Noldo, quarter man, and half Grey Elf?

What does all this mean in relative terms, well consider all of this in conjunction. Elrond is the lorekeeper, the holder of the last refuge, and the eldest of those who bore the blood of children of Illuver. He was in wisdom unsurpassed. Wise in all lore is master Elrond. Is it to much to consider that he does have a role as a sorcerer on the field? Yes he does not tear down the walls of Dol Guldor, however, is that to say he is not capable? I like the tornado, it shows a homage to the idea that the lore master might actually be able to turn the world on it's head and it deserves to remain out of consideration for that. For all we know it might simply be a matter akin to Voldermort having powers that Dumbledore does not, it is not that they are not availiable, it is that Dumbledore is not willing to use them. Likewise, how can we know that if war really came a knocking on Elrond's precious refuge that he would not have struck out with all the collective knowledge of the mysteries of the ages he had collected.

On another note, a powerful suggestion for Elrond for vilya would be add a series of passive abilities, which share the one palantiar slot. These abilities decrease ability recharge times for all nearby units and heroes as well as increasing passive healing rates and periodically regenerate missing battalion members. Let this be a sign of Vilya pushing back time to increase the beauty and wonder of the world!

Oh and on the topic of the three rings, while the elven rings did not enhance the wearer, they did require the wearer to already possess power of their own.

Furthermore, you can see the three rings powers more along the lines of this"

Narya, the rekindler. Narya essentially is the fire that renews, much in the way a forest fire renews the land. It encourages the natural regrowth of what is already there.
In this way you see it with Gandalf and Cirdan, Cirdan gives the ring to Gandalf to rekindle the hearts of men, which implies it is to encourage the regrowth of what were the natural abilities of men.

Nenya, the endurer. Nenya is about being resistant to change, it is like water, no matter how much you interfere with it, it always remains the same.
Again this is visible in Lorien, which stands almost against time, it is not a matter of being able to resist change, it is matter of being almost immune to it, Lorien is like a place frozen in time.

Vilya- the renewer. Vilya represents the remaking of the old as new. In this way it is like the wind, or the air, they always remain, even the new will be as the old.
Vilya makes Rivendell the ancient world of the stars in the third age of the sun. It unamkes the darkness of arda marred to restore to middle earth the majesty of what once was. It is clearly the greatest of the three rings, and certainly represents the dearest dream of Celembrior, to remake the world of the elder days in the now. 
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 12:37

So much things to say about your comment... But I promise to synthesise a bit  xD

Elrond, along with his twin brother Elros, descends indeed from an extraordinary bloodline of legendary characters that have changed and eternally marked the First Age of Arda, and all the history of the World, since, as we know, from Elrond/Elros' bloodline has descended the mighty and legendary  Númenóreans, the ancestors of the people of Arnor and Gondor in the Third Age.
Elrond has in his blood the power and the spirit of the mighty House of Fingolfin of the Noldor (being him the grandson of Idril, daughter of Turgon, the King of Gondolin) and the one of the famous Edain Houses (from Tuor); on the side of his mother, then, Elrond descends from Beren and Lúthien, and thus indirectly from the legendary High King of the Teleri, Elwë, and even from the Maia Melian.
Elrond thus is indeed, as you wrote, one of the most powerful and wise character in Middle Earth, also for his difficult childhood as a prisoner/then-pupil of Maedhros and Maglor (sons of Fëanor), during the terrible and destructive (although victorious) War of Wrath , a war that he, as he says during the Council of Rivendell, has directly experienced.

So, having said all those crucial and important things, it's important, though, not to give and attribute to Elrond powers and knowledge that he doesn't have.
Before I start, I want to make a fundamental premise; as I wrote before, Elrond, for his incredible past and story, is indeed one of the most powerful and wisest beings in Middle Earth in the Third Age.
BUT, there are also other facts (both about the lore and the game's mechanics) that it is crucial to examine:

- Rivendell was indeed, as you wrote, made more beautiful and sacred by the action of Vilya, almost reaching the Splendour of Lands/Realms beyond the Sea like Eressëa or Eldamar, because Elrond's Ring is the most powerful among the Three, and has thus a greater effect.
But, apart the Splendour achieved, Rivendell was not under constant threat and attacks during the War of the Ring, and its defensive 'facilities' were not so extensive and 'impressive', since it was more a holy shelter of Calmness and Wisdom of a few Noldor that still lingered in the World.
Lothlórien, on the other hand, is a different matter.
The Golden Wood was made by the powers of Galadriel a Timeless and sacred sanctuary/realm of neverending Joy, but this place also remained completely untainted by any form of evil (from Mordor or Dol Guldur) for more than 3 millennia, because Galadriel constantly continued to fend off the evil powers of Sauron, that, instead, had spreaded throughout all the Lands of Middle Earth, directly or not.
The Sky on the Golden Wood, though, remained always calm and sunny, and the place itself became a sort of legend, almost a mysterious and quite unreachable place even for the Elves of Mirkwood themselves, as Legolas tells the Fellowship; while we couldn't say the same about Rivendell.
Galadriel (with her powers, not only with the ones of Nenya), then, protected and repulsed three heavy assaults from Dol Guldur, leading eventually her realm to Victory.

- Galadriel, for her essence, personal story and powers, is definitely more powerful, greater and wiser than Elrond.
Elrond was born at the end of the First Age, while Galadriel was born during the Years of the Trees in Valinor before the Sun and the Moon, as a direct member of the powerful and legendary Royal Family of the Noldor, personally taught by the Maiar and the Valar; she has personally experienced the apex of the Splendour of Valinor before its Darkening, and captured the source of this Splendour, the holy Light of the Two Trees, in her hair.
Elrond didn't see that Light and will never do it; even if Elrond descends from a legendary bloodline, this doesn't immediately grant him immense powers, since Power is also the sum of Experience, Past Memories and Age.
Galadriel, that already in Aman was indicated as the most powerful elf maiden of the Noldor (and we surely know that at that time the standards of Power were immensely high), she then became a scholar of Melian in Beleriand, was the only one member of the Noldorin Royal Family to survive the War of the Jewels and her powers gradually increased during the Second and the Third Age.
Her natural powers are thus far greater than the ones of Elrond, because his powers are different, focused more on Healing/Restoration, rather than direct Protection or unleashing destructive natural powers with Magic.
The line of Tolkien you referred to is very indicative and essential, Galadriel is the greatest of the Noldor,reaching also the Might and Importance of Fëanor himself; she is, according Tolkien's words, definitely stronger than Elrond.

- Given these fundamental facts, we in fact want to change Elrond a bit, focusing more on his healing Magic and military ability of a leader, rather than natural Magic.
That's why a mount and different powers of Vylia seem to me more appropriate and very suitable for him.

Sorry for the wall of text  xD

#OnlyGaladrielCan :P

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_Throws_Down_the_Walls_of_Dol_Guldur.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 12:47
And overall we have "Lord of the rings" section for such debate.
These walls of texts really won't help us to invent great concept for Elrond. 8-|

Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 13:19
And overall we have "Lord of the rings" section for such debate.
These walls of texts really won't help us to invent great concept for Elrond. 8-|

Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:

I know, I'm sorry.
I promise that, from now on, I will religiously stick to concepts and game's mechanics  :)

That GIF of Elrond looks very familiar to me  :D


But, if you look closely, there is, after the wall of text, a tiny and small paragraph about Elrond's concept and game's mechanics, and the lore connects everything  xD

Zitat
- Given these fundamental facts, we in fact want to change Elrond a bit, focusing more on his healing Magic and military ability of a leader, rather than natural Magic.
That's why a mount and different powers of Vylia seem to me more appropriate and very suitable for him.

Zitat
Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/44e6f985410f7bac7d8818b4368b8171/tumblr_nh7k6tkiVy1qemcawo1_500.gif)

That's the proper picture that sums everything between Golden Elrond and Seaweed Galadriel  :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 13:31
See my point was actually, that there is this discussion as to removing the Tornado power from Elrond, hence what I was responding to.

Furthermore, your simply wrong to claim that Galadrial is more wise than Elrond, hermeneutically speaking Tolkien in using the term wise is seeking to infer learned, rather than experience. This is notable in how he describes the leaders of the west as "The Wise" and how the Valar themselves are also referred to as such.

Elrond then of whom it said expressly that "wise in all lore is master Elrond" should be considered from the pen of Tolkien as the most learned of the Elves left. 
This is significant in that it means that as the lord of the refuge of the elves, it is likely that Elrond is well learned in the sorceries of the Noldor.

In respect to Galadrial and Elrond, that has to do with my other point as to the nature of magic in Arda. There is a natural power that Elrond is hinted to have inherited (Foresight from Melian) or learned sorceries, which to be honest is the kind that Galadrial has acquired from her tutelage from Melian and from her time in Aman. Her natural qualities incline her to a greater level of mental insight, but not necessarily the telepathy of the movies.

For a concept however for Elrond, these are important elements to consider. It is much to easy to let Peter Jackson's images confuse us to the nature of the characters, and ultimately the written work of Tolkien must trump Jackson's imagery.

To that end, I propose, Elrond the Wise, Loremaster of Rivendell and Holder of Vilya.

First ability. The teachings of Elrond; aoe ability, adds a small amount of xp to heroes and Battalions in a radius.

Second Ability; Vilya's renewal.; Vilya the greatest of the elven rings, passively decreases the cooldowns of all heros and battalions within a set radius. This ability gains extra effects at level 5, 7 and 10. At five it increases the passive healing rate of heros and adds passive healing to battalions. At 7 it revives one dead man per battalion every 15 seconds. At level 10 it adds a passive fear resistance and adds an experience rate boost.   

Third Ability; Tornado.; as the game.

Fourth Ability; restoration; as the game.

Fifth Ability, Foresight; Elrond has total sight of the map. In the lore, the gift of foresight was something that Elrond was blessed with from his Great Grandmother.   

Additionally, when Elrond reaches level 10 and so long as Elrond is within a short radius, the Imaldris capital building gains a flood power. This can only be used within a limited radius and while Elrond remains close to the base.

Elrond wielding the waters of the Bruinen is something he can only do in a fixed area because he has embedded his power into it. Like Melian and her Girdle, it is located around Rivendell.

This concept of Elrond then is towards a view of him as being the spine of an Imaldris army, he either makes it endure, or gives it the power to cut through the enemy.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 13:47

Please, do not tempt me  :P

I think, if you want, that we can more easily discuss lore matters on the 'Lord of the Rings' section of the 'Prancing Pony'  :)
But, just a hint, there a lot of references in LOTR (books) of 'telepathic' abilities of Galadriel; when, for example, she guesses Frodo's questions about the Rings of Power, when she telepathically 'communicates' with Gandalf, Celeborn and Elrond during their return from the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, or, most importantly, when (as also Haldir tells the Fellowship) she constantly telepathically fights against Sauron, each other trying to reveal the other's plans, and Galadriel always succeeds  :)

About the Elrond's 'Tornado', I recognise that it is an iconic power of his from BFME2, but it doesn't really fit, because the power involving the flood is already implemented, and I would like that the ability of conjuring whirlwinds and storms remains a characteristic of Galadriel.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 13:53
My issue is that the flood does not fit. The flood is something which needs to be moved from Elrond as it is only possible in a limit geography. Hence why I suggest tying it to the Fortress using a leadership aura to trigger and enable it.

Read the passage from Fellowship of the ring, Gandalf when he explains it to Frodo, talks about how Elrond has put his power into the river.

Also, this discussion of Elrond as a military leader, he is not a military leader in the Third Age. Glorfidel is the leader of the armies of Imaldris, Elrond instead is information, intelligence and healing.

Move Elrond's powers then to things which support the army which I am advocating, and that is something the Tornado does. Mechanically, it rarely kills anything, but it does break up the horde. This is a powerful strategic ability which denies favourable position to the enemy, and removing it will likely have a powerful macro effect on Imaldris gameplay.  To be honest, if you want to talk about things not fitting, then remove Gandalf's word of Power!

On another note, Imaldris not under constant siege, interesting how you more or less ignore the founding of Rivendell, and the whole mess with the Witch King. Yes in the late Third Age, Lothlorien is dealing with Dol Guldor, but Galadrial had not been in the Golden Wood until the Third Age. Rivendell in contrast was fighting for survival after the ruin of Eregion, and against the Witch King as well. In both instances Rivendell was under siege for an extended period.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 14:32
Zitat
Also, this discussion of Elrond as a military leader, he is not a military leader in the Third Age. Glorfidel is the leader of the armies of Imaldris, Elrond instead is information, intelligence and healing.

Elrond has always been a military leader (being at the same time a healer/counselor) since his 'early' days as a herald of Gil-galad; from the Last Alliance to his alliance with Men against Angmar and, then, Mordor.

Zitat
On another note, Imaldris not under constant siege, interesting how you more or less ignore the founding of Rivendell, and the whole mess with the Witch King. Yes in the late Third Age, Lothlorien is dealing with Dol Guldor, but Galadrial had not been in the Golden Wood until the Third Age. Rivendell in contrast was fighting for survival after the ruin of Eregion, and against the Witch King as well. In both instances Rivendell was under siege for an extended period.

I referred to the Third Age (especially the War of the Ring), and thus the founding of Rivendell is excluded; and I wrote 'constantly', that means for quite the entire Third Age, while the war between Rivendell and Angmar was a 'part'/'section' of the more extensive war between Men and Angmar (it was a successful intervention of Gondor that saved the day).
Lothlórien had instead to directly deal with all the threats and evil presences that began to establish in Mirkwood long before the War of the Ring; and, in the War of the Ring (when Rivendell was completely safe), Galadriel personally and directly led her realm to Victory.

Zitat
Move Elrond's powers then to things which support the army which I am advocating, and that is something the Tornado does. Mechanically, it rarely kills anything, but it does break up the horde. This is a powerful strategic ability which denies favourable position to the enemy, and removing it will likely have a powerful macro effect on Imaldris gameplay.  To be honest, if you want to talk about things not fitting, then remove Gandalf's word of Power!

Elrond is a Hero/Units Supporter, not a Mass Slayer like Gandalf; the difference is important.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 17. Jul 2015, 14:51
There have been lots of really great ideas thrown around in this thread but sometimes I feel as though people occasionally place lore-faithfulness over having good gameplay.  Some systems are unnecessarily complex. If Elrond is a unit/hero supporter all, or at least 4 of his abilities should follow that.  I like Eldalf's suggestion though I would replace tornado with Flood (the idea to have Elrond use flood from the fortress is reminiscent of Sarumans system and just another burdensome mechanic).  And I would remove Foresight (Cirdan already has it) and replace it with a level 5 armor buff accompanied by a change in appearance to his brown-silver armor.  Vilyas  Renewal should have its exact effects tweaked but the base idea is very good and very fitting for Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 15:01
Elrond really needs to have foresight, or something related to it though.

Elrond's gift of foresight is something which is quite central to his character. I would sooner see Cirdan lose foresight than Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 15:08
There have been lots of really great ideas thrown around in this thread but sometimes I feel as though people occasionally place lore-faithfulness over having good gameplay.  Some systems are unnecessarily complex. If Elrond is a unit/hero supporter all, or at least 4 of his abilities should follow that.  I like Eldalf's suggestion though I would replace tornado with Flood (the idea to have Elrond use flood from the fortress is reminiscent of Sarumans system and just another burdensome mechanic).  And I would remove Foresight (Cirdan already has it) and replace it with a level 5 armor buff accompanied by a change in appearance to his brown-silver armor.  Vilyas  Renewal should have its exact effects tweaked but the base idea is very good and very fitting for Elrond.

This is exactly, with maybe some differences, what I'm trying to express.
Given Elrond's role, it would be more appropriate a concept more focused on his military abilities as a leader, and I totally agree about the flood (that is already implemented, by the way) and the different representation of Vilya's powers, rather than a lore and role problematic whirlwind.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 15:17
The issue though is the flood and the whirlwind preform different distinct roles. Flood is a knockback + damage effect, Whirlwind is a persistent area denial + damage+knockback. I feel that switching the whirlwind for the flood would negatively effect the meta use of the abilities. Game balance has to count for something here. Furthermore, why does Elrond need to be the army leader? Lore wise he is not, not since the second age has Elrond marched to war. Not even when his wife was taken by orcs.

Flood is a useless ability in my view, it has too short a range, is negligible on the damage front, and does not cause enough disruption. My suggestion with moving it to the fortress with an aura to enable it, would enable for the damage and radius to be boosted as it becomes a defensive power rather than one that can be used aggressively.

To elaborate a bit more, if Elrond is a supporter hero, why should he be close enough to the general melee to be able to effectively use flood? Should he not be somewhere a bit more withdrawn to better direct the flow and apply his buffs?

Mechanically, I feel that heroes roles should reflect their lore. In this sense, Elrond as the hero and unit supporter thematically does reflect that. So to does the whirlwind power. Flood in it's current incarnation does nothing well, and is a wasted power slot.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 16:34
elrond made the flood but gandal made the horse head
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 17:11
Elrond made a flood, out of a river in which he had invested his powers. It was something he could only have done with the Bruinien. Consider the ring, it was Sauron's because he had placed his essence within it. Elrond had done something similar to Rivendell. Whether the ring played a role in this is debatable, but the flood was something that was limited to the river surrounding Rivendell. It is why I feel it does not fit for Elrond to have it as a power. Far better for the whirlwind power that is nominally tied to vilya.

Not to mention that mechanically the flood power feels odd. I know in 3.8.1 I did not want Elrond to be leading my armies from the front, I wanted him as a backline hero, adding experience and restoring my heroes. Even should he be made into an army leader hero, it makes no sense to have him on the front line. His hero supporter role is such that like Galadrial he should be towards the back, healing and buffing the forces you have. The Whirlwind power supports this role, it holds a flank of the battle, either denying the ground to the enemy or by disrupting their formation. I would even support a unit summon over the flood on a pure mechanical level as that would preform the same macro function.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 18:05
elrond is a good fighter and a good leader and he is the best healer in ME so i think he his skills needs to be a mix of those leadership healing and the flood i think its a signature skill of his
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 17. Jul 2015, 19:08
My problem with the flood vs whirlwind is the gameplay of the two. The flood does not fufill the same gameplay role. The flood in the books is a power cast from well outside line of sight and would be an army killer ability, is this what you are advocating here? Three measly water horses from direct line of sight in no way matches with the lore, and in no way are equivalent to the gameplay tactics of the tornado. Lord Elrond in the Edain mod is a hero support and army supporter. Healing, Foresight, experience gift all contribute to that. A leadership that aura passively reduces cooldowns and boosts healing would fit well with the powers of Vilya. That leaves one last power. This power should be a strategic power, one that can change the course of the battle with the correct application. Maybe something like the Arnor spellbook flood would fit here, with toned down damage and increased cast range, but a short range flood like he had in 3.8.1 is utterly useless to say the least. It does not contribute to the hero's abilities in support, nor does it make sense with the heroes role in the battlefield. He is supposed to be a semi-backline hero not changing into battle. Unless you decouple cast range from the spell, flood just becomes a spell you only use as a last resort, and that seems kinda odd.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 20:04
well i think it should be a long ranged flood with horses and a lot of dmg
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 17. Jul 2015, 20:11
Don't worry, flood will be implemented as a Elrond skill (smaller effect) and as a ultimate spell in the spellbook (large effect).
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 20:46


Then, the second proposal would be a good compromise.
My point, infact, is that I totally agree with the concept of the flood (lore accurate and characteristic for Imladris) and the flood itself is indeed an useful power that can be used to support your units, as a disruptive attack that counters the enemy ranks.
And Vilya would thus be represented as a powerful 'tool' of healing/restoring for your units/heroes and allies.

My main concern is about the whirlwind for Elrond, not really lore accurate, that should remain an iconic characteristic of Galadriel  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 17. Jul 2015, 22:14
galadriel needs to have the tornado to be more unique and lore friendly
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2015, 22:19
galadriel needs to have the tornado to be more unique and lore friendly

Yes, as the Dark Queen; but also her normal form will use whirls/storm against structures as a primary attack.
So, I would like that this ability remains an unique and iconic power of her  :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 00:01
well and a white horse maybe......... xD
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 18. Jul 2015, 00:45
Back to Elrond please. ;)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2015, 00:45
Warrior Princess Galadriel  8-)

(http://elven.the3rdage.net/Images/galadriel9.jpg)

Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 18. Jul 2015, 00:50
Well, this is about different story. 8-|


And here, we are talking about Elrond's armour, I have to say.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 01:08
(http://www.magic4walls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/queen-war-white-horse-winter-suffering-sodier-snow-painting.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2015, 01:12
Impressive, she really looks like a Valkyrie  :)

Now, really, let's return to the poor Elrond and his golden armour  :P
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 02:49
ow yes him
 well i rly want the golden armor form dol gudur
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 18. Jul 2015, 05:14
Elrond Short Range flood is a waste. Give him a unit summon instead. Why do you want a short range spell on a hero who ostensibly shouldn't be in a position to use it?

Furthermore, there is no lore to support Galadrial with a tornado in the books.

There is some lore of her casting down the walls of Dol Guldor, but that would suggest more than anything an anti-magic spell, as it was known that the walls of the great fortresses were held up as much by enchantment as by stone. Furthermore, someone was talking about Gandalf's word of power as iconic from the games, well That is what the tornado is for Elrond

So I ask, what the hell does Elrond's flood in it's current format add to the of Elrond? Go beyond your Galadrial fetish, and consider what does it add?

I also ask you to consider my other point, the overall gameplay, If we want to battle this out in lore, then I would say that according to lore there is little justification in any offensive spells aside from shafts of light.

Also, Elrond as a War-Lord is against the lore. After he essentially takes the role of the leader of the Noldor in the West, he does not ride any more into battle. He becomes the supporting figure, with Glorfidel taking that role.

I would have you consider that the relationship between the Glorfidel and Elrond in the armies of Rivendell are much akin to the relationship between General Paton and Eisenhower. One directs, guides, supplies and informs the other, while the other is a powerfully charismatic and personally powerful individual who leads forces into battle.

To get the topic of the golden armour, I feel it is superfluous, there is no direct need to give him more sets of armour or to make him more powerful in direct battle. These are not his roles anymore. Much as Galadrial had given up the role of the warrior princess, so had Elrond given up the role of the War-Lord. Instead both maintained the defenses of their realm through mystical means and utilized their respective means of far-viewing (Galadrial her mirror) (Elrond his innate talent) to coordinate and strive against the forces of evil.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 18. Jul 2015, 09:10
Why would Elrond's flood be a short-ranged spell? It can be changed, it is up to the team. For instance it can stay as a short Area of Effect spell while being cast-able from afar. In that case it would support exactly the same goal as you argue the tornado supports while being more true to the character.

I think you're right about the horse though: Elrond would hardly ever raid into battle, unlike Aragorn who is more susceptible to do so.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 18. Jul 2015, 09:26
I would be more than happy with the flood gaining an increased cast range, and perhaps an area increase if it came to it, but I would also have concerns about the area denial function. I know for myself, I do not use the tornado to kill an enemy army, I use it to control the way the opposing player deploys theirs. Perhaps with a ramp up of the damage and the cast range the flood could instead play a similar role.

There is however a significant element of iconism in the tornado spell. It has always been a staple of Elrond in the BFME game series, and to remove it from him would in some respect be like taking word of power from Gandalf. That said, I do not agree with word of power for gandalf even existing, but it is an argument worth considering. If other heroes have powers for the sake of being "Iconic" then should not the same reasoning be applied here.

We can even apply that to Galadrial, from when do we derive this argument of Galadrial wielding the power of the storm if not from BFME and it's imagery? Nothing in the writing of Tolkien alludes to her as being the Storm Queen, except the use of allegory in the mirror sequence.

Anyway that is my couple of primary concerns. Thematically, it is not sufficient to say that Elrond was not capable of sorcery, it is clear that within the boarders of Imaldris he much like Galadrial with Lothlorien was the primary defensive mechanism. Unlike the woodland realm, it is clear that the Golden wood and Rivendell were both protected by enchantments.

Furthermore as an army leader, Elrond had not marched to war since the Last Alliance. By the War of the Ring he was consultative rather than martial.

These taken together should see Elrond as a backline hero. Where Galadrial is a bulding destroyer/supporter, Elrond should be a healer/buffer/supporter. His powers need to reflect his engagement with enabling others to make direct war which he himself no longer does.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 18. Jul 2015, 10:17
I guess it is a matter of representation then. I just don't see Elrond mastering whirlwinds, but I do picture Galadriel summoning tornadoes or Gandalf being able to one time destroy armies ; regardless of the lore and what Tolkien did or did not write down.

Still, I definitely share your backline Elrond point of view. I believe his skillset must be thought so.


EDIT: It's not really that I don't want Elrond to summon tornados. It's rather that I prefer Galadriel to have this ability, and I think there are other powers that would suit better for him (for instance: foresight, wisdom, leadership, flood)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 18. Jul 2015, 11:07
The Istari thing is one which has always really annoyed me. In every instance, Tolkien wrote that it was expressly forbidden for them to come arrayed in power, that by the nature of their incarnation their nature itself was limited in the extreme. The only point any of that changes is with Gandalf the White, in which his mandate is changed, rather than being the one to inspire resistance he is now given leave to actively resist and we see that with his weaponized beams of light. Word of Power is something which directly goes against his very mission.

But I digress. The topic of the Tornado is one I feel probably is far to flashy for the setting. To be honest, magic in Lord of the Rings is either some kind of technology or item based enchantment, or is wielded in nature by imbuning ones soul in the land in which you dwell. The only instance in which we see a direct combat spell is when Sauron sets Gil-Galad aflame.

However, the BFME games have their own iconic spells and flashyness. Elrond has had the tornado for years and when I think of Elrond in this game I think of the area denying support hero, who empowers other elves and forces enemy armies to collapse on a flank to let the armies of the elves outmaneuver their enemies. If we want to talk about getting back to the intent of Tolkien, then we need to be willing to do this consistently. Likewise, if gameplay is to be the higher calling we need to do that consistently so to if we want to talk about iconism.

Anyway,  I am going to give another draft run of powers.

1st ability, gift of experience. Elrond is to the race of men what Cirdan has been to the elves, he gives a boost of experience to heroes battalions in a small radius.

2nd Ability; Vilya's Restoration; Passive aura that increases in power with Elrond's level. Vilya the greatest of the three rings restores the world into a pristine state. At level three, this ability increases the passive healing rate of all heroes and battalions in an area. At level seven this ability additionally enables Battalions to restore one dead member every 15 seconds. At level 10 this ability additionally reduces the cooldown of abilities by 25% for every battalion and hero in the radius.

3rd Ability; Restoration; This ability heals heroes and units by 50% within the radius and refreshes the cooldown of their abilities.

4th Ability; Foresight; Elrond is possessed of a powerful natural gift of foresight, this ability reveals the entire map for a period of time.

5th Ability; Waters of the Bruienen; A somewhat weakened version of the Anor spellbook power, this ability will knock down and wash away units in a moderate radius, with a large cast range and cooldown.

This Elrond is thus the hero you keep behind the army and he grows in power over time. With the aura, you have the option to also include some armour passives for Elrond himself, and perhaps it might be worth considering switch restoration and the aura's name. Instead association restoration with the direct application of Elrond's ring, and let the aura represent his healing prowess.
Either way, in this sense we have a firm backline hero, who provides healing and strategic support to the army of Rivendell.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 18. Jul 2015, 14:29
i like that :)
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2015, 21:37

You wrote really great lines about the nature of Magic in Tolkien and the particularity of Lothlórien as a 'magically' protected realm (and these aspects will be kind of represented in the Edain Mod), and I totally agree with you.
But there is also something more to add, and I will try not to exceed in boring lore facts stating, also because I feel I have written on MU a ton of posts about this topic.

- No one has ever fetishised or is fetishising Galadriel, since her incredible Might and Importance in Middle Earth's affairs are often hinted at and explained by Tolkien; and, trust me, LOTR and the Silmarillion already give you in their entirety really solid facts and absolute statements about her, as a character and a hero.

- It's true, in the books it is never clearly explained how Galadriel has destroyed Dol Guldur, or what kind of devices she used in her action.
BUT it is easily comprehensible, and the BFME2/Edain Mod solution (whirlwind and storm) is honestly the most reasonable among all the other probabilities; not to mention that the 'relationship' between Galadriel and Storms has always been an iconic element from the very BFME2.
Also, it is fundamental reporting that Galadriel not only did she throw down the Walls of Dol Guldur (and she could have probably used, as you mentioned, a spell that nullified the magical boundaries of the fortress' structures, resembling what Lúthien did in the First Age), but it is also stated that she violently cleansed the fortress and all the surrounding woods by Sauron's memory and the filth of all the evil presences that had been there for centuries, and a Storm is the most immediate and logical way that I can picture in mind.
The MOST REASONABLE explanation that I can give you, of Galadriel's ability involving storms, is the very deep conception of MAGIC of Tolkien.
The elements that you mentioned are crucial, being also the quite exact and 'reflected' thing that happens in Valinor, and the source of the Bliss of this realm (the presence of the Valar).
But, there is something more; another fundamental representation and display of Magic is the ability, of powerful beings, of modifying and manipulating the Weather of the World on a larger scale, according to their will.
And Galadriel and Sauron (the two most powerful beings in Middle Earth in the Third Age) do it all the time, the latter creating an eternal dark Sky of ashes upon Mordor, and the former maintaining a neverending calm and sunny Sky upon Lothlórien; Galadriel, also, long before the War of the Ring, created an enchanted Mist to protect Eorl, the ancestor of the Rohirrim, and his army from the dark influence of Dol Guldur.
Thus, given these essential facts, the ability of Galadriel of conjuring whirlwinds/storms, as also Adrigabbro wrote, can totally be regarded as lore acceptable and iconic  :)

- I think that the problem with Elrond and whirlwinds consists, apart from the lore problematics, in his role as a Hero/Units Supporter.
Galadriel's primary attack against structures (whirlwind) and Gandalf's 'Word of Power' are totally justified by their roles as, respectively, Building Destroyer and Mass Slayer; Galadriel is also a Hero Supporter, and that's why her ultimate level 10 power (Nenya) will focus on Protection.
Given Elrond's role as a supporter hero, he thus should have the healing/restoration powers of Vilya (extended also to the Allies) as his level 10 power, and his flood power would be enough for his role and nature.
A whirlwind as an ability of his, also placed as a level 10 power, doesn't just fit.

Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 18. Jul 2015, 23:24
I've talked with Tienety about it ... quite a lot. xD
And it seems that we have, or we will have some interesting proposal for Elrond, which we will suggest together.
During next days I'll present it.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 03:37
The reason I would put the flood as a level 10 power is to justify increasing it's power. Elrond's use of the Bruinen is one of the most powerful direct applications of
"magic" in the entire series. Comparable easily to how Galadrial destroys an army of orcs during the march of Erol with a Golden Mist. Thus should it not be something memorable in the game? Let it be the pinnacle of his power, a power that would collapse an army flank entirely, how is that not support?
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Jul 2015, 14:13
The reason I would put the flood as a level 10 power is to justify increasing it's power. Elrond's use of the Bruinen is one of the most powerful direct applications of
"magic" in the entire series. Comparable easily to how Galadrial destroys an army of orcs during the march of Erol with a Golden Mist. Thus should it not be something memorable in the game? Let it be the pinnacle of his power, a power that would collapse an army flank entirely, how is that not support?

Ok, even though I would prefer more Vilya's powers of healing/restoration to be his ultimate power, I can accept the concept of the flood (as I also kept on writing in my comments) as his destructive power; I just don't like the idea of him capable of conjuring whirlwinds, and tying this power to Vilya, as it happened in the Edain Mod 3.8.1.

My mentioning of the significant aid of Galadriel to Eorl and his army was mainly meant to show that it is possible, and very lore accurate, inferring that she has the capability of modifying and manipulating the Weather of the World, and its meteorological phenomena.
But Galadriel's aid to Eorl is clearly not the most important manifestation of her usage of Magic in the Third Age.
Elrond created a flood to defeat the 9 Ringwraiths; Galadriel repulsed three heavy and consecutive assaults from Dol Guldur, and then personally destroyed the fortress and cleansed entirely southern Mirkwood from centuries of evil, making grow a Mallorn Tree on its purified soil.
The display of Galadriel's Magic and powers is honestly and logically greater than Elrond's one  :)


Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 14:24
Tolkien describes Galadriel as
Zitat
the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth

But this is my last comment concerning her. This thread is about her son-in-law.
Titel: Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Jul 2015, 14:45
Tolkien describes Galadriel as
Zitat
the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth



Yes, a very lapidary and absolute statement.
If it had been so simple, I would have not written the walls of text that I wrote  xD

Zitat
But this is my last comment concerning her. This thread is about her son-in-law.

Me too, I promise  :)
Otherwise:


Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 15:22
By the way, the first page was updated. :)
Thanks to Tienety for some advice how to deal with Elrond. :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 15:51
Really, a mount toggle? In place of foresight? That is to say the least an absolute waste.  Elrond's Foresight is one of his most dominant attributes. It is a power he possesses by virtue of his descent, much the same way as the keener insight into minds is a power that Galadrial possesses. Furthermore, the experience boosting leadership is also lackluster. A healing leadership might work, but there are four dominant characteristics of Elrond within Tolkien, Loremaster, Healer, Bearer of the Vilya and the gift of foresight. At least let the passive aura reflect the healing prowess, and dual purpose the experience gift ability to affect heroes and battalions. But seriously, Foresight is one of the key features of Elrond in the lore, to take that from him for the sake of a mere horse is absurd.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 16:06
Foresight is one of the key features of Elrond in the lore
Definitely not.
Yes, maybe, but it does not fit to his role, because foresight ability (former Elrond's spell from vanilla game) will have Galdor as a scout hero, which is quite fitting for scout, and don't have to forget Cirdan's last skill. This is the same case like whirlwind - Alatar has whirlwind and lightbringers will have whilwind as well, it means that for Elrond it won't be unique exactly like foresight skill.
Elrond will be (and always was in Edain) Lord of Imladris on the battlefield and not guy with bathrobe somewhere background.

to take that from him for the sake of a mere horse is absurd
Definitely not, except of arguments for this above ... it's also way as nerfed him at least, because either way he is still extremely useful (I rather don't want to say OP) and maybe more useful than Gandy, Gladys, Witch king, etc ... I think. 8-|

By the way Eldalf - especially for you we upgraded skill on level one, according to your arguments in discussion, we also think that his flood is iconic and deserves something better. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 18:06
But Elrond's foresight is more integral to him than Galadrial's mirror. It would bug me to the point I would need to mod it just to not be irritated by it and as a result I would no longer be able to play the mod online. Elrond's gift of foresight is entirely crucial to how he became the lord of Rivendell. It is hinted in some of the stuff that it was only by virtue of this gift that he was able to guide Gil-Galad into seeing Annatar as Sauron. Take the power from Cirdan give it to Elrond, far more fitting...

One thing about Elrond's flood, take the silly horses out of it. Those were something added by Gandalf and they kinda look absurd.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 18:22
It would bug me to the point I would need to mod it just to not be irritated by it and as a result I would no longer be able to play the mod online.
Sorry, but as a Edain moderator I have to deny such stupid argument, because in that case it will be only your problem. If I should think this way in general, so I wouldn't do anything.
I really do not know what should write to you right now, because I am completely shocked.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 19. Jul 2015, 18:27
I support your idea completely!
Elrond should have a Mount since he is a Noble and Famous Elven Lord and beign abel to mount symbolizes that!About the Power of his Ring of Power I like the concepts of all 3 to differ and him geting the healing it will represnt his way of living and leading trying to pretect his kin from any harm in Imladris! :) About his Armor looks I agree that he should have first his AuJ Armor and alter LV 10 BoFA Armor from DG as for his Last Alliance Armor its is most fiting for him in the Spell Last Alliance!Since he whore it so many thousands years ago and is kinda outdated if I may say it that way!While his Hobbit Movie Armors represnt what he used during the Third Age in which the timeline is set and I think it feels right this way and is more fiting for him to use those Armos! :) But instead his Skill to Give Exp to a hero I think he should have his Foresight Ability which he has in the MOvies too! :)
So basicly I am 101% (I added teh 1 on purposse not by mistake this tiem Tiberius :D ) support you on your ideas about Elrond and the Elven Rings! :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 18:47
Well my argument is that the lore itself puts tremendous focus onto that aspect of Elrond, his foresight is one of the things that enabled him to so well serve Gil-Galad as a counselor, It also had other powerful applications in the second age, to do with the alliance with Numenor.

"Thus Narsil came in due time to the hand of Valandil, Isildur’s heir, in Imladris; but the blade was broken and its light was extinguished, and it was not forged anew. And Master Elrond foretold that this would not be done until the Ruling Ring should be found again and Sauron should return; but the hope of Elves and Men was that these things might never come to pass."

It is even hinted that his support for Frodo taking the ring to Mordor was based on an instance of foresight as well.

In this sense, some of the most important actions of Elrond in the Lord of the Rings books are actions he does from his ability to perceive what shall be. He makes ready to reforge Narsil, he sides with Frodo as ring-bearer, he calls together the kindred of the Dunedain to form the Grey Company and sends them hence. These are all actions that indicate an unnatural ability of prelopsis.

In Tolkien's letters he talks of how Elrond “saw many things and read many hearts” and so it would seem that other than as a healer the primary role of Elrond is as a soothsayer.

That is why I have such an emotive reaction over this, removing the ability is a substantial departure from the lore. It would be one thing to say let's remove all heroes abilities that reveal the map, but your not, you are instead talking about removing it from an individual who has one of the greatest claims to it.

In fact, when Gandalf talks about the limits of foresight, it is not himself, or Saruman, or even Galadrial he refers to, it is to Elrond. Within the universe itself amongst the wise, it is to Elrond that we have a reference to the greatest level of foresight and predilection towards prophecy.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 19. Jul 2015, 18:57

Great work, Tiberius and Tienety, and a very smart and useful type of integration between your former two concepts.

Just one thing, I am concerned about the flood.
I really like its concept, and I want it to be implemented, but I'm not sure if the Edain Team would accept it; shouldn't a level 1 power remain a 'moderately weak' and basic power for all the duration of the game?
If it gets stronger and enhanced, wouldn't there be a risk of overpowering?
I would then consider also a gradual slowing of the restoring time of the power, in the course of the levelling up of Elrond.

Anyway, I like the concept in its entirety, and, most importantly, the correct and lore accurate display of the powers of the Three Rings (Vilya in this case).
My motto is: anything but whirlwinds  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 19. Jul 2015, 18:58
I agree with Eldalf ; it would be nonsense to claim playing a Tolkien game and giving foresight to Gildor but not to Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 19:04
shouldn't a level 1 power remain a 'moderately weak' and basic power for all the duration of the game?
It isn't necessary, many heroes have some progress and we wanted something unique and iconic for him.

If it gets stronger and enhanced, wouldn't there be a risk of overpowering?
Logically there must be some normal values for damage ... and there won't be any crucial differences concerning damage while Elrond's leveling so definitely I am not afraid - single whirlwind created by normal hero may cause more balance problems on the battlefield. xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 19. Jul 2015, 19:08
well his damage wont make him Aragorn so I tihnk there is no  fear of overpowering him! Tienity and Tiberius has really made a excellnet concept about Elrond,as I said the only thing I tihnk he should have is his Foresgiht instead of giving Heroes XP but rather than tha I am with them all the way!
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 19:09
shouldn't a level 1 power remain a 'moderately weak' and basic power for all the duration of the game?
It isn't necessary, many heroes have some progress and we wanted something unique and iconic for him.

If it gets stronger and enhanced, wouldn't there be a risk of overpowering?
Logically there must be some normal values for damage ... and there won't be any crucial differences concerning damage while Elrond's leveling so definitely I am not afraid - single whirlwind created by normal hero may cause more balance problems on the battlefield. xD

it would be nonsense to claim playing a Tolkien game and giving foresight to Gildor but not to Elrond.
Just tell me:
1) Which ability has to be removed from Elrond in order to have foresight?
2) Which effect of foresight?
3) And what will be new ability for Gildor as a scout hero?
4) If you want Cirdan's ability (he reveals the whole map) - what will be his last ability for his unit support role?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 19. Jul 2015, 19:14
Cirdan could get a debuff ability. Give him something like elven mists which debuffs the damage done. It strengthens his connection to the sea, and Cirdan has a very powerful relationship with Ulmo. Alternatively, Cirdan was the foster-father of Gil-Galad, and it is likely that he would have also done a similar thing for Elrond and Elros. Why not give Cirdan the experience gift to heroes, Cirdan was the mentor for the elves as the eldest one on middle earth, Elrond was a mentor to men.

On the topic of which skill to replace on Elrond, replace the either the mount or the hero experience boost. If you are going with an experience boost aura, then having a direct increase of experience by active power would be redundant.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 19. Jul 2015, 19:23
I think he may lose the Hero XP Boost!As for what should his Forsight do,hmm may be you can use it on an Enemy Hero and see what he can or on Enemy Battalion!?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 19. Jul 2015, 19:23
Hmmm ... as for Gildor, I don't know if it would end up cool, but how about some spell that would remind of the journey to the West? In the LOTR movie I believe he is the guy who walks by Arwen's side before she decides to go back and stay.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 19. Jul 2015, 23:38
Cirdan could get a debuff ability. Give him something like elven mists which debuffs the damage done. 
But it's still elven mist which will be in the Lorien. It means that won't be unique for Cirdan, but mainly - he isn't debuffer or interferer (like Mouth of Sauron etc.) who weakens enemies, but he is unit supporter who supports them.

On the topic of which skill to replace on Elrond, replace the either the mount or the hero experience boost. If you are going with an experience boost aura, then having a direct increase of experience by active power would be redundant.
Active experience boost is for heroes vs passive leadership is for units.

I think he may lose the Hero XP Boost!
It's his iconic ability which definitely will stay. It's more accurate (Elrond's council, Elrond advice about everything). By the way - if he loses such ability his role of hero supporter will be disrupted (because there will remain only refresh ability for hero skill sets).

how about some spell that would remind of the journey to the West?
Perhaps some longer and picturesque stroll. xD
Really useful for scout hero. Seriously - "Journey to the West" references already has Cirdan in his skill.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 19. Jul 2015, 23:48
However Elrond isn't an exclusively hero-support. In fact, his old abilities make him a complete hybrid-hero (2 damage abilities, 1 hero-support-ability, 1 leadership and his refresh-spell (I don't know the english name, sorry), which supports heroes and troops (eventhough it benefits heroes much more)).
For now, I actually see Arwen as Imladris' hero-support, mainly because of her leadership, while Cirdan is Imladris' main-support for troops.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 20. Jul 2015, 00:01
I completely agree - second reason of this thread is also to deal with Elrond's role. xD
But I think that generally we can say that he is primarily hero support and secondarily unit support for faction (so mix of Arwen and Cirdan). Flood can be kind of support on the battlefield, because it isn't too strong and it has knockback effect (generally Elrond concept is support on the battlefield and not in the background). Only one problem which I can see is whirlwind because such kind of destructive spell is characteristic for mass slayers.
If whirlwind will be gone there will be only flood as a destructive ability - so it won't be crucial. Passive skill is not only support for units but it upgrades Elrond's armour as well.
So that restoration (or Vilya in our concept) and hero XP boost will be at least two skills for his hero support role, and rest of skills will be fragmented. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 20. Jul 2015, 00:35
just put a spell in the spellbook elrond s gift of foresight. and the effect should be revealing of the map there you go guys problem solved
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 20. Jul 2015, 02:45
You talk about water as the domain of Lorien. But consider who you are talking about, Cirdan is one of the Telri, he has a stronger connection to water than any of the elves in Middle Earth. To the point that Ulmo advises him as to massive changes that are coming, including the Ruin of Beriland.

Elrond's council is informed by his foresight. You cannot have one without the other. And it seems an absolute waste to dedicate two power slots to what are essentially the same. Merge them together and give him foresight in it's place.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 20. Jul 2015, 09:15
they should jusst make it a spell like saruman  seeing stone
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 21. Jul 2015, 07:05
But it is not a artifact like Saruman's Palantiar or Galadrial's mirror, it is a natural ability that is inherent to Elrond. Indeed it is more fitting that he have foresight than any other ability. This is like saying in a star wars game that the Emperor should not have force lightning, that it should instead be a faction power triggered from elsewhere.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 21. Jul 2015, 07:18
Cirdan is the most foresighted of all the Elves left in Middle-Earth, so I think it is more fitting that he has the power instead of Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jul 2015, 12:53
Cirdan is the most foresighted of all the Elves left in Middle-Earth, so I think it is more fitting that he has the power instead of Elrond.

True, he was the first one to recognise the true nature of the Wizards, just arrived in Middle Earth from beyond the Sea  :)
And the first one to understand the real value and status of Gandalf as the wisest and the destined-to-be chief of the Istari.
It is also stated and inferred, as I read somewhere, that the Palantír, the one kept by Círdan, is the only one capable of communicating with the Elves of Eressëa, who own as well a Palantír.

So, I think that this significant aspect of Imladris/Lindon/Grey Havens is already well implemented, and thus Elrond can focus mainly on his leader/commander/healer nature.

Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 21. Jul 2015, 13:24
agree
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 21. Jul 2015, 21:28
I think that we shouldn't speculate about foresight when we have clear statement from J.R.R. Tolkien:


So Cirdan should have the most powerful foresight ability. And that Gladys has better and clearer foresight ability than Elrond is quite obvious around all forums which I know - because she has her mirror, which supports her abilities, simply said.

And both implementations are (and will be) badass - Cirdan can reveal the whole map for some time and Gladys can reveal only parts of map, but permanently.
In both cases is the Team extremely lore accurate and personally I really like it. :) 

Yes Elrond has very powerful foresight ability, but definitely not as a Cirdan. And all heroes really can't have such ability - Celeborn deserves it too (and maybe Istari as well).

As I said - Gildor as a scout hero will have the same spell on level one like Gladys will have on level five (but in Gildor's case only for some time) and it fits for Imladris scout hero. Cirdan will be part of the faction as well.

So we should go away from foresight for Elrond because foresight is more or less support ability from the distance, but Elrond will be primarily Hero supporter and strong army leader on the battlefield.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jul 2015, 23:18

So we should go away from foresight for Elrond because foresight is more or less support ability from the distance, but Elrond will be primarily Hero supporter and strong army leader on the battlefield.


Yes, this is the crucial point  :)
Elrond's healing, magical and military abilities will be thus shown more appropriately and coherently, I think, without whirlwinds  :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 22. Jul 2015, 00:10
agree no whirlwinds for elrond  xD xD xD xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 22. Jul 2015, 18:20
But we also have clear statements from Tolkien about the depth of the foresight of Elrond. In the Fellowship of the ring, with respect to the depth of events, Gandalf describes the events to beyond even lord Elrond's ability to foresee. This indicates that it is powerful natural trait that is distinctive amongst even the wise. Considering Gandalf's tendency to respond to questions by talking about it being beyond the Wise in plural, it suggests then that by using Elrond as the limiting factor that his foresight is something significant even amongst the wise. If you need me to I can go through a copy of the Fellowship of the Ring to find you the exact quote, however, it is a limiting statement that relies on Elrond as an exemplar of the characteristic, which suggests that Elrond then is regarded among the wise as having a kinda special level of foresight. This is why it needs to be part of the character.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 22. Jul 2015, 21:54
Except Cìrdan is even MORE foresighted than Elrond so naturally the power belongs most appropriately with him rather than Elrond.   Also, it would be unwise and redundant to give the same power to both Elrond and Cìrdan
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jul 2015, 22:02
Except Cìrdan is even MORE foresighted than Elrond so naturally the power belongs most appropriately with him rather than Elrond.   Also, it would be unwise and redundant to give the same power to both Elrond and Cìrdan

Good point, I agree.
And Rivendell can also use the Palantír of Elostirion power of the Lindon watchtower, so it would be quite redundant giving the same ability to Elrond.

Elostirion is the tallest and westernmost tower of the Three White Towers  :)

 
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 22. Jul 2015, 22:08

When we are about that, people what are you think about this suggestion:
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31033.msg399396.html#msg399396  

Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jul 2015, 22:14
Good point, I agree.
And Rivendell can also use the Palantír of Elostirion power of the Lindon watchtower, so it would be quite redundant giving the same ability to Elrond.

Elostirion is the tallest and westernmost tower of the Three White Towers  :)

When we are about that, people what are you think about this suggestion:
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31033.msg399396.html#msg399396

Really great suggestion  :)
If you mention Valinor or Aman you always make me happy  :P

The Edain Team could also create an image of a bright Palantír surrounded with an intense radiant Light, since this Seeing Stone is the only one in Middle Earth that can communicate with the one of Eressëa.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 23. Jul 2015, 06:46
But we have it within the books themselves! I thought the Lord of the Rings should at least acknowledge the books with the same name? In those books it is said among the wise Elrond possesses a particularly special level of insight. But it seems that this forum is just a justification to remove parts of the character you find do not fit for gameplay reasons. If that is your belief make the argument. Otherwise stop trying to use the lore to tangle itself, it is ultimately inconclusive as the lore of the books also says that Cirdan has more or less given up on Middle Earth and simply waits at the havens for the Elves to depart.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 23. Jul 2015, 07:35
Tolkien EXPLICITLY said that Cìrdan is the most foresighted of all the elves in Middle Earth, even listing Galadriel and Elrond by name.  Edain draws upon lore from the entirety of Tolkien's legendarium, not just LOTR and the Hobbit.  Yes, most of us think, from a gameplay perspective, that Elronds role within the faction does not fit well with foresight, but that is half of the argument.  We are not tangling the lore, and an explicit statement is extremely conclusive. 

The lore supports The argument that Cìrdan should have foresight.  Foresight also suits Cìrdan's role within the faction from a gameplay perspective as well, though that argument has already been made and I won't repeat it here.

So please, don't be rude just because we disagree with you.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 23. Jul 2015, 10:03
Because this isn't part of this thread, this is last my comment about it.
Do you think we need new topic about this "palantir look" or not? Maybe to sum all ideas about it?  ;)  New topic under "Gondor suggestions"?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 23. Jul 2015, 11:06
But Tolkien's lore is a contradictory and evolving substance. For instance, there remains some debate as to whether Elrond was an Elf Lord, based on the fact that typically Tolkien does not directly refer to him as such. In the hobbit for instance he is called as fair in face as an Elf Lord, as wise as a wizard, and as resolute as a king of Dwarves. Likewise, when the council of Elrond discusses Elf-Lords it notes Glorfidel and excludes Elrond. There is a confusion in Tolkien's writings prior to 1948 as to whether Elrond of Rivendell and Elrond son of Earendil are one and the same. Likewise, there is a similar problem with respect to Glorfidel's return, whether he returned in the third age with the Istari, whether he came in the Second to aid in the resistance to Sauron or even whether he was a different elf entirely. The point that I am trying to make here, is that the legendarium is itself confused and contradictory, especially in the material published by Christopher Tolkien. If we are going to use the lore, it should surely stand that the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy must hold a higher weighting factor in a practical sense, to enable the management of these contradictory and confusing stories. I was not being rude as you say, merely exasperated, I would like a consistent point of argument, not this jumping around between gameplay and lore. I am an academic by profession, it is impossible to argue without agreeing a proper frame of reference, and we have lacked this almost the entire way through. So thus to reiterate. From the Lord of the Rings we have a direct statement inferring a special level of foresight. In the Hobbit we have a direct statement with respect to the validity of the advice of Elrond with respect to future action. These taken together infer a peculiar ability to divine what will occur. The movies themselves go much further as to visually represent Elrond as possessing full blown waking prophetic vision. These arguments taken together strongly suggest that the power of foresight is an ability or quality that is innate to the identity of the character. Now, gameplay-wise their is an argument that it is unnecessary as their are others means to access the ability. This is something that is an entirely different discussion. I would suggest removing one of those other sources in favour of giving it to a character who in the Hobbit preforms a role in which one of the primary purposes of his character is to provide a level of insight and guidance to future action.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jul 2015, 15:24

Really great suggestion  :)
If you mention Valinor or Aman you always make me happy  :P

The Edain Team could also create an image of a bright Palantír surrounded with an intense radiant Light, since this Seeing Stone is the only one in Middle Earth that can communicate with the one of Eressëa.
Because this isn't part of this thread, this is last my comment about it.
Do you think we need new topic about this "palantir look" or not? Maybe to sum all ideas about it?  ;)  New topic under "Gondor suggestions"?

Ok, I support this idea :)


Now, gameplay-wise their is an argument that it is unnecessary as their are others means to access the ability. This is something that is an entirely different discussion. I would suggest removing one of those other sources in favour of giving it to a character who in the Hobbit preforms a role in which one of the primary purposes of his character is to provide a level of insight and guidance to future action.

There would be so much to write about Tolkien and contradictions, obviously in a positive way; but this is not the right place.
Now we are focusing on Elrond as a character, but, most importantly, as a hero of the Edain Mod, and this aspect makes the gameplay issues fundamental as well.

It is well known that Elrond has the ability of Foresight, and it is totally acceptable.
But, since Rivendell will implement the aspect of Foresight already in three different manners (Círdan's Omniscience, Palantír of Elostirion in the Lindon watchtower and Gildor's Vision), and since the role of Elrond (Hero and Unit Supporter) as the leader of the faction is greater than the other heroes', I would say that it would be a bit unnecessary and redundant adding another foresight power to Elrond; even though we know for sure that he has that precise capability.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 23. Jul 2015, 18:12
Regarding the portrayal of Elrond in the Hobbit, I would say that the LotR and appendices hold more weight as far as the nature of Elrond than the Hobbit, as Tolkien wanted to re-write the Hobbit to mesh it better with LotR.

I'm curious, has anyone heard of the Tolkien professor?
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 23. Jul 2015, 22:09
Well,

because I want to have compromise suggestion as usual, so I added some about foresight for his pasive skill. :P


... but main thing for today:

I've finished some analysis concerning ability to ride a horse for heroes in correlation with cavalry units throughout all factions.
I think that after read it you will change point of view concerning Elrond and horse.

Firstly I've checked good factions:

Rohan is the best cavalry factions from the good factions and even in the whole game.
They have five different cavalry units and six "horse heroes" (all heroes except of Merry).

Imladris is the second best cavalry units in the game.
They have two cavalry units in the fortress but they have only two horse heroes (Arwen and Glorfindel).

Gondor is the third - yes, they have two cavalry units as well, but one of them is not from the beginning but you can find them on the outpost, so it is little bit disadvantage, but in Gondor case - we can find there four heroes who are able to ride a horse (Gandy, Aragorn, Imrahil and Faramir).

Dwarves and Lorien have the same position. One cavalry unit and one hero with some pet (Dain and Thranduil).

Evil factions:
The best cavalry factions for evil is definitely Mordor - four ringwraiths and Gothmog with Mouth of Sauron ... so overall six heroes, but find cavalry units as a permanent unit is quite problematic. Morgul riders are limited, five ringwraiths is different story so that only Haradrim riders we have to take into account.

As a second will be Misty Mountains - one cavalry unit but two heroes (Azog and Yazneg).

Isengard - one cavalry unit with Sharku.

And the same case is Angmar with one cavalry unit and we can't forget on Witch king.

I have to say that I didn't work with beast units as Wargs without riders, Mumakils, bears etc. and witch elite cavalry units as well. I don't know if they really work as a cavalry and mainly criterium for cavarly was that there has to be at least rider and that such cavalry must be permanent.

Conclusions:
Imladris is extremely undervalued - in comparison with Gondor there should be at least four heroes with ability ride a horse.
And overall only three elves in the whole game have such possibility.

So Elrond with horse really can solve this issue. xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 23. Jul 2015, 23:01
the heroes of imladris who are they elrond i know glofinder arwen cirdan and i dont remember the others
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 23. Jul 2015, 23:26
Gildor, Elladan & Elrohir, and Erestor.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jul 2015, 23:50

Exact and, as always, very detailed analysis, Tiberius  8-)
I'll try to 'expand' it a bit with another interesting fact  :)

In every faction, almost all the commanders (not necessarily ring heroes)/leaders have a mount: Aragorn, Théoden, Witch-king, Azog/Defiler, Thranduil, Dáin.
And they have a mount because it's another important trait of their MILITARY POWER and ABILITY.
Galadriel, Saruman and Sauron are the only leaders who don't need a mount, because they primarily and mainly use MAGIC.

Said that, and knowing that Elrond has far greater military skills than any other human commander or king, why shouldn't he have a mount?

#ahorseforElrond  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 24. Jul 2015, 00:22
Spending precious one slot for the horse is a bad idea. I speak but to remove the possibility of Aragorn ride. Horse - this is not a distinctive feature of these heroes.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 00:32
Gildor, Elladan & Elrohir, and Erestor.
and what about this guy ???(http://s11.postimg.org/o6t2tv8pv/erestor.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 24. Jul 2015, 03:03
Ohh well, he is Lindir, greatest ring heroe save Sauron himself!

Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 04:04
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jul 2015, 12:04
I would say that Lindir was a quite nice and enjoyable non canon addition from PJ, but, as for Alfrid and Hilda, he will probably have no space in the Edain Mod.
Even though it would be interesting if they used his face as the icon picture of other heroes of Imladris, Erestor for example  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 13:29
well i think Lindir is  an interesting character
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 24. Jul 2015, 16:45
In every faction, almost all the commanders (not necessarily ring heroes)/leaders have a mount: Aragorn, Théoden, Witch-king, Azog/Defiler, Thranduil, Dáin.
And they have a mount because it's another important trait of their MILITARY POWER and ABILITY.
Exactly. And all heroes from your list also can ride a horse in the movies.

Galadriel, Saruman and Sauron are the only leaders who don't need a mount, because they primarily and mainly use MAGIC.
Yes, we know that she was able to ride to and from Minas Tirith, but that's all, but mainly - she didn't ride a horse in the movies and for her concept/animation it doesn't fit. Saruman is great example, in addition - Isengard isn't cavalry faction and Necromancer/Sauron with a horse ...  xD ... there is Witch king ... and Khamul ... etc.
As you said - they are "magic leaders" and not military leaders.

Spending precious one slot for the horse is a bad idea. I speak but to remove the possibility of Aragorn ride. Horse - this is not a distinctive feature of these heroes.
Aragorn and Elrond are two of the most useful heroes in the game (Aragorn is currently the strongest hero killer and Elrond will be very strong hero/unit supporter on the battlefield.) Horse isn't only additional thing for characters, but also a way how to nerf them - Aragorn has many variations throughout his path and if you will check my proposal for Elrond closely, you will find that I want for him spell, which is available from the beginning and is still stronger - throughout leveling. So yes, one slot will have a horse, but theoretically he will get new four slots which are implemented to the one slot.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 24. Jul 2015, 17:02
I would say that Lindir was a quite nice and enjoyable non canon addition from PJ, but, as for Alfrid and Hilda, he will probably have no space in the Edain Mod.
Even though it would be interesting if they used his face as the icon picture of other heroes of Imladris, Erestor for example  :)

While we're at it, we need to change Gildor's palantir picture: he really looks like an idiot.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 24. Jul 2015, 17:38
While we're at it, we need to change Gildor's palantir picture: he really looks like an idiot.

Looks like an idiot? unless he has been greatly improved I'd say he IS an idiot haha
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jul 2015, 17:43
While we're at it, we need to change Gildor's palantir picture: he really looks like an idiot.

Looks like an idiot? unless he has been greatly improved I'd say he IS an idiot haha

Do not insult our allies, Haldir of Lórien, this is an order from your Lady  xD 8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 24. Jul 2015, 18:16
Do not insult our allies, Haldir of Lórien, this is an order from your Lady  xD 8-)

I do what I want, even Tolkien can't tell me what to do!
Gildor for most useless hero 2015! :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 24. Jul 2015, 20:43
i heard the name Gildor Inglorion i know he helped frodo and sam but i dont think he should be in the game
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 25. Jul 2015, 06:07

It is well known that Elrond has the ability of Foresight, and it is totally acceptable.
But, since Rivendell will implement the aspect of Foresight already in three different manners (Círdan's Omniscience, Palantír of Elostirion in the Lindon watchtower and Gildor's Vision), and since the role of Elrond (Hero and Unit Supporter) as the leader of the faction is greater than the other heroes', I would say that it would be a bit unnecessary and redundant adding another foresight power to Elrond; even though we know for sure that he has that precise capability.

See, this is what bothers me. The quality was a part of his nature, arguably a legacy from Melian, at least in respect to it's power. For it to be taken from the character when it is a consequence of him being a blending of the three kin of elves, and the three races of the edain and with his Maiar blood seems to me deficient in reasoning. Take the power from elsewhere would be my preference, and ditch the horse, or alternatively one of the experience giving powers. I am not contesting that Rivendell has an abundance of map revealing powers, I accept that, however, I do think that taking the power from Elrond is not a good thing. It would be like trying to say that Galadrial should not have foresight because the mirror of Galadrial, the primary mechanism for her divination is an artifact and could be better represented by a constructed building.

I also question as to whether Cirdan should be a hero at all to be honest. He does not take part in the war of the ring, and instead stands to hold the Havens to ensure that the elves who seek to leave Middle Earth do not lose that option.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jul 2015, 22:45

See, this is what bothers me. The quality was a part of his nature, arguably a legacy from Melian, at least in respect to it's power. For it to be taken from the character when it is a consequence of him being a blending of the three kin of elves, and the three races of the edain and with his Maiar blood seems to me deficient in reasoning. Take the power from elsewhere would be my preference, and ditch the horse, or alternatively one of the experience giving powers. I am not contesting that Rivendell has an abundance of map revealing powers, I accept that, however, I do think that taking the power from Elrond is not a good thing. It would be like trying to say that Galadrial should not have foresight because the mirror of Galadrial, the primary mechanism for her divination is an artifact and could be better represented by a constructed building.

I also question as to whether Cirdan should be a hero at all to be honest. He does not take part in the war of the ring, and instead stands to hold the Havens to ensure that the elves who seek to leave Middle Earth do not lose that option.

The lore is a fundamental part of the Edain Mod, but must be used carefully and in the right 'quantity', because we are talking about a game, in which every faction (being them Humans, Elves or Orcs) must have the same chances to compete with the others and win.

The example of Lothlórien that you mentioned is quite significant; Galadriel must have a foresight ability, because none apart from her has it, and in fact she will have the most powerful and useful foresight ability in the Edain Mod.
Rivendell, instead, has already three different and effective types of map revealing abilities; given this fact, and given also that Elrond is not a scout or an agile hero, I would say that it would be better conveying his abilities as Hero/Unit Supporter to types of powers more useful on the battlefield.

The presence of Círdan in the Edain Mod is unquestionable, because even Elrond and other LOTR or The Hobbit characters weren't directly involved in the War of the Ring, but they are crucial heroes for their own factions.
Círdan is also the former keeper of Narya (the actual keeper in the Edain Mod) and, together with Galadriel and Celeborn, is one of the oldest Elves still living in Middle Earth, since he was born in Beleriand during the Years of the Trees  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Eldalf am 25. Jul 2015, 23:56
I would rather see Rivendell lose all other sources of Foresight than see Elrond lose it, because it is my view such a crucial part of the Character.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: helloa2134 am 26. Jul 2015, 00:21
But Foresight fits more appropriately with Cirdan,  so it will stay with him.
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 26. Jul 2015, 00:35
but TiberiusOgden said elrond has some kind of foresight
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Jul 2015, 14:06
Well since Cirdan is stated by Tolkien himself to ahve may be the greatest foresight from all  it should stay with him!While the Hero XP Buff that was suggested will represent Elrond using his Foresight to aid his Allied Heroes for the upcoming struggles and thus increasing their XP!We just should think of his XP Buff as presentation of how he uses his Foresight!? :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jul 2015, 14:16
Well since Cirdan is stated by Tolkien himself to ahve may be the greatest foresight from all  it should stay with him!While the Hero XP Buff that was suggested will represent Elrond using his Foresight to aid his Allied Heroes for the upcoming struggles and thus increasing their XP!We just should think of his XP Buff as presentation of how he uses his Foresight!? :)

I completely agree, every aspect of Elrond would be wisely integrated.
And I'm glad that you're back, Dáin  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Jul 2015, 14:48
I think this is the best way to implemend his Foresight without Cirdan losing his own or have Heroes with same Powers! :)
I will always be here,just mroe quiet and so active my friend! :) And thank you! :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 27. Jul 2015, 19:22
According to my Modding - union progress, it seems that currently I am "Elronds Berater" (Elrond's adviser)  ... it quite fits. xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 27. Jul 2015, 19:30
According to my Modding - union progress, it seems that currently I am "Elronds Berater" (Elrond's adviser)  ... it quite fits. xD
My caongratulations mate! :) It really fits you! :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jul 2015, 20:43
According to my Modding - union progress, it seems that currently I am "Elronds Berater" (Elrond's adviser)  ... it quite fits. xD
My caongratulations mate! :) It really fits you! :)

It's true :)
And I am an Elven Pilgrim, a Pilgrim headed to Aman I hope  :)
Titel: Elven rings of power
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 2. Aug 2015, 20:03
I am just thinking openly ... about three elven rings, we have nice indications concerning Narya:
Zitat
It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, as well as (in common with the other Three Rings) hiding the wielder from remote observation (except by the wielder of the One) and giving resistance to the weariness of time:

"Take this ring, master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."
― Círdan the Shipwright

And concerning Nenya as well:
Zitat
Nenya's power was preservation, protection, and concealment from evil.
or
Zitat
The power of this Ring strengthened and beautified the realm of Lothlórien
etc.

We have already stated in this thread that we really like Edain implementation of that rings (Narya provides strong supports and Nenya provides massive protection).

But we have no information concerning Vilya and effect of that ring.
So we should build on this and general sentence?
Zitat
They were forged by Celebrimbor and his smiths with the desire of "understanding, making, and healing" and granted the power to preserve all things unstained.

I've already implemented Vilya as a ring of recovering/healing into my proposal, but maybe we should work with words "understanding" and "making" as well. What do you think? :)

Sources: Simarillion and Tolkien Gateway.net
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Aug 2015, 21:02
Logical analysis  :)

Vilya is the strongest of the Three, and it generally sums up all the shared elements and characteristics of these Rings of Power, completely untainted from the evil influence of Sauron; the common elements are, of course, their focus on healing and preserving in many different ways, that depend on whom wields them and how it does it  :)


Narya preserves the Hope and the Will of Freedom against any form of tyranny, Nenya the Joy, the Bliss and the Timeless Atmosphere of the place in which it is kept.
Vilya has a similar power to Nenya, resembling the Splendour of Eressëa or even Valinor itself, as if Rivendell were a 'mortal reflection' of the Undying Lands; and Vilya, most importantly, is kept by Elrond, who is arguably the best Healer of Middle Earth.
Elrond's powers are mainly focused on healing and recovering, and that's why I totally prefer and support a display of this kind of Vilya, rather than a problematic destructive power as it is the whirlwind; destructive potential that Elrond can already use via his Flood power, totally covered by the lore, by the way  :)

Also, I would add another significant passage about Nenya  ;)
These are the exact words of Galadriel to Frodo in FOTR (book).

Zitat
`I know what it was that you last saw,' she said; `for that is also in my mind. Do not be afraid! But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlórien maintained and defended against its Enemy. I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed! '

Zitat
`Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
`He suspects, but he does not know - not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'

The powers of Nenya involve kilometres of lands and hundreds of years, and the Ring of Adamant is clearly also the source of the military and magical Protection of the Golden Wood by the malicious influence of Sauron.
Galadriel admits it, the chants among the trees and the bows of the brave people of her realm are not enough to resist; the effects of Nenya are mainly physical, focused on the physical environment and realm of Lothlórien (greatest definition of Magic in Tolkien), as Galadriel's Magic modifies and manipulates the surrounding Weather, creating an unnatural Calmness in a dark and dangerous territory (Southern Mirkwood).

And we surely know that Galadriel likes creating Whirlwinds/Storms and magical Mists, while Elrond prefers the Water  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 2. Aug 2015, 21:13
Galadriel likes creating Whirlwinds/Storms and magical Mists, while Elrond prefers the Water
I always thought that they should change their rings.
Because in Tolkien world Elrond controls water (Bruinen) and Galadriel air (Mist/Whirlwind). But maybe due to balance ... xD each of them has the opposite effect, otherwise would be OP, because rings of elements would support their natural skills.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Darkslayer am 3. Aug 2015, 20:03
Galadriel likes creating Whirlwinds/Storms and magical Mists, while Elrond prefers the Water
I always thought that they should change their rings.
Because in Tolkien world Elrond controls water (Bruinen) and Galadriel air (Mist/Whirlwind). But maybe due to balance ... xD each of them has the opposite effect, otherwise would be OP, because rings of elements would support their natural skills.
And Cirdan seemed quiet to me, so he gets the Fire Ring Narya to help with leadership. Great theory, I like it! Although, it should be remembered that Vilya and Narya were both initially given to Gil-galad. Myabe he was shy and strong with water as well? :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 3. Aug 2015, 20:16
pout a spell the change of the rings to make them more powerfull   :P  xD :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 4. Aug 2015, 19:04
By the way - this thread is one of the longest threads around English forum. :o :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 4. Aug 2015, 19:14
thats nice
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Aug 2015, 20:39
By the way - this thread is one of the longest threads around English forum. :o :P

It seems that Elrond attracts a lot of interest around here  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 8. Aug 2015, 22:12
Maybe horse can be from the beginning (level one) and "water horses" at level seven, but logically more effective (causing more damage etc.) ...
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 8. Aug 2015, 22:42
I have vision of skill, that Elrond could have.
It could be called "Noldor wisdom" and, for some time, will shortened cooldown of all heroes/units abilities and spells.
What do you think?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Aug 2015, 22:56
I have vision of skill, that Elrond could have.
It could be called "Noldor wisdom" and, for some time, will shortened cooldown of all heroes/units abilities and spells.
What do you think?

I don't like this idea so much.
If you check the other posts, you will see how we came out with deciding not to give Elrond any other ability that involves his Foresight or Wisdom, also because he already is capable of giving heroes a bit of experience via his Wisdom  :)

Furthermore, I never regarded Elrond's Wisdom as a possible means to harm or telepathically blind the enemies.
It's Galadriel who is constantly under the telepathic 'assaults' of Sauron, and then blocks them and reveals his evil plans  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 8. Aug 2015, 23:03
Oh right then! It was just proposal. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 8. Aug 2015, 23:20
i think Tiberius said elrond has some kind of Foresight its like a passive it gives more exp because of his Foresight or something like that
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 13:49
i think Tiberius said elrond has some kind of Foresight its like a passive it gives more exp because of his Foresight or something like that

Elrond, according to this thread's proposal, will be able to give a small amount of experience to a single hero via his advices and Wisdom, and, with the passive bonus of his Noldorin Armour, fasten the gathering of experience of the surrounding units; his Foresight is not involved at all, at least for what concerns the gameplay (map-revealing abilities).
I think it is not necessary giving Elrond a further Foresight-related power, since this aspect is already well implemented in Rivendell (Gildor's Vision, Círdan's Omniscience and the Palantír of Elostirion)  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 9. Aug 2015, 15:17
i think Tiberius said elrond has some kind of Foresight its like a passive it gives more exp because of his Foresight or something like that

Elrond, according to this thread's proposal, will be able to give a small amount of experience to a single hero via his advices and Wisdom, and, with the passive bonus of his Noldorin Armour, fasten the gathering of experience of the surrounding units; his Foresight is not involved at all, at least for what concerns the gameplay (map-revealing abilities).
I think it is not necessary giving Elrond a further Foresight-related power, since this aspect is already well implemented in Rivendell (Gildor's Vision, Círdan's Omniscience and the Palantír of Elostirion)  :)
you agree with you mate but i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 9. Aug 2015, 15:39
i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight

I've implemented it to its armour. It doesn't matter, it's only reference.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 9. Aug 2015, 20:24
i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight

I've implemented it to its armour. It doesn't matter, it's only reference.

still he can see in the future its ok for me
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 20:28
i still remember Tiberius said something about his foresight

I've implemented it to its armour. It doesn't matter, it's only reference.

still he can see in the future its ok for me

I'm happy for you, but the still-remaining issue of map revealing powers/functions of Rivendell is still relevant and present  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 9. Aug 2015, 20:47
but the still-remaining issue of map revealing powers/functions of Rivendell is still relevant and present  :)
Yes,
Imladris will have the best scouting options through spells - There is Cirdan, Palantir and mainly scout hero from the beginning. And everyone can reveal the map.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2015, 21:52
but the still-remaining issue of map revealing powers/functions of Rivendell is still relevant and present  :)
Yes,
Imladris will have the best scouting options through spells - There is Cirdan, Palantir and mainly scout hero from the beginning. And everyone can reveal the map.

That's why one of the central pillars of this proposal is focusing on Elrond's abilities with horses and floods  :)
And, most importantly, giving Vilya a definitely more conceptual and lore accurate power  ;)

NENYA: Ultimate Protection (units/heroes + structures)  8-)
VILYA: Ultimate Healing (fully healing and restoring of yours and friendly units)  8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tienety am 25. Aug 2015, 10:08
i have small idea for Erond, maybe He can change his armors with stances system:

Aggreissve Stance: Elrond has robe. He gets +25% attack speed and -25% armor

Normal Stance: Elrond has light armor. No bonus or negative effects

Defensive stance: Elrond has heavy armor. He gets +25% armor and -25% attack speed.
He has a lot of different armors/robes in the movies. In addition, all three armor are already in the mod.

What do you think about this? 8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gimilzar am 25. Aug 2015, 12:54
A stance system for Elrond? Just like Thranduil's Weapon Stance?
And 3 different Armors on top of that? I dont think that will fit with Elrond. He might be a Warrior and a Loremaster of Imladris after all but seriously I dont think this would benefit him.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 25. Aug 2015, 14:35
awesome idea
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 15:20

Tienety, although I admit that I would really like to see unique and characteristic stances systems for every Leader/Ring Hero of each faction, I must say that I'm not really convinced by this proposal, as, I think, this type of armours should reasonably be available at higher levels than level 1; and Ealendril has already been clear about this matter, they currently have no interest in creating another armour for Elrond.

I thus think we should focus, for now, on the other interesting elements and ideas (despite Tiberius' love for Elrond's Golden Armour  :D) that we have come out with, like the Mount and a different display of Vilya, more in line with the Three Rings' nature and definitely more lore accurate  :)

A stance system for Elrond? Just like Thranduil's Weapon Stance?
And 3 different Armors on top of that? I dont think that will fit with Elrond. He might be a Warrior and a Loremaster of Imladris after all but seriously I dont think this would benefit him.

Having said these things, what do you think, instead, about a possible Mount for Elrond (in line with his role of a commander and leader) and, most importantly, about the different display of Vilya's powers?

Vilya would represent the Ultimate Healing (Elrond's and Rivendell's healing characteristics), as currently Nenya represents the Ultimate Protection.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 25. Aug 2015, 15:26
Not sure why Elrond would need a mount since Imladris already has two heroes who have one (Glorfindel and Arwen).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 15:37
Not sure why Elrond would need a mount since Imladris already has two heroes who have one (Glorfindel and Arwen).

Given that Imladris will have powerful and characteristic cavalry units, why shouldn't Elrond have a Mount?
He is the Leader of his faction, he has a higher 'role' and overall importance than Glorfindel and Arwen, and his role as an Unit Supporter Hero (commander/general) would make a Mount easily and rightly legitimate (as Théoden, Dáin,...).

Also, in AUJ, we saw him leading his knights in the patrol of Rivendell's borders.
I know that it's not a fundamental reason, but I have to say that I really liked to see Elrond still 'active' in the defence of his realm/shelter, despite what one could think after the fading of the Noldor's power in Middle Earth after the Second Age  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 15:41
Don't mind me wrong, but why should that be obstacle in this case? Rivendell is after Rohan second mightiest cavalry faction, that is enough reason for main hero to have mount ability. :)
Also it is little strange that Arwen mount is in general based on wrong interpretaion from Lotr movie. :)
 
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 25. Aug 2015, 16:02
i agree ARWEN she shouldn't be there riding a horse god damit i wanted to see GLORFINDEL GOD DAMIT!!!!
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 25. Aug 2015, 17:15
Yes, in my opinion Elrond should have a horse and Arwen shouldn't. He was ruler and main commander of Rivendell's troops, and he propably defended borders of his realm by his own (he let his sons to skating on thin ice and allows them to travelling around Middle-Earth, so he was most propably doing same thing and fight along with his mens with orcs/goblins/trolls etc if they get close to the borders or cross it.
And it's obvious that if you see intruder in your house, you want to get rid of him as soon as possible. So he wasn't do this on foot, but on horse. And AUJ showed it perfectly.

And about stances system for him - I'd like to see it too, but I'm afraid, it's too many work for ET, so if they won't include it, I'll live. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 17:40
Yes, in my opinion Elrond should have a horse and Arwen shouldn't.


I don't have any problem with Arwen having her own mount, since this is the LOTR trilogy's adaptation of Arwen, and the Edain Mod is rightly based on it.

I just think that it could be perfectly possible to give a horse even to Elrond, without utterly upsetting the general foundations of Rivendell as a faction.
As CragLord reminded, Rivendell will be the most powerful cavalry-focused faction after Rohan; I thus wouldn't find it so strange if it had three heroes with a mount (of which one is the Leader).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 17:54
Me either, just it is stupid reason as I said indirectly that Arwen have mount which is based on movie not on lore facts (ofc you know that Arwen used in that scene Glorfindel role), so because of that Erlond shouldn't have mount, no logic. :)
Elrond have advantage in integration of mount ability in comparation with Arwen. That is my point. :) 3 mount heroes isn't too much.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Linhir am 25. Aug 2015, 17:59
Well... i don't mind that Arwen can mount a horse too. After all, she has to get into Minas Tirith somehow, after the war. And I bet, she didn't done it on her own foot. :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 25. Aug 2015, 18:02
I like Elrond in his current implementation and would find it sad to see one of his great current abilites to be removed in order to free the slot for a boring mount toggle. Also, I disagree with Imladris being a cavalry focused faction - they have only two cavalry units (lancers and windriders), while gondor also has two and mordor even has three (haradrim, nazgul and the mûmakîl). Imladris is about elite units across the board and small numbers while having access to advanced technologies (they can upgrade armour, blades and arrows twice instead of once).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 18:09
I am sorry, but it would be nice if you can make list of current/old abilities of Elrond.
I haven't played 3.8.1, so I am not familiar with them. I only express my opinion about mount ability in general. Fine, it would be nice in term of proper discussion if you can make that list. :)
P.S. Also can't read whole topic again. :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 18:18
I like Elrond in his current implementation and would find it sad to see one of his great current abilites to be removed in order to free the slot for a boring mount toggle. Also, I disagree with Imladris being a cavalry focused faction - they have only two cavalry units (lancers and windriders), while gondor also has two and mordor even has three (haradrim, nazgul and the mûmakîl). Imladris is about elite units across the board and small numbers while having access to advanced technologies (they can upgrade armour, blades and arrows twice instead of once).

I in fact think that, given Rivendell's 'advanced technologies' and superior units-supporting elements (via spells or heroes' powers), its cavalry units are overall more effective.
But it's obviously just my opinion.

As I also think that the display of Vilya's powers as a whirlwind is not lore accurate (given the Three Rings' nature) and 'fair' towards Elrond's own magical abilities related mainly to healing.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 25. Aug 2015, 18:20
Zitat
Rivendell will be the most powerful cavalry-focused faction after Rohan
Well, then it seems that there is something wrong with Imladris. This faction should be definitly one of the best infantry based faction at all, but with very little focus on cavalry.
We dont have problems with some minor changes up to Elrond, but keep this fact in mind. I think we have to change something about the windriders, there wasnt any intention that Rivendell is considered as a cavalry faction.

Zitat
And AUJ showed it perfectly.
This is absolutely not an argument for me.  ;) Actually that is more a counter-argument for me. [ugly]

It would be nice, if you collect your ideas to form an overall concept for Elrond. It is a little bit tiring to read through 5 pages. Thx.  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 18:24

It would be nice, if you collect your ideas to form an overall concept for Elrond. It is a little bit tiring to read through 5 pages. Thx.  :)

If you check the first page, Tiberius has already done it  :)
There is everything: mount, Foresight and Vilya's display as Ultimate Healing and Restoration  ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 25. Aug 2015, 18:24
Ah, see. My bad.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fine am 25. Aug 2015, 18:26
Fine, it would be nice in term of proper discussion if you can make that list. :)

Sure thing.

Level 1: Fury of the Loudwater: An aera-of-effect spell, sort of similar to Gandalf's Wizard Blast but ground targeted instead of unit targeted (you select an area on the ground instead of selecting a target unit or hero). Has the water horses effect from the film.

Level 3: Elrond's Council: Target hero gains a big chunk of experience.

Level 5: Armaments of Days Past: Elrond gets his armour from the Last Alliance (which buffs him with +25% armour and gives him a leadership passive ability that grants +25% armour and +25% XP gain to nearby units)

Level 7: Restoration. The ultimate healing spell, unchanged from bfme2 I think, but also affects units. (Target units and heroes are fully healed and have their ability cooldowns reset)

Level 10: Vilya, the Ring of Air. The tornado (which I am OK with - it's the Ring of Air after all).


These are his abilities as if now if they have not been changed since I was last able to play as Imladris, and I think they are very well chosen.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 25. Aug 2015, 18:29
Zitat
Rivendell will be the most powerful cavalry-focused faction after Rohan
Just a small question... I can't remember that anyone of the team said that Imladris will have a focus on cavalry. Where exactly do you take this assumption from?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Aug 2015, 18:50
Sorry, I just followed main idea from this topic, and that was removing of Tornado.
Ofc that Tornado is better than mount, Tiberius and Walk expressed here idea about removing that abilty and they tried to explain whole idea in detail. I am just person who supports that idea. In main comment from Tiberius, all is described.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Aug 2015, 19:14
Just a small question... I can't remember that anyone of the team said that Imladris will have a focus on cavalry. Where exactly do you take this assumption from?


I'm sorry, I probably forgot to add, at the end of that sentence, that it was only a consideration of mine (and that I basically meant that Rivendell will have very powerful cavalry units), but I can assure that I have always done it concerning the other posts of this long (very long) but enjoying discussion (as I previously replied to Fine).
I believe, and always experienced, that, due to the Rivendell's qualities and characteristics (via its supporting spells, upgrades and heroes' powers), the cavalry units of this faction are, or, better, have a great chance to be really effective and useful, ending up being superior to what Mordor or Gondor could ever display with their own cavalry units.

Also, I always recognised the fact that, among the other factions of the game (but, in this case, especially among the Good Factions) Rohan is objectively the only really cavalry-related faction; so, it was thus a kind of subtle comparison between Rivendell and Gondor, concerning cavalry units.
A comparison in which I always found Rivendell the superior one, (according to my personal experience).

I'm surely aware that we could also say that this could mainly depend on one's own strategy and choices with a certain faction, but I always had this precise impression.
I also explained why, though, given that Rivendell won't certainly be superior to Rohan, concerning cavalry units, a mount for Elrond wouldn't utterly upset the fundamental and basic structure of his faction.

I reckon I may have used a word ('cavalry-related') not so properly, since I just wanted to mean 'very powerful concerning cavalry units'.
I maybe should have expressed myself better  :)

This is absolutely not an argument for me.  ;) Actually that is more a counter-argument for me. [ugly]


I don't know why, but I kind of imagined it  :)
But, as you may have noticed, I also tried to give a lore-atmosphere explanation  ;)

Level 10: Vilya, the Ring of Air. The tornado (which I am OK with - it's the Ring of Air after all).


I respect your opinions, but I totally don't like this display of Vilya  :)
There is no movie adaptation involved here.
I totally find it not lore accurate, not even closed to.

The titles of the Three Rings ('Ring of Air', 'Ring of Water' and 'Ring of Fire') mainly refer to the main Elements of Arda themselves, the Elements which it was created with (and they also indicate that the 'authority' of the Ring of Air is superior to the others', as Manwë, Lord of the Air, is superior in authority to the other Valar).
They have, though, almost no direct reference to the very powers of these very particular Rings (Galadriel in fact is clearly shown being herself more capable of manipulating meteorological phenomena as Storms than Elrond).
The Three Rings (especially Vilya and Nenya) have absolutely no destructive powers, as they 'only' focus on the Protection and conservation of the places in which they are kept, slowing the flow of Time, and resemble thus the Splendour of Eressëa or Valinor itself (always as a mortal reflection, of course).

I thus sincerely think that the powers of Vilya should be displayed as the actual Ultimate Restoration power of Elrond, to be definitely more in line with his Ring's nature and his own abilities' one as a sensational Healer.

Vilya would thus represent the most powerful form of Healing/Restoring ability in the game, as Nenya currently represents the most powerful form of Protection.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 3. Sep 2015, 22:05
would find it sad to see one of his great current abilites to be removed in order to free the slot for a boring mount toggle.
Just try to read the whole discussion, or at least the first page. ;)

they have only two cavalry units (lancers and windriders)
Only? xD

mordor even has three (haradrim, nazgul and the mûmakîl)
Haradrim riders, ringwraiths and ... mumakil? Mumakil is standard cavalry? :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 13:42
When Imladris is released, what will be Elrond's starting model?
Will it be possible for Elrond's starting model to be in one of his robes (for example, like this: http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac50/NarahElfaer/Elrond.jpg)?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Sep 2015, 14:31
When Imladris is released, what will be Elrond's starting model?
Will it be possible for Elrond's starting model to be in one of his robes (for example, like this: http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac50/NarahElfaer/Elrond.jpg)?


If nothing has been changed about this matter, Elrond will have his Elven robes of FOTR until level 4  :)


Then, he will achieve his Noldorin armour on level 5, along with his Leadership.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fredius am 7. Sep 2015, 15:00
In case you don't know, this is the armor he gets at level 5:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1#imagebox
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 15:02
That's great, thanks for the info DieWalküre :)
Also, I know about his armor from the Hobbit - I really like it. It looks a bit like his Dol Guldur armor, even if it's from AUJ  ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Sep 2015, 15:05
well i love his  golden armor botfa and i like to have a mount toggle for elrond
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 15:48
Well, I also really like Elrond's armor from Dol Guldur and would like to see it in Edain, but Elrond's current armor looks a bit like a brown version of his BOTFA armor, so I don't think the Team may want to make it  :(
Also, didn't he have a mount ability in 3.8.1?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Sep 2015, 16:27
well i love his  golden armor botfa and i like to have a mount toggle for elrond


I in fact referred to his 'current' concept; the proposal of this thread is another matter  :)

Well, I also really like Elrond's armor from Dol Guldur and would like to see it in Edain, but Elrond's current armor looks a bit like a brown version of his BOTFA armor, so I don't think the Team may want to make it  :(
Also, didn't he have a mount ability in 3.8.1?


The current armour of Elrond is fashioned on his armour of AUJ, which has a 'different' style, like the armour of Elrond's Knights (and soldiers) still of AUJ.


I really believe that, given that Elrond is the Leader and most important hero of Imladris, it would be very suitable and wise if he had an unique and characteristic concept (Elven robes + Basic Armour + Golden Armour)  :)
But, Ealendril has already stated that they don't have, for now, the motivation for creating a third design for Elrond.
So, we'll see...

No, Elrond didn't have a Mount in the Edain Mod 3.8.1, this is part of the general proposal of this thread.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 16:44
Yeah, I know how you feel, I also really wish to see Elrond's BOTFA armor in Edain; pity that it's not gonna be in Edain mod :(
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Sep 2015, 17:13
Yeah, I know how you feel, I also really wish to see Elrond's BOTFA armor in Edain; pity that it's not gonna be in Edain mod :(


In the description of Elrond's image, on ModDB, it is written that Elrond will keep his previous armour (the one of the Prologue of FOTR) via the Last Alliance spell.
But, I don't really know if it's a momentary or permanent effect.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/elrond1#imagebox

Elrond will thus have also his Golden Armour of the Last Alliance with this spell; but it's not the one of BOTFA.


It is still a heavy armour of the Noldor, after all.
This is what really matters  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 7. Sep 2015, 17:19
Well, I think that his armor from BOTFA is cooler than his Last Alliance armor  :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Sep 2015, 23:08
well i hope i can see all of his armors in the game i know its too much but still it can be like this in the spell of the last Alliance he should have his last alliance armor

later he should have at lvl 5 his black armor later somehow forge his golden armor something like an upgrade to his armor or something
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 27. Sep 2015, 04:39
I must say I like the concept developed by Tiberius and Tienety^^

However, I'd prefer Elrond to start with his UJ armor since level 1, and then gaining, on level 5, his DG one (or his Last Alliance armor, which looks similar to the DG one). Why?
Mainly because of the game setting. Since all the matches are set on battles, fights and war in general, I've always though stupid for Elrond (who is also one of the most powerful commanders in Middle-Earth) to go fighting with his robes. So, my opinion is he should already have his normal armor when he reaches the battlefield, and later on he should gain a more powerful one^^

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I think it's better he has on level 1 the mount, and on level 7 the flood
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Sep 2015, 08:36
you have a point mate
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 28. Sep 2015, 16:47
I actually like the idea of Elrond starting out with his robes, it makes for more diversity; and I like his Lotr robes  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 28. Sep 2015, 20:08
The collected ideas in the first post are very interesting. I agree with the changes of the level 10 ability, but i dont agree with this argument:
Zitat
Don't forget that Imladris will be the second "most cavalry faction" in the game and only two heroes there are able to ride a horse?
Imladris should be one of the worst cavalry factions in Edain, because it has definitly the best melee units in game. Personally i think that a horse doesnt fit for Elronds gameplay and role. He is a mass slayer with support abilities. Maybe you should discuse this once more.....if you want.^^
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Sep 2015, 20:25

So, Ea, do you agree with a positive display of Vilya's powers (also linked with the true Nature of the Three Rings) as an ultimate supportive spell?  :)
I always think about Elrond's current Restoring power, but enhanced and linked with Vilya.

Saluti.



DieWalküre
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 28. Sep 2015, 20:53
The collected ideas in the first post are very interesting. I agree with the changes of the level 10 ability
So you also agree that whirlwind is quite exaggerated and that vilya should better fit to the rest of elven rings. As we suggested - some ultimate heal fits perfectly and such heal is de facto currently implemented at level 8 in the game (I think). There can be only change for higher level and the picture of vilya will be the same as well.

Imladris should be one of the worst cavalry factions in Edain, because it has definitly the best melee units in game. Personally i think that a horse doesnt fit for Elronds gameplay and role.
Well, horse was only one of the ideas how to eliminate whirlwind. xD
Yes, for the game play perspective Imladris definitely has one of the best infantry, but my analysis is based on these arguments with numbers:


He is a mass slayer with support abilities.
Finally you've confirmed my worries that he is also mass slayer, cause he is really mix man ...  :P
In that case he should primarily be hero supporter and then mass slayer. For his mass slayer role there is suggestion concerning flood which is - again - based on lore. Flood is very iconic for them and I think that deserves definitely more attention than only some water splash at level one (and yes, than some whirlwind which will have Alatar and lightbringers, either way).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 28. Sep 2015, 20:56
Zitat
So you also agree that whirlwind is quite exaggerated and that vilya should better fit to the rest of elven rings. As we suggested - some ultimate heal fits perfectly and such heal is de facto currently implemented at level 8 in the game (I think). There can be only change for higher level and the picture of vilya will be the same as well.
Yes, thats what i meant.^^

I agree that elronds whirlwind doesnt longer fits for vilya. I will think about that.

Zitat
cause he is really mix man ...  :P
Got me.  :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Okt 2015, 19:41

The robes are still essential, I believe  :)
You have to consider the role of Elrond in the Third Age (especially the Late Third Age) and the nature of Imladris itself.

Elrond is indeed a great commander, with an unmatchable experience that goes back to the First Age, when he experienced the War of Wrath and the Splendour of the Host of Valinor.
But, we shouldn't forget that Elrond, in the Late Third Age, is a powerful Elven Lord, who lives in an enchanted Holy Sanctuary that he himself has established; his powers are thus definitely focused on healing and restoring, and preserving what is left of the Elves in the World, always trying to achieve the typical and utopian Elven Wish of protecting their creations from the Flow of Time and Decay, as it happens in Valinor.

That's why, even though it kind of is a lost cause, I always supported a concept that contains all these aspects (robes, normal armour and DG armour)  :)
And, this is also the reason, analysing the nature of Elrond, Imladris and the Three Rings, why I always rooted for the 'abolishment' of his Tornado, and a more conceptual and lore accurate display of Vilya.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 25. Jan 2016, 23:12
As a huge fan of Elrond, thought I would wade into the crazy waters of this thread! I recently made a general list of Imladris suggestions, and an Elrond Rework was part of it. DieWalküre directed me this way, so I thought I might as well share it.

Elrond Halfelven

Lvl 1 – Flood: Same as in 3.8, this unleashes a small 2 horse flood that deals medium damage to units and negligible damage to structures. With One Ring – Become Wrath of the Bruinen – Full scale flood

Lvl 3 – Elrond’s Wisdom: Same ability as in 3.8.1, grants XP to targeted hero. With One Ring – Makes target hero lvl 10

Lvl 5 – Lord of Rivendell (passive): Elrond dons his armor from BOTFA, gaining bonus armor, damage, and providing leadership to surrounding units. With One Ring – Becomes High King of the Noldor – Elrond takes up the crown of Gil-Galad and leads the Noldor to a new age in Middle Earth, further increasing all gains made from ‘Lord of Rivendell’

Lvl 8 – Vilya the Ring of Air (passive): The power of Vilya helps to slow the fading of the Eldar, and allows the preservation of Rivendell through the Third Age. Reduces damage taken by building in the elven base and slowly heals allied units within the base proper. With One Ring – Becomes Aman in Arda – The power of the One Ring allows Middle-Earth to be remade in the image of Valinor, as is the dream of the Noldor. All Elven structures take massively reduced damage and heal all elven units in their vicinity swiftly, but dunedain allied units take continuous damage – a reference to how men would wear thin if they lived in the land eternal.

Lvl 10 – Rejuvenation: Elrond is the greatest healer of the Eldar on middle earth. Same effect as in the base game, a heal and ability reset. However, to make it worthy of lvl 10, I believe that in difference to base heals, Rejuvenation would heal units FULLY. With One Ring – Becomes Vilya Unbound; AKA TORNADO TIME. Elrond, now as High King, uses the power of the one to free the 3 Elven Rings. He no longer has time to devote to healing, save in extreme circumstances, so he loses Rejuvenation and regains his iconic tornado, which seemed slightly out of place as a base ability.

So, from what I have seen, the main questions in this thread have had to do about the Whirlwind, mounting, and how best to implement Vilya.

While I'm not too attached to the Whirlwind and would be willing to let it go, I'm not quite sure what I would replace in its spot for the ring-hero Elrond. I know there's a thread for that too, but my proposal in my Imladris thread has both in one, so you'll just have to deal with it.

Generally though, if we wanted to get rid of the tornado in my proposal, we could just make an amped up version of restoration for Ring-Hero Elrond.

As my proposal says, I personally believe Vilya's power is a passive and pervasive one, strengthening the buildings and surroundings of Imladris, not an active power that directly interacts with the world. Elrond's innate healing talents are what would go into the iconic rejuvenation ability. The passive of Vilya would replace the Tornado, arguably trading an active power of Vilya for a passive one.

For mounting, while the image of a rider on a horse is one used to depict a strong military leader, Elrond in my opinion does not need one.

Imladris should be one of the worst cavalry factions in Edain, because it has definitly the best melee units in game. Personally i think that a horse doesnt fit for Elronds gameplay and role. He is a mass slayer with support abilities. Maybe you should discuse this once more.....if you want.^^

I personally agree with Ealendril on this one. Rivendell in my mind is an infantry-heavy faction, not calvary based. As such, it seems to me enough that Glorfindel and Arwen can mount, while Elrond leads the infantry.

And yes, I'm aware now that the team has no plans to make the BOTFA armor, but I didn't know when I made the proposal.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jan 2016, 00:22
Yes, this topic is quite wide and vast, like the wild yet free lands of Middle Earth  xD

As you can see, many suggestions have been made, and many answers have been given too.
Just, the only quite clear element I feel to point at is the very probable intention of the Edain Team of replacing Elrond's tornado with a more lore accurate and suitable representation of Vilya; and, I completely agree with you about the main characteristics that this new ability should have in order to display accurately the real nature of this Ring and the Three Rings in general, as we wrote and discussed about both in this section and in the lore one  :)

Slowing the flow of Time and decay of the World, recreating a mortal reflection of the Undying Lands.

This is the core of everything; something that could be greatly implemented in the gameplay, focusing on what makes also Rivendell specific and unique (preservation, healing, protection, sanctuary-like atmosphere,...).
So, as I have always indicated as well in my previous posts, this proposal has my total approval.

There is also a comment of Ealendril which seems to go in this same direction  :)

Zitat
So you also agree that whirlwind is quite exaggerated and that vilya should better fit to the rest of elven rings. As we suggested - some ultimate heal fits perfectly and such heal is de facto currently implemented at level 8 in the game (I think). There can be only change for higher level and the picture of vilya will be the same as well.

Yes, thats what i meant.^^


P.S. My previous considerations about this matter.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 26. Jan 2016, 05:26
This thread is almost bigger than the vast armies of Gorgoroth, so i'll add my two cents.
When it comes to the abilities I personally think that it is more fit for Elrond to gain improved abilities as he gains level, although maybe not that much. I think the abilities should have only 4 forms: standard, upgrades 1&2 and ring form.

For "Flood" I think that it should be something like Level 1: 1 horse, Level 4: 2 horses, Level 7: 4 horses and then the ring ability would be a full scale flood like in vanilla.

On Elrond's advice it's the other way around, I think we should have some upgrades as he gains levels to show his knowledge expanding as time goes. Therefore on the level it's unlocked it should grant quarter of a level of xp and level 10 it should grant a full level. This would make a real difference between his beginning self and his former self.

Armor of the High Elves
Nothing to say here, I like the concept presented by VectorMaximus

Vilya
Here I think the passive ability nailed it, I really don't see Elrond mounting a horse, he is barely seen like that and it doesn't fit him as a unit supporter to be able to charge head first into battle ahead of all the troops. I would probably change the effect of the though to less damage and small armor or damage buff and then once he ceases the ring make it that they heal.

Rejuvenation
I also really like that concept, as for the tornado I seem to remember a long time ago that somebody proposed the idea of putting them together. While it is not the most lore-accurate it could be that once Elrond gains the one ring he no longer wishes just to protect but to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor and therefore all of his abilities take a slight offense role giving us this:

Elrond's Advice
Can now be cast on enemy heroes, the heroes listen to the commanding voice of Elrond which leads them to their own doom. They can't gain experience and their abilities recharge slower for 1 minute.

Vylia
The might and will of Elrond to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor spreads through the foundations of the earth and hinders the enemy buildings. Settlements, and settlements only, now only produce half as much, or train units half as fast.

Finally rejuvenation becomes a passive heal which can transform into an active tornado once the player clicks on it , representing Elrond unstoppable will.

Obviously this will need tweaking since even from where I'm standing it seems a bit op but the key concept that I(m trying to show here is the corruption that the ring brings to the hero, amplifying their flaws by a hundredth and multiplying the extent of their deepest desires by a million.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: VectorMaximus am 26. Jan 2016, 14:16
I could see the flood getting upgraded as he levels up. However, I think the Elrond's Advice has to give more XP then what you are describing, or at least have a low cooldown, otherwise it doesn't seem like its worth much.

Me and DieWalküre discussed in my Imladris thread about the Tornado. Here's what we said.

Especially, in some of the last pages, I had pointed out the fact that I didn't and still don't like a tornado (therefore a destructive representation of Magic) to be related to the healing and preserving nature of Vilya, which, as you rightly wrote, was made to create a sort of mortal reflection of Valinor/Eldamar/Eressëa in Middle Earth, in a mournful and sad desire of recreating what the Eldar had lost after having chosen the Exile from Aman (very recurrent theme in their creations).

My response;

I do agree heavily that the Whirlwind is highly out of place and is not canonical at all - but it is such a iconic ability I felt somewhat guilty about removing it completely, so I believed that it was an appropriate ability for a ring-hero, showing the destructive capability of the One while removing his rejuvenation, showing that even though Elrond could wield the One and its might, it would come at a cost, in this case, his ability to heal.

So my personal opinion still aligns with my original proposal - Remove rejuvenation and give Elrond back his Whirlwind as Ring-Hero. This would show the rings corruptive and more destructive nature, as well as preserving one of his iconic abilities. However, as I've said before, I don't care an immense amount about the tornado. In my opinion its far more important to get Vilya implemented correctly (preferably as the passive I described). :)

Elrond's Advice
Can now be cast on enemy heroes, the heroes listen to the commanding voice of Elrond which leads them to their own doom. They can't gain experience and their abilities recharge slower for 1 minute.

Vylia
The might and will of Elrond to make all of Middle-Earth like Valinor spreads through the foundations of the earth and hinders the enemy buildings. Settlements, and settlements only, now only produce half as much, or train units half as fast.

Finally rejuvenation becomes a passive heal which can transform into an active tornado once the player clicks on it , representing Elrond unstoppable will.

I really like your idea for the One-Ring upgrade for Elrond's Advice. Would it still give XP to allied heroes its cast on? Also, I believe that the Witch-King(Angmar) as the ring-hero had the ability you're talking about, hindering production globally (though I'm not sure if it will be in 4.0).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Spacetyrant93 am 26. Jan 2016, 15:53
Huge thread is huge XD

As Elrond is among my favorite heroes, I'd like to put my two cents in. I agree with Tiberius's original idea (first post), as he loses pretty much nothing of what he was and gains new, iconic abilities.

I really liked his original flood and the fact that it gets stronger as he levels up, (ike he's getting the hang of it XD) plus it's a really lore based iconic abilit of his, so it should stay.

Zitat
On Elrond's advice it's the other way around, I think we should have some upgrades as he gains levels to show his knowledge expanding as time goes. Therefore on the level it's unlocked it should grant quarter of a level of xp and level 10 it should grant a full level. This would make a real difference between his beginning self and his former self.


This I approve, given that Rivendell's base is the studying and learning of ancient crafts and arts, it really fits here.

About the horse, I see no actual problem with him riding one, as one could think he patrols the borders of his land with his soldiers. Despite whatever role Imladrish might have among the other faction cavalry-wise, I believe Elrond would be fit to be able to ride, since he, just like Arwen, has been shown on horseback.
Also, one thing I always really liked about Elrond, was the fact that, unlike many other mounted Elves (except Thranduil) his steed is dark in color. Asfaloth (both Aren's and Glorfindel's XD) is a white stallion, and in AUJ too the guards rode steeds that were mostly white-gray, but Elrond's mount was dark brown, that perfectly fit his armor and hair color. Stupid point I know, but still, I really think it helps him stand out.

For the armor thing, I actually prefer the AUJ one, but since that's already implemented, that goes fine by me. The robe is fine, as it creates a theme with the other Elven Lords (Celeborn and Thranduil both start with robes, and later get Armor). As for the Dol Guldur armor, It would really fit his level 10, giving resistance to magic and a little stronger stats, just a little bit though. True, that would be yet another skin to work on and all that, but to be fair, Elrond has the most varied wardrobe we've seen among Elves (benefitting also for being among the most recurring characters right after Gandalf). Plus, once the player has Imladris's other troops all golden, he would seem...diminished with the brown armor. And it would be different from Thranduil, whose troops were colored in the bronze of sapling trees, but he himself wore a freaking silver piece (with Mithril elements it's speculated). So Elrond going from dark and silvery to golden would not really be out of place.
PS: I prefer Dol Guldur armor to Last Alliance, more elaborate and those freaking green pants! It's always a punch in the eye when I see them DX

I agree about the power of Vilya, as it fits perfectly. But I would add that the buildings in the base also get a passive repair that's a bit faster than the usual, which might be a bit much, but still, it's a level 10 ability we're talking about here. Lore accuracy has already be widely explained :)
Perhaps, though, this would downplay Narya...

But, I also go with The Necromancer0's Ring hero suggestion, especially the part where Vilya gets passive healing and goes Tornado! It fits with the One Ring part, and Ealendril  said he's a mass slayer, so a tornado helps that.


Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2016, 00:11
I would just like to add something else I really consider useful for the discussion, in my opinion.

As I have already wrote on VectorMaximus' Imladris thread, the One Ring mechanism of Imladris will probably be radically changed, along with the faction's Ring Hero, of course.
Something really innovative and definitely more accurate, as it has always been a bit problematic trying to imagine Elrond or another High Elf of his 'court' using such an evil tool, with also destructive powers at hand.

There is a specific topic regarding this interesting question: will Rivendell's mechanics concerning the One Ring change in the 4.0 version?
In that same topic, you will see that I and other people tried also to give solid lore facts and explanations to object many Elven characters that were brought into the debate as suitable candidates as possible new Ring Heroes.

So, if I can give an advice, I wouldn't focus, now, on Elrond and the One Ring, unless official news are revealed by the Edain Team (and I won't say anything too)  :)

Regardless of that, I agree with the points raised about Vilya and the healing/restoring conceptual nature of Elrond himself; also, if it depended on me, I would just totally replace the tornado (if it will be still available via different forms/powers) as an inappropriate ability for this particular hero, and find another one that could fit better (determined by the general boundaries we examined so far).

My statement about Elrond as a Ring Hero.

Zitat
If you scroll down a bit this section, you will find that they were made other proposals about Elrond and the One Ring, being his case maybe the most problematic one to be related to a totally evil artefact like the One Ring itself.
Specifically, in this thread you will see that the Edain Team will probably find another more innovative solution for Imladris, rather than the regular Ring Hero that tries to control the One Ring and to bend its powers with different results depending on the faction.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30970.msg392588.html#msg392588

I think that I know what we could possibly see, but I won't reveal anything, not even speculations, if it is not officially announced by the Edain Team itself  :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Jul 2016, 23:03
This very iconic and significant thread has been moved to the proper place it rightly belongs to, in hopes that it will still continue to be a gathering place for every suggestion regarding our beloved Lord of Imladris  :)

MOVED
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Amandil7 am 1. Aug 2016, 01:32
Judging from the beta videos, i think Elrond's level 10 ability should maybe last a bit longer and do slightly more damage.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 21. Jan 2019, 04:51
Don't tell me that we are not able to find lore-friendly effect for Vilya, which is problably the mightiest from all three elven rings ...
Zitat
forged by Celebrimbor and his smiths with the desire of "understanding, making, and healing" and granted the power to preserve all things unstained

To look at it more closely:

Narya, ring of fire -  power to inspire others to resist tyranny, as well as (in common with the other Three Rings) hiding the wielder from remote observation (except by the wielder of the One) and giving resistance to the weariness of time.

In game: Level 1: Narya's Inspiration -  Cirdan uses his Ring to kindle fiery courage in the heart of his allies. Units around Cirdan gain +25% armor. When the ability is activated the bonus will be increased to +50% armor and damage. However, once the duration of the ability expires the passive leadrship will be disabled until the ability is fully recharged.

Nenya, ring of water - power was preservation, protection, and probably concealment from evil.

In game: Rank 10: Nenya's Cleansing. All allied units and buildings on the map are continously healed for a long duration. Units in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts of Lorien additionally become fearless and can't be knocked to the ground. Buildings in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts are immune to fire.

Vilya, ring of air - the same like Nenya - preservation, protection ...

In game: Level 10: Vilya's Wrath - Elrond uses his Elven Ring of Air, Vilya, to summon a raging whirlwind around himself which will heavily damage surrounding enemy units, knocking them down and drawing them towards Elrond. Left click to activate.
Ok ...   xD ... We've made great progress since vanilla whirlwind ... but still ...  :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jan 2019, 19:41

Ok ...   xD ... We've made great progress since vanilla whirlwind ... but still ...  :P

Marvellous progress, I would say. A thread destined to serve as a prime example of how one actually carries on a very dense, intricate conversation. Secondarily, it proves to the whole modding universe that major concepts do help and contribute, even though they end up being partially accepted. A very long-term influence, spreading and propagating its radius down to the foundations of the forum 8-)

As for Elrond, do you have still some suggestions for Vilya?
Albeit not the most imaginative or creative rendition ever, I'm quite fine with the current solution. It's true that we had envisioned the Ring of Air being characterised by a strong healing connotation, as thus says the common lore. However, a global rejuvenating ability would clash with the new overhauled Nenya, which affects both units and structures. Another issue is represented by his restoration skill, which already provides us with that healing theme we're looking for.

Needless to say, the very role of our Half-Elven Lord is a bit problematical. I remember you naming him a true 'mix man'. He is, indeed. Very versatile and agile. Primarily, he occupies the position of a unit-supporter hero, due to his immense experience as commander since the First Age; that's exactly symbolised by his leadership, combined with the fact that he may even lead his knights to battle. Then, Rage of the Loudwater and Restoration endow him respectively with mass-slayer and hero-supporter aspects.

In light of such reasoning, the leader of Imladris just needs a very effective ability as his ultimate feature; one that is able to nullify enemy resistance and breach opposing armies. Otherwise, I guess it would be pretty underwhelming of him, in case he had a supportive power available at level 10. The Lady of Light is maybe the only one who's verily worthy of such a privilege, because of her unusual role and function in the game.

What do you think?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 21. Jan 2019, 21:06
Elrond as a faction leader definitely deserves more importance ...
we've made quite a progress. Of course.

I am glad that my idea for his first ability was implemented ... adding water horses during levelling is the most unique skill in the game for me.  xD

Armour bonus which adds also AoE attack - fine and fits.

Horse - we shouldn't forget that we wanted horse for Elrond not only because of horse, but also it was our argument for making rest of his skillset really strong and important.

And it didn't happen. Elrond is the greatest healer in Middle-earth (probably), but his level seven skill only recovers, not heals.

Vilya implementation is better than in the past, without doubt, but we can see that just doesn't correspond with other elven rings.

You're right. Nenya took preservation (healing) over the whole realm, Narya inspires people of Middle-earth in their fight against tyranny (provides armour and attack bonus), so for Vilya we have to find something different. And definitely Vilya is comparable to Nenya, it means level 10 ability. It corresponds with lore - Gandalf used Narya while he travelled, but Galadriel and Elrond used their rings for "static purpose" and that's why were stronger in terms of protection elven realms. Narya just was too "flexible" and din't have time to find place where should stay - exactly like her ringbearer.

But back to Vilya ... we should't be too focused on air element.

So preservation-healing and inspiration are occupied.
What is free is protection. But problem is that protective spell is already implemented in the Imladris spellbook and armour for buildings etc. is included through Cirdan's last ability.
And active protective abilities (like invulnerability) fit more to tanks or Dwarves in general.

But what also remains ... is ... resistance to time and decay ...  :)
I am thinking about how to implement it for the whole map, similarly like Nenya's effect ...  8-|
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jan 2019, 22:09
Slowing the inexorable passing of time, decay and wear? Interesting. This could be a very sound start to begin with.

It's true. Despite it being very impactful in combat, it nonetheless remains an offensive ability. That is, a conceptual violation of the canons, according to which the Three Rings were 'only' forged to mend the wounds of Arda, and not to toss units away with a whirlwind or obliterate foes. You're right, lore-wise. So, if we are really intent to craft another concept, we should definitely detach from air-themed powers, as you advised doing.

As narrate all tales of Middle-earth, Vilya ensured that Rivendell stayed preserved and shielded from corruption, maximising those which were the exact properties of Nenya, until the Valley became a mortal, worldly reflection of the Undying Lands (Eressëa).
Therefore, just as casual initial hints, I suppose this new ability should perform a global effect, or something involving the citadel for a long duration (the Ring's blessing on Imladris lasted for more than three millennia). In other words, some protective, long-term effects.

Only with an impressive, large-scale impact can we hope to replace the current state of things. The road seems hard and perilous, yet the topic is absolutely intriguing ;)

Once reached a proper compromise, I guess we ought to open a new Vilya-centred thread, provided that things are finalised for the good. It would be challenging to create a twin-topic for the mightiest of the Three.

I'll too try to think about possible options. Thank you for having revivified this huge mammoth-debate; seldom have wonderful outcomes not arisen from these glorious halls :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 22. Jan 2019, 12:31
While I do love the air themed abilities, I can see why they may be problematic in terms of lore. With the preservation involved with Vilya, maybe a potential idea could be it improving the armour/healing units in a large area, while also reducing production of nearby buildings. Therefore, it would preserve things as they are and not cause a massive change.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jan 2019, 16:20
That's for sure. If we are to craft a worthy ultimate ability, whose heart is our legendary Ring of Air, preservation and durable supportive effects will be our general compass.

There's more meat on the grill, though. What is going to make the difference we desperately need and crave with a passion, is the own relation with the Ancient West. Those faraway, undying domains that represent a very recurrent theme for anything Rivendell-related. Vilya rendered Imladris an immaculate sanctuary, unscathed by time and decadence. And this the Ring had been doing for several centuries, until the very valley became a paler reflection of Eressëa itself. Hence, here is another fundamental component of the concept: a paradise on earth.

(http://www.tednasmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/TN-Fair_Valley_of_Rivendell.jpg)



So, taking into account all those arguments of ours, I think I may have conceived what suits our needs. Putting every piece of the puzzle together, I present you an ultimate form of support:

Zitat
VILYA

Level 10 - Vilya: The Ring of Air shields your castle from evil and decay, mirroring for a while the beauty of the Undying Lands.
For a long duration, every building and unit inside the player's base is imbued with a powerful blessing. While the Ring's effect is active, structures gain +100% armour and are immune to fire, units get +50% defence and +30% speed, and the whole castle is invulnerable to enemy spells and hero abilities.
Right click on the icon and then right click on your citadel to activate.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/MdqBBdlqsBk-sqSpd40iUqna5eFWpr6LtCWZZM1eYDQxS5TT82eKqwuKye-h1_yatXNzyEcvsAfFSUAx5V8XWS08TDE8kSJi9j__ShLmTxvoi54SbL21RDFHiSGEeTjh1UtatviK=s0-d)



Graphical rendition: The very display of the ability will have to signal that your castle (Rivendell on smaller scale) has indeed been sanctified, alongside the visual similarity to the stainless harbour of the Lonely Island.
For all the duration, every building (walls included) and unit/hero will shine of a bright, heavenly light, while another radiant beam will be on the main citadel, as a miracle from heaven. Perhaps, we might even add some ethereal, fitting sounds in the background (smooth and mesmerising).

Your castle shall temporarily assume the appearance of a saint-city, as every shire lying on the deathless shore, across the western seas.

There is an old effect from Edain 3.8.1 that is absolutely worth recycling. It's not so different from Nenya's FX (the past Elbereth Gilthoniel), apart from the fact that will recreate a sort of perennial enchanted day upon your base, while the power is active.

(from 6:55)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsrbJHQkxa0



Some noteworthy considerations:

Zitat
  • The ability's selection icon (what indicates the area affected) will not be the usual light-blue star/indicator (like that of Wizard's Blast). Even though the only target allowed is the citadel, there will be a proper selection figure. The bluish star appears to be bugged, when involving buildings.
  • You might wonder: "Why on earth do units inside the base need a speed boost?" Well, the answer is that increased rapidity symbolises renewed vigour and restored forces. Plus, your army will be able to sally out of the fortress very quickly and make a sortie!
  • The concept I'm proposing goes in a totally different direction from the current tornado-armour. A U-turn. I'm conscious of that. Therefore, in order to make up for the loss of a mass-slaying power, I guess that Elrond's splash-type attack needs to deal even more damage (I'm talking about his area-of-effect attack, once he's clothed with his new armour).
  • Probably, this is the most preponderant aspect out of all the others. The difference between Vilya and Nenya will be twofold:
    1. Nenya heals continuously and its magic is diffused throughout every corner of the map. On the other hand, Vilya's blessing will be far more effective (it's the highest Ring in rank) and longer, albeit concentrated solely within the perimeter of your castle. A quite remarkable parallelism.
    2. Another visual parallelism, which is very dear to me, is that the Ring of Water's effects boast a nocturnal characterisation, as a starred, hallowed night. Conversely, the Ring of Air blesses your fortress with a lasting holy day, as the sun rises above and sacred beams hit the citadel, reminding the player of the lost eternal noon of Valinor. Day and night. Perfect differentiation!

I hope all of this will please you and spark interest. It's a quite bold change to advocate, I know, but it's the only means via which we can truly rectify what goes wrong with the mentioned Ring of Power. The Three Rings would then be highly specialised in support and preservation, whether it be slowing decay or relieving a certain Grey Wizard from fatigue and toil ;)
Make yourselves be heard! I'm looking forward to feedback and possible polishing of the concept.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 22. Jan 2019, 16:54
Level 10 - Vilya: The Ring of Air shields your castle from evil and decay, mirroring for a while the beauty of the Undying Lands.
For a long duration, every building and unit inside the player's base is imbued with a powerful blessing. While the Ring's effect is active, structures gain +100% armour and are immune to fire, units get +50% defence and +30% speed, and the whole castle is invulnerable to enemy spells and hero abilities.
Right click on the icon and then right click on your citadel to activate.

Quite OP ... especially for multiplayer matches ...  xD

Well ...

I would remove armor bonus for structures:
Zitat
-Lvl 10: Ulmo's Aid - With the help of Ulmo, Cirdan strengthens all allied ships, buildings and siege engines on the map granting them +50% armor for 30 seconds.

And fire resistance:
Zitat
Rank 10: Nenya's Cleansing. All allied units and buildings on the map are continously healed for a long duration. Units in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts of Lorien additionally become fearless and can't be knocked to the ground. Buildings in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts are immune to fire.

And also that you have to switch on by clicking on the citadel is quite redundant.

What about something more simple?

Level 10 - Vilya: The Ring of Air shields Imladris from evil and decay. All Rivendell units, heroes, and structures are immune to enemy spells, hero and unit abilities, for a long period time. Enemies near to Imladris structures are slowed down and lose -25% of speed.

So it means that Imladris can fall if enemy will use regular weapons and siege machines, but what slows decay is that all enemies spells and skills will be redundant.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jan 2019, 17:57
Yes, I might have exaggerated with bonuses. Then, let us forget about armour.

The point remains quite the same. It should explore the whole preservation theme and should even last very long, at the same time. In short: preservation and duration (Rivendell was kept safe for hundreds of years).

If the Ring influences units, heroes and buildings across the whole map, it would work quite similarly to Nenya (global range) and its effect could not last very long, due to balance. One of the revolutionary aspects of my concept is that the focus is only on one precise place, referencing the status of Imladris as a secluded, merry valley. Furthermore, any negative side-effect on enemy troops should also be avoided, because none of the Three is meant to harm or interfere (directly) with your opponent.

The idea of nullifying enemy spells and heroic abilities I consider the starting point. It is what we have connected to the act of preserving something. Such a smart implementation, I would say. Yet, I wonder if this suffices for an ultimate ability. Surely, the advantage of having a single target available (the citadel) allows for a definitely longer duration.
I would then rephrase it this way, as a sort of skeleton-concept. We can add other effects or raise values in a later moment :)

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration.

It means that destructive spells or weather-altering phenomena are going to be rendered useless, for a quite long time, if cast on your fortress. It signifies that, behind your walls, you won't incur grave danger.
I know that it may sound constraining, but global effects cannot last adequately and I'm even making an attempt to differentiate Vilya from Nenya. To distinguish them as it's due.

EDIT: Graphical renditions can stay the same. That is, the aforementioned 'saint-city'.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 22. Jan 2019, 19:05
Zitat
Vilya: Ring of air protects Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration.

Much better for now!  ;)

I'm even making an attempt to differentiate Vilya from Nenya. To distinguish them as it's due.

Me too. I forgot to mention that I'm also thinking about Rivendell exclusively.

I can imagine that Nenya affects the whole Woodland realm in Lothlorien faction, cause Lothlorien and Mirkwood elves live in the woods. The same cases are ents and beornings.

But in Imladris we have the whole Eriador, and effects of Vilya on Dunedains or Hobbits would be weird ... and Lindon kin is quite far from Rivendel on Middle-earth map  xD ... So yes - hidden sanctuary resistant to time and decay - solely Rivendell.

I think that Elrond could active Vilya normally from the distance (to avoid necessity to cast it on citadel and to be obliged to stay in one place - in the base - during the late game), cause Vilya after so many years in Rivendell is probably fixed on that place, like Nenya on Lothlorien. You know - hidden sanctuary is protected by powerful magic even when Lord of Imladris isn't present.

Don't forget that we have to rework Elrond's skillset little bit - if we're creating new ultimate ability.

So ...


Levels 1 - 5 are unchanged (I only deleted beginning of sentence of the first ability - "Elrond uses Vilya to raise").
He is supposed to be mass slayer, so I kept his current last ability and moved it on level 7.


Yes, Elrond is known healer, but technically he doesn't heal in game. It's because Imladris already has many healing options, and mainly Arwen is the ultimate healer who stole her father's traits from the lore.  :P
And Restoration now has Galadriel ...

Zitat
- Rank 5: Radiant Aid. Any hero with Gifts of Lorien on the map is immediately fully healed and all his abilities are ready to be used again.

... so for Elrond it isn't unique ability. And it quite fits for her - when we look at the movies, it was she who completely and immediately restored Frodo and Gandalf, not Elrond.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jan 2019, 22:48
I presume we are in for a great overhaul of his skill set. Wonderful development! This thread is a literal workshop of wonders ;)

But in Imladris we have the whole Eriador, and effects of Vilya on Dunedains or Hobbits would be weird ... and Lindon kin is quite far from Rivendel on Middle-earth map  xD ... So yes - hidden sanctuary resistant to time and decay - solely Rivendell.

Correct. It makes sense on a territorial basis. Lore-wise, it's even more accurate. Rivendell stands out from the crowd as a real exception. Our implementation respects this general motif.

Great intuition about the restoration ability! I had not thought about that. It's more than reasonable to keep such feature unique, in the fair hands of the Lady. Entrusting her with said power, while retaining Elrond's whirlwind, is definitely the best solution. We save both uniqueness and the needed mass-slayer feeling in the Elven Lord's power set. Very good.
As a lesser hint, I think that Wind Armour could work better as title; we already have 'Breeze of Manwë' as spell. This would avoid possible duplications. Just a minor suggestion from me.

I'm very glad that my skeleton-concept for the Ring of Air interests you. I feel we have addressed the right thematic field to elaborate on. In order to complete the whole portrait, I guess that adding the other bonuses on troops/heroes might do. It was the other side of my initial idea. As explained above, units will be reinvigorated and able to fend off approaching assaults, very quickly. Otherwise, it would not be enough for a level-10 ability, and your adversaries could simply remain outside and bombard your base with siege weapons.

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration. Units and heroes also get +50% armour and +30% speed.

You're right. It's far easier to activate the Ring's power instantly, without wasting time with a selection.



It's amazing to work on the Three Rings. Narya, Nenya, and now Vilya. In the wake of the forthcoming patch, we shall (hopefully) have new Three Rings, which finally relate to the pure lore. If all goes well, of course :)

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/27/26045/thumb_620x2000/98e9bc9b-70fa-4a4d-a1af-dde48481bb07.gif)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 22. Jan 2019, 23:51
I think that Wind Armour could work better as title; we already have 'Breeze of Manwë' as spell. This would avoid possible duplications. Just a minor suggestion from me.

I used it intentionally - to connect spellbook and faction hero.  :P ... But it can be Wind shield, wind armor, whatever.

Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration. Units and heroes also get +50% armour and +30% speed.

Problem is that Elrond already has armour bonus for units. And concerning speed - it should work contrary ... Vilya works against time and decay - Rivendell is like bubble where time doesn't matter ... I thank that is the most important Vilya's trait. But how to get into the game is quite challenge ...

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.

After all - resistance to fire and frost munitions, and to poison, quite fit, cause Misty Mountains and Angmar represent the greatest enemies for hidden sanctuary.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jan 2019, 16:34
Fine! Fair enough. We might thus be very close to the completion of these 'preparatory works' of ours, before submitting the concept in the professional, definitive manner that the case requires (it's a quite holistic overhaul, and it's going to affect his role, too). Moreover, I kind of sense how the success enjoyed by the Narya proposal and the recent (extraordinary) change regarding Nenya seem to bode well. I mean, quite a compelling argument for a fresh upgrade of the Three Rings ;)

I like the eventual fashion of all the effects. In fact, what is decay exactly? Mostly, I view it as the pitiless passing of time and the consequent deterioration brought about by bad weather and malevolent entities, be it fell ice, poison or other corroding adversities. A magical defence against the merciless action of these negative factors therefore strings the right chords. Marvellous solution.
I would just include magic in the list. Magic-type damage, if some enemy heroes are able to deal it via their basic attack.

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, ice, magic and poison, for a very long duration.

As said, the overall graphical display should stay the same as that suggested earlier.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 23. Jan 2019, 16:48
what is decay exactly? Mostly, I view it as the pitiless passing of time and the consequent deterioration brought about by bad weather and malevolent entities, be it fell ice, poison or other corroding adversities.

Exactly! Maybe we found out what Tolkien meant by "decay" ... cause when you have an army, you can quickly storm Rivendell and Ring doesn't help you ... but decay is slow process ... and Imladris clearly was immune against bad weather, even located so near to inhospitable mountains, where Goblins with poison blades and arrows dwell.

I would just include magic in the list. Magic-type damage, if some enemy heroes are able to deal it via their basic attack.

I didn't include magic because it was already implemented via hero and spell resistance, but we completely forgot Necromancer, who can deal magic damage, or some Angmar units! Yes, in this case magic immunity should be included as well.

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, ice, magic and poison, for a very long duration.

So we have it for now!  :)

As said, the overall graphical display should stay the same as that suggested earlier.

Of course! Another great recyclation!

We have typical Edain sickness - we're trying to find easiest solutions how to implement something or keep things from the past in the game, we're still reworking something rather than creating entirely new concepts, and we love movies and prefer movie designs, but still want to be loyal to books when something is wrong in the game and movies can't help us. We're "bounded by Edain" ...  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jan 2019, 17:14
I know, it's quite tricky. In this case, neither LOTR films nor the Hobbit trilogy delved deep in the lore of the Three Rings, if we count the Dol Guldur quest out (and, still, the way they handled those Rings in those scenes was pretty nebulous). So, our lovely books were there to avail our mission 8-)
I myself am reading the whole LOTR at the moment, for the first time ever in my life, and in English. Curious coincidence.

Besides, there is a very secondary matter to deal with: which kind of icon picture would you like him to have, as for Wind Armour (or Manwë's Gale)? An idea could be the classic BFME cartoonish tornado, but I might craft one from scratch. Elemental abilities often produce great icons (see the Twilight Queen).

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 23. Jan 2019, 17:44
which kind of icon picture would you like him to have, as for Wind Armour (or Manwë's Gale)? An idea could be the classic BFME cartoonish tornado, but I might craft one from scratch. Elemental abilities often produce great icons (see the Twilight Queen).


It's up to you. We can even recyclate some pictures which will be gone in the upcoming patch:

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 23. Jan 2019, 18:32
What you guys proposed is really good, as it depicts Elrond's magical nature and power. But, I think what could make Vilya even better would be if it had a use in the offensive part of the game as well. Almost all other faction leaders' ultimate ability is useful in every situation, be it when someone is defending their base or attacking the enemy's. Furthermore, by the time Elrond is recruited and reaches level 10, a player is most probably defending their outpost and not their castle. So what if this effect would be added in addition to what both of you proposed:

"Replaces one fallen unit of every horde on the battlefield."

This is a different form of healing in comparison to Nenya's, something that retains the uniqueness the Edain Team is trying to achieve in the 4.5 patch as well as making Vilya useful in the late game, when the player is attacking the enemy's base. Usually, one mere unit does not make the difference, but in Imladris' case, a faction with only 5 units per batallion, it seems kinda useful. What is your opinion on this?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 23. Jan 2019, 19:07
"Replaces one fallen unit of every horde on the battlefield."

It quite goes against our arguments how to use Vilya  xD ... But mainly such ability fits to Misty Mountains aggresive gameplay ... and as you can see their heroes already have similar abilities: https://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two (https://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jan 2019, 19:44
First and foremost, thanks for joining the debate, Fellowship :)

Well, I'm very glad to read about your thoughtfully pondered ideas; and I see your points very clearly. I fear such implementation would not suit the general premise of our proposal, though. I'll illustrate why ;)

One strong argument, pretty much the copy of one I've already gone through, is that whatever global effect would force the ability to last less and be reduced in general effectiveness. Second, an even stronger reason is that Imladris is presently well full of healing and replenishing tools, whether it be healing structures (or wall extensions), spells or Arwen's own distinctive role (her banner is formidable, under this perspective). I'm aware of the distinction between healing and replenishing, but the demarcation line seems often to be quite blurred, I tell you.

The concept itself suffers a bit from being exclusively bound to the base and extreme support. Nevertheless, we could argue that its inherent usefulness and strength lie exactly in its unprecedented scale of protection. Being the leader of the faction, I think an unusually defensive ability will suit the Lord of the Valley better, as Galadriel is by herself a unique heroine, too (while in her normal form). In this specific situation, I believe uniqueness and brilliant mechanics should prevail over sheer balance. That is, these two High Elves will not follow common gameplay guidelines. They're exceptional, simply said.

Additionally, don't forget that Rivendell would not fall short of devastating features anyway. Elrond will retain his whirlwind (we may suggest higher damage) and the Last Alliance spell offers you a wide of range of choices: you get to play with the Conqueror of Mordor and wield the Lance of the Firmament, which wreaks astonishing destruction (I tested it and I was positively shocked) 8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 23. Jan 2019, 20:55
Thank you both for your answers. :)

I see your points and of course I get why you do not opt for a global effect for Vilya in order to differentiate it from the recently presented astonishing effect of Nenya. If the Last Alliance spell is going to be this effective against enemy bases then, yes, we could use some magical defense through Elrond's Ring of Power.

As regards his whirlwind ability, I certainly agree with enhancing its damage.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jan 2019, 16:29
As regards his whirlwind ability, I certainly agree with enhancing its damage.

Sure. It could be either longer or deal more damage; or both ;)

Anyhow, Tiberius, I think it's time we formalised the concept in a new thread. This huge topic, the noblest and one of the oldest, has served us well to gather ideas and re-order scattered suggestions here and there. Then, as done likewise in regards to Narya, with great success, I would like to proceed with crystallising the concept in a definitive form, kind of. Afterwards, users will be able to express themselves in favour or against said proposal, and last-minute additions/details will be allowed nonetheless. If only, we shall have a very precise and complete source to refer to, and present to the community.

The sooner, the better, also. I've learnt that forwarding things too late can have unpleasant repercussions. We have ample evidence on MU.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 24. Jan 2019, 17:40
Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.
Technically not possible, sorry.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jan 2019, 17:48
Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.
Technically not possible, sorry.

This saddens me a lot, really :(

In this case, immunity from decay should be portrayed differently. I'm thinking about full invincibility for all structures and heroes/units inside the base, though the relative timer will necessarily have to go down.

EDIT: Thanks for the technical insight anyway :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 24. Jan 2019, 18:40
I think it's time we formalised the concept in a new thread.

I would stay here, after all we're only reworking one ability and second ability (whirlwind) we just moved below. And don't forget that we're in the longest English suggestion thread!  :P

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.
Technically not possible, sorry.

Thanks for the insight! Where is the problem? That it's resctricted solely for castle or that it's immune to spells and heroic abilities?

It would help us in which way to lead thread now.  :)

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jan 2019, 18:46
Fair enough. It means that I will nonetheless edit the very first page, provided that we manage to overcome the whole 'Vilya case' [ugly]

If we take that definition of decay for accurate, invincibility does not come across as a bad idea. Still, I'm waiting for further information on technical issues.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 24. Jan 2019, 19:29
Restricting an ability to a castle is entirely possible (see Angmar's ultimate spell ;)), but making your units/structures/allies/pet mûmak immune to all kinds of hostile abilities isn't.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 24. Jan 2019, 20:09
I forgot Stronghold of the Iron Crown spell, which is restricted to main base. Vilya effect only on base wouldn't be unique.

We can return to global effect, but global effect solely on Rivendell (main base, Imladris farms outside and all units/heroes). Not Hobbits, Lindon and Dunedains.

So here we go again ...  xD

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All Imladris buildings, units and heroes are immune to magic, fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jan 2019, 21:05
I was about to reiterate the option of temporary invincibility for everything lying within the perimeter of the base. That's the problem, though: the effect would be very temporary...

I agree on the global effect, then. Only, I think we should highlight the fact that its duration should be moderately long :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 24. Jan 2019, 22:41
I agree on the global effect, then. Only, I think we should highlight the fact that its duration should be moderately long :)

Do you know what would be unique and fit to Vilya's protective long term effect? To make it passive.

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to magic, fire, frost and poison. (Passive).

It would clearly distinguish Vilya from two other rings and restricted effect only to hidden sanctuary. Permanent effect would also be loyal to books.

There is one problem - Elrond already has one passive skill, second would be boring.

Edit: I got it. What about make it active/passive? ;)

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. Imladris buildings, units and heroes are immune to fire, frost and poison. While active, all faction forces and structures are resistant to magic for a long time.

Now it seems quite worthy of ultimate ability of faction hero. In terms of power it's comparable with Nenya, maybe it's even stronger, after all we're talking about the mightiest of the three, according to Tolkien.

So ... you have the green light! Rework first page, show the whole skillset, highlight reworked ultimate ability and our arguments behind it, add some pictures ... just typical walls of text, nothing more. :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jan 2019, 01:27
Marvellous ideas! This thread is a real forge of fantastic concepts ;)

Look, I'm literally torn inside between two major options. I haven't wrapped my head around a final solution yet. I hope we'll be able to call it a satisfying end, very soon. Before listing the two, I have taken the liberty to rule out the active/passive hypothesis, as it seems to me that it somehow halves the potential of the ability and separates aspects that should instead exist together (on equal terms).

1. Your previous idea is actually very revolutionary, and incredibly unique. A passive influence, therefore perpetual, would fit Vilya the best. Only, unfortunately, you've also identified the main implications which such rendition would cause:
- He would have two passive abilities in his skill set.
- The Ring of Air would inevitably end up being boring.
- There wouldn't be many grandiose graphical effects we could find (I infer that people would not like to have their own castle/camp permanently illuminated).
- All in all, it would not be appealing, to say the least.

2. The second option, mind, is probably the boldest one. Much bolder than inherently unique. Nonetheless, I'm sure it would fare overwhelmingly well; what players would fancy and appreciate a good deal. Hence, let us retrieve from the void a dismissed concept:

Zitat
Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All Elven buildings, heroes and units will be blessed with temporary invincibility.

As you may see, nothing so intricate or complex. Just the past prowess of Nenya, albeit applied globally.
- This concept respects the definition of decay we had discussed together, granting full protection from enemy spells, hero abilities, attacks (all natures) and whatsoever hostile act. Ergo: immunity.
- The Ring would in this way be enormously satisfying to use. A worthy, decent, magnificent level-10 ability.
- As you may have noticed, only Elves are affected. Rangers, Hobbits, Elendil, Isildur (and so forth) are thereby excluded.
- Duration is the weak point of the situation. It necessarily has to remain short, for the sake of balance. 20 seconds, I suppose.
- Regardless of time, here is another utmost argument: Vilya would finally be the ruling Ring among the Three. The mightiest of the Three Rings, gifted with the strongest supportive feature in the whole game 8-)

By consequence, in light of Vilya and Wind Armour, Elrond's price should be reasonably raised to 3000 resources, which is the maximum value for a hero. If we consider that he's one of the wisest, most experienced characters in the lore, that would make for a stunning improvement. A landmark overhaul, to be sure.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 25. Jan 2019, 09:47
Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All Elven buildings, heroes and units will be blessed with temporary invincibility.

Be wary, players would turn it to offensive-siege ability, although we want to make it clearly protective. That's why invulnerability effect was removed from Nenya:

Zitat
not march through any and all damage with an invincible army. If anything, that sounds more like a Dwarven thing!

So ... I've returned to main base idea (only hidden sanctuary as we wanted), but stressed long term effect aginst decay:

Zitat
Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within the main base will be blessed with invincibility for a long period. Does not affect the walls and their defensive options as well as a gate.

It would mean that walls and gate are normally vulnerable to siege machines, but when enemy breaks through ... they'll see that what is hidden behind the walls is protected from decay by powerful magic of the mightiest of the three.  :)

It would make spell balanced and yet interesting to use.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 25. Jan 2019, 14:22
I know, that's quite a tough aspect to work on. Given its global range, Nenya could too (theoretically) serve an offensive strategy, although healing does not equal to having an almighty army at your service and smashing through your enemy's defence. I just wanted to mirror the Ring of Water, while choosing more powerful effects. Anyway, the relative timer would be too short nonetheless.

Fine, let us go back to our two conceptual pillars: invincibility and duration :)

I agree with the sanctuary-like rendition. Only, I can't see the point of excluding walls and akin fortifications from the equation. I think it would spoil the concept a bit, and your opponent could not be able to vanquish your forces either way, as long as you stay in your base. If you reflect on it, walls equally play a crucial role in the defence of a settlement. It would be unwise of us, in case we did without them. Consider things conceptually: a supreme, benevolent, and extremely defence-focused Ring of Power that doesn't protect walls? I would personally leave it as it should be, without such constraints. I'll explain why it wouldn't break balance, in my opinion:
- As we concurred, Vilya will be strictly tied to your main base. In so doing, we have a kind of one-sided feature; a one-way ability. That is, you can't use it for offensive purposes or for besieging enemy castles/camps. No offence, apart from the perimeter of your base (which is self-defence, by the way).
- As long as you remain behind your ring of walls, you shall be safe and sound. Once left the base, the blessing will be gone.
- It follows that the player will have to judge carefully whether the comfort of Imladris is more advantageous than launching an assault. In case one opted for keeping units inside, the initiative would be on the other side of the pitch. Obviously, the ability cannot last forever, and it would already be immensely useful to know that your base will resist any kind of hostile manoeuvres (while being away and busy with attacking your enemy); this is the advantage of the feature, though.
- Put in these terms, Vilya would match its lore and own position in the Three Rings-related hierarchy.

Zitat
Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within your base are blessed with invincibility for a long duration.

I strongly believe this version fits the canons better.

Zitat
Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.

***

In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

NOTE: I still think he should be made a 3000-resource hero. That's reasonable, balance-wise.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 25. Jan 2019, 14:59
I still think he should be made a 3000-resource hero. That's reasonable, balance-wise.

All faction leaders (Gandalf, Saruman, Agmar's WK, Galadriel, and probably Smaug) cost 3 000. Elrond should definitely correspond with them.
Mighty Elf lord is even cheaper with current price 2 500 than Dain and Thorin who cost 2 600. 8-|

So one thing how to balance such powerful ability is to make him more expensive so we suggest +500 to total 3 000.
And second thing how to "weaken him" is already implemented - he has "horse skill", it means that he has only three active abilities and one passive.

Everybody knows that "horse for Elrond" campaign was my and Tienety's idea in the past ... and Elrond eventually truly got a horse. xD

But our arguments why we wanted him to mount horse were misunderstood. We said give him a horse in order to make rest of the abilities cool and strong. But it didn't happen - because heal was removed from his skillset and wind shield isn't wothy of ultimate ability of the faction hero.

Zitat
Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within your base are blessed with invincibility for a long duration.

So when we implement this, we'll also finish his rework which we started four years ago, but sadly stopped somewhere between level 7 and 10. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jan 2019, 16:52
So when we implement this, we'll also finish his rework which we started four years ago, but sadly stopped somewhere between level 7 and 10. :)

It was great to work on the Three Rings once again; very refreshing. Thanks for having revived the debate. I hope all shall go well.

I have updated the first post: https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31323.msg400237.html#msg400237



The complete concept

Fond greetings to all, dear attendees of this long, ancient and glorious thread. You may be wondering which purpose this venerable topic can still serve, and I shall answer it immediately: to complete the design of our beloved Lord of Imladris ;)

It has been a long and eventful journey. A wonderful experience for everyone involved in such lively debate. Our proposals have already produced meaningful changes, but the portrait is still half-complete. Therefore, Tiberius and I are very glad to present a final comprehensive proposal for Elrond's skill set!

Before I showcase the whole ensemble, let us go through the main arguments that have informed our little 'quest':


Zitat
ELROND

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/38/Elrond_loudwater_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113524) Level 1: Rage of the Loudwater - Elrond raises the waters of the Bruinen in defence of his people, summoning a powerful flood in the form of a mighty horse to crush enemies in the target area. At levels 3, 5, 7, and 10, an additional flood horse appears (maximum 5). Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/d/d4/Faramir_knight_ranger_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170311125827) Level 3: Mount - Elrond mounts or dismounts his horse.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/3e/Elrond_ancient_equipment_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171127131415) Level 5: Ancient Equipment - Elrond draws his old sword Hadhafang and puts on his battle armour. Elrond permanently gains +25% armour and inflicts area-of-effect damage. Units in his vicinity also gain +25% armour. (Passive ability)

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/c/c2/Galadriel_treacherous_as_seas_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170922122227) Level 7: Wuthering Gale - Elrond summons a raging whirlwind around himself which will heavily damage surrounding enemy units, knocking them down and drawing them towards Elrond. Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within your base are blessed with invincibility for a long duration.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7e/c1/27/7ec127cd2a537b51d59e2cd717d73640.jpg)


Vilya will be strictly tied to your main base. In so doing, we have a kind of one-sided feature; a one-way ability. That is, you can't use it for offensive purposes or for besieging enemy castles/camps. No offence, apart from the perimeter of your base (which is self-defence, by the way). As long as you remain behind your ring of walls, you shall be safe and sound. Once left the base, the blessing will be gone. It follows that the player will have to judge carefully whether the comfort of Imladris is more advantageous than launching an assault. In case one opted for keeping units inside, the initiative would be on the other side of the pitch.

The Ring of Air shall offer the ultimate defence against decay. In fact, what is decay exactly? Mostly, I view it as the pitiless passing of time and the consequent deterioration brought about by bad weather and malevolent entities, be it fell ice, poison or other corroding adversities, not to mention destruction and physical damages deriving from assaults and sieges.
A magical defence against the merciless action of these negative factors therefore strings the right chords. Marvellous solution. Invincibility nullifies the harm and sorrow come from every aforesaid implication.

We are of the definitive opinion that the aforementioned design not only does justice to a legendary, high-kindred leader of a faction, but it overall suits the canons very accurately. Vilya rendered Imladris an immaculate sanctuary, unscathed by time and decadence. And this the Ring had been doing for several centuries, until the very valley became a paler reflection of Eressëa itself. Hence, here is another fundamental component of the concept: a paradise on earth.

Zitat
Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.

***

In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

(http://www.tednasmith.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/TN-Fair_Valley_of_Rivendell.jpg)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 26. Jan 2019, 17:24
After Galadriel, you now really feel power of Elrond. We highlighted his relevance in the faction, which is something what completely lacks in the current version, and made from Elrond mighty warrior (mass slayer) and ultimate protector of his sanctuary (through Vilya).
Lore master who can summon natural elements (Water and Air) against enemies, while using pure elven magic from the ring to protect his kin. And still experienced fighter who leads elves into the battle. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 26. Jan 2019, 17:25
I do like this idea a lot. I guess if I had to say one thing I'm not sure about, it would be the removal of Elrond's classic Restoration, but I'm willing to look past that if there is a worthy replacement which this is. I assume the ability wouldn't affect Imladris outposts, but what about any other castles or camps that the player builds beyond their starting one?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 26. Jan 2019, 17:31
Agreed with Oak, I'm not too sure about Restoration going but it seems to have a nice replacement, this is a pretty good idea!
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 26. Jan 2019, 17:36
it would be the removal of Elrond's classic Restoration, but I'm willing to look past that if there is a worthy replacement which this is.

Agreed with Oak, I'm not too sure about Restoration going

I was also not sure about removing Restoration, but now that Elrond's ultimate spell is finalized, I believe that its replacement is even more satisfying and much more fun to use.

Firstly - Elrond currently doesn't have classic Restoration. Classic vanilla restoration means healing plus refreshing abilities of heroes. But Elrond doesn't heal, only refreshes.
Secondly - Classic restoration through the gifts in the upcoming version will have Galadriel. For Elrond it isn't longer unique.
Thirdly - Hero and unit healer role already has Arwen. She is pretty clear hero/unit supporter.
Fourthly - Elrond is mass slayer with unit support aspect. Current restoration makes from him also hero supporter, which is quite unfocused skillset.

I assume the ability wouldn't affect Imladris outposts, but what about any other castles or camps that the player builds beyond their starting one?

It would affect others as well (castles and camps) otherwise I can't imagine how it would work - you will lose starting base and continues fight with other castle/camp. Ability would be useless in that moment.
But either way there will be quite a long cooldown for such ability.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 26. Jan 2019, 17:42
You did a great job guys, as always. At the beginning, I was also not sure about removing Restoration, but now that Elrond's ultimate spell is finalized, I believe that its replacement is even more satisfying and much more fun to use. You have my full support on this proposal. I really hope we're gonna see these ideas implemented in the game eventually.

Suggestion about the ethereal sound you mentioned: How about the beautiful sound of the Tears of Nienna DieWalküre has uploaded on soundcloud? Do you think that it's proper for the Ring of Air?

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Jan 2019, 18:12
Thank you all for the very kind words! I'm glad that our proposal interests you so much ;)

Regarding the past restoration feature, I'll reply with two major points:

1. Arwen is appointed as the rightful hero-supporter of the faction. Not to mention that replenishment, conceptually, now belongs to the Lady. In fact, it was her who revitalised the reborn Gandalf and clothed him in white. Also, as a sorceress, her knowledge clearly surpasses that of Rivendell's lord (she herself is a hero-supporter, primarily).

2. Even though it sounds quite balance-breaking, I think that Elrond's price rise will compensate and balance his new design. Second, do you remember what I've written about the Last Alliance spell? Julio will confirm. The spell is now a sensational juggernaut of extraordinary heroes; in particular, the High King of the Noldor harnesses the fury of Aeglos, his dreadful lance. Well, add restoration to the equation and, currently, you may restore the three kings' abilities with a mere click :P

Suggestion about the ethereal sound you mentioned: How about the beautiful sound of the Tears of Nienna DieWalküre has uploaded on soundcloud? Do you think that it's proper for the Ring of Air?


Thanks for the precious support. It means a lot. Furthermore, there's someone who recalls my sound suggestions. I'm flattered ;)
That track will undoubtedly fit, I'm certain. However, there's a problem: it's already taken. The sound will be used for Nenya. After all, Galadriel remembers the Day before days in Valinórë; Elrond and Círdan don't, as they were born amidst the strife and toil of Middle-earth. Hearing the Bells of Valimar will reference that accordingly :)

If you don't have anything against it, I will start gathering 'for/against' comments.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 26. Jan 2019, 18:52
I prefered Elrond's advise ability in 3.8.1 but it changed as mount. I could not imagine him without restoration skill but the rework you have done to him is for some purpose. His aspect is changing, he has another view and characterization in the mod. When considering Arwen takes his role, this kind of work only deserves the support. Also if she won't be hero/unit support, what will be her role? Besides she has 'tolo dan nan galad' quote as the same effect for buying the spell.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 26. Jan 2019, 19:11
@Walküre About Restoration, I'm sure that you, as beta testers, know very well when something threatens the balance. I trust you for this change.

Sounds so otherworldly like this one are impossible to forget. ;)
I wasn't aware that this sound is going to be implemented through Nenya. It totally fits Galadriel much better, as she herself has learned a lot from the Valar while she lived in Valinor. It will be amazing to hear this beautiful melody in the game when using the Ring of Water.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 26. Jan 2019, 20:25
When considering Arwen takes his role, this kind of work only deserves the support. Also if she won't be hero/unit support, what will be her role?

She already has his role (and will have in the upcoming version). Look:

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 26. Jan 2019, 21:17
@Tiberius Ogden I know her skill and the spell, it is just grammer. As a result I am for it.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 26. Jan 2019, 21:32
@Tiberius Ogden I know her skill and the spell, it is just grammer. As a result I am for it.

Oh, it was rhetorical question. I see now.  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 27. Jan 2019, 08:23
Oh, it was rhetorical question. I see now.  xD

Exactly.  I should have mentioned.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 27. Jan 2019, 22:30
Hello, dear friends of old. I see you've been busy of late ^^

I truly agree with this new concept, but i find something that troubles me deeply:

Imladris is a truly late game faction, strong as anyone; for me is the only one that  can face a full upgraded isengard army and best it.

The question of giving the camp or fortress invincibility is really needed at late game?

Despite the previous ideas I dare to suggest to switch vilya to lvl 10 to lvl 1; why?

[...] Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time. [...]

So, by the very beginning of Elrond's summon, the effects of the mightiest of the three should be shown. But as rage of loud water spell it should be improved each lvl (3,5,7,10).

Rage of loud water to lvl 7 (already in full strenght)

&  Wuthering Gale  to lvl 10

I hope we can reach that legendary Elrond we all want!

Greetings ^^
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 27. Jan 2019, 23:39
Hola companero Mexicano!  xD

I truly agree with this new concept, but i find something that troubles me deeply:

Imladris is a truly late game faction, strong as anyone; for me is the only one that  can face a full upgraded isengard army and best it.

The question of giving the camp or fortress invincibility is really needed at late game?

That's the point. If you're winning you probably won't need that Elrond's ability, however, when things go wrong you can always return to recover to hidden sanctuary where Vilya protects you. It can work in different way - imagine that you lead the troops into enemy base but your opponent suddenly strikes from nowhere and gets into your base - at that moment you make Vilya active and enemy forces will have to wait until the effect is over, meantime you can return and drive them out of your base.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 28. Jan 2019, 16:19
I have to admit that his AmosVogel's point does make some sense. It could lead to snowballing issues where the losing player has an even harder chance of making a comeback.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jan 2019, 19:19
The next patch will make it more feasible to contrast snowballing and so plan a proper comeback, regardless of one's own heroic ability. Furthermore, in our precise context, I think we've envisioned everything fairly enough, preventing the effect from being that disproportionate. An incredibly useful instrument, certainly, though requiring some judgement and wisdom to be used. Once distant from the safe borders of your blessed base, Vilya's influence will not affect your units and heroes, thus allowing the enemy player to confront his opponent in the open field, with equal chances.

As noted in my aforementioned consideration, the actual state of things (as of now) is actually far grimmer for your adversary. Elrond can refresh all abilities of Last Alliance heroes, of whom Gil-galad causes utter devastation for both buildings and troops (and he may do that twice, thanks to his lieutenant's intervention). The Last Alliance spell itself is to serve a preponderant siege-based purpose.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 28. Jan 2019, 22:18
I like how you two manage to change Elrond. I admit I was not so much sure at the beginning. But I like the final concept, I can see now the whole deeper meaning of it. Elrond still has his wind armor and the rest of his mass slayer characterstic, but now it's Vilya that has a well deserved prominent role and shitable power. Still, I have A bit a doubt about simple and straight invincibility effect. It would be very simple to implement and very powerful at the same time and also an effect confined in your base. But that effect I better see on dwarves (as you wrote,my friend Walküre  some comment ago when you were still at the developing phase), and it wouldn't be so unique. What about act, not only in terms of lore theme, but as an actual implementation, on time? The magic of the Ring of Air works actually against time (the decay due to the passing of time). I've not a complete clear idea in mind, but for example:

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest?cb=20171124113525)Vilya's Blessing : the power of Vilya protects the people of Rivendell against decay and evil. As long as the effect endures, inside your base:
Buildings are repaired twice as fast, heroes skills get -30% cooldown time (maybe in this way we will still have a taste of the old restoration ability, which some member of the community are fond), units are recruited faster.

These are only three example. What I mean is that under the effect of Vilya time has less effect on Things. What do you think?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jan 2019, 22:40
I was waiting for your coming, kindly and honourable friend :)

First of all, thanks for the support. What I can assure you, and it's much apparent from the ensuing discussion, is that we strived and struggled a lot to come up with a worthy rendition. It's true that I was initially against invincibility, but that eventually became the most appealing option (due to technical limitations). Embalming your castle with invulnerability also towers over Nenya, in terms of hierarchy and sheer power. This we wanted to underline very much. It's nothing more than the lore of the Three. Vilya occupies the prime spot in the 'ranking' of the Ring of Powers, set aside the One Ring.

Your idea, as I got it, sort of implies that the ability should either be passive or be characterised by a long duration. Well, we have already ruled out passive features, though lore-accurate. If, instead, you're thinking about a long duration, it's the very display of your proposal that I don't regard as proper:
Healing or repairing must necessarily be jettisoned away. Not only would such powers mirror the own magic of the Ring of Water, but both themes are already present in the faction, in the most pervasive way possible (spells, wall extensions and Arwen). Círdan comes in handy when mending structure damages or raising the armour of all buildings. Lastly, Galadriel will have a new ability, Radiant Aid, which is going to restore (fully restore) the target hero; we wish to keep this magnificent aspect of hers unique, as it relates to her heavenly apparition in ROTK and to her sheltering the reborn Gandalf.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 29. Jan 2019, 00:59
We're still in the circles.  xD
It's quite simple.
Elrond has four abilities (if we don't consider a horse as an ability).
Three abilities represent mass slayer role, because he is mass slayer in Imladris faction (restoration is gone because it represented hero support role which has Arwen).
Fourth and ultimate ability (Vilya) represents his faction role - protector of the last homely house and bearer of the mightiest elven ring where we clearly wanted beat Nenya - if Nenya is ultimate healer in Lothlorien, then Vilya must be ultimate protector in Imladris. There is nothing stronger than invincibility (in this case used solely for defense not like Dwarves for ofensive purposes) but we tried to balance it as much as possible. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 29. Jan 2019, 15:51
Greetings to all the fans Edain mod. Let me make my suggestion regarding Lord Imladris. Immediately apologize for my English.
I agree that Elrond should be more powerful and cost 3000
But I do not agree with your proposal, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. First, you say that skills must be unique, but you want to remove the “Restoration” - Elrond’s most iconic skill.
Secondly, you want to add more mass slayer skills. My opinion, it is the obsession with the role of the character that makes the game boring. There is nothing worse than a hero who has 5 one-sided skills.
At the same time, I omit the argument that Elrond during the "War for the Ring" is not suitable for the role of a mass slayer.
Thirdly, the desire to make a modification as much as possible corresponding to knowledge, very complicates the game. Do not forget that this is, first of all, a computer game.
I want my opinion to look like constructive criticism, I do not want to offend you, Walküre and Tiberius Ogden. You are the leaders of this community and have done a lot for him.

Now back to Lord Imladris himself
I also want Elrond to be stronger and more interesting. In addition, I think he is not very useful up to level 5 - water horses do little damage, and the ability to mount a horse gives almost nothing.
I have two suggestions for changing Elrond. Both are built around three ideas. First: Elrond is the best healer of Middle-earth, he must have one skill with healing. Secondly, his ability to mount a horse is boring and takes one slot, I suggest (this idea was expressed earlier) to combine the ability to mount a horse and the ability of “Ancient Equipment”. By the way, it will be unique, not a single hero has a leadership and a horse in one slot. And finally, the ability of "Rage of the Loudwater " looks like a mockery of the power of the lord Imladris. I propose to carry it to later levels and make it more powerful.
So, option 1:
Option 2: I have an idea to make the skill Vilya passive.  I saw that there was already someone offering, but I came up with it myself, honestly  :)
In the end, it turns out that Vilya gives two abilities - it is unique and emphasizes that it is the main elven ring.
P.s. It would be cool if Elrond gets his gold armor at level 10.  :P
This option makes Elrond very strong, but this is exactly what I want. I used to offer to make the faction leaders more powerful ( https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35480.0.html ). New skills Galadriel make her just that.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 29. Jan 2019, 16:00
You've basically created Elrond from 3.8.1. and threw brick not only into our proposal, but into Edain mod concepts and roles as well. :P
I agree with you that roles can be complicated (for instance in Lorien or Rohan are heroes with "forced roles" for me), but Imladris concerning roles is fine and everything fits quite well.


By the way these points we've already answered either here or on Moddb many times and we're stick to our arguments, which are pretty solid.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 29. Jan 2019, 23:42
I know I said earlier that I support this idea, but the more time that passes, the more I’m starting to change my mind.

Firstly, I’m not entirely sure about the effect of full invincibility over all your castles/camps. I guess this would also apply to the tier 4 power for Angmar as well. While the Angmar power is slightly more reasonable since it would only affect the base that has the Stronghold of the Iron Crown, the balance doesn’t really make as much sense since the Angmar power is harder to access but has a lesser effect (just considering the invincibility not the other effects). The main issue I have with Elrond’s power is that it massively reduces comeback potential for the player that isn’t Imladris especially if they aren’t doing as well as the Imladris player which is likely as you’d only really have access to the power if you are in the late game. In general, it would massively increase snowballing (speaking as someone who isn’t a beta tester and so doesn’t know what the Team are doing to work on that issue for 4.5). I also just think that it isn’t really that interesting of a power and can limit the gameplay. There’s no need for having to outsmart or outplay your opponent if you can power straight through any attempts that they might have with invincibility. There are some more interesting ideas that could be done with the concept of a timeless sanctuary (some of which have been suggested by Aule in this thread).

I also have issues with the fact that Elrond’s role as a healer through Restoration has been removed. I know the points that Tiberius has made about Elrond’s current Restoration not having a heal and Walkure’s points about Galadriel being the new big hero supporter. However, let us not forget that Elrond was the greatest healer present in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He personally healed Frodo from the Morgul blade, something which I feel is much more important for the whole story and more iconic than Galadriel letting Gandalf recover in Lorien or appearing to Frodo in a vision in the film. In addition to that, he healed his wife Celebrian and it can be assumed that he taught Aragorn, Elladan and Elrohir the elven healing methods (after the Battle of Pelennor Fields, Aragorn calls for the Twins to help him heal the wounded). Elrond was a healer first, warrior second, and it seems a shame to have most of his abilities focus on the later.

With the argument that Arwen is the hero supporter for Imladris…well she isn’t really. She has a heal and the hero buffs via the spellbook but that’s it. She then has a fear ability, a speed increase and unit support ability. She’s about as much of a hero supporter as Aragorn is. Arwen will also become less effective as a hero supporter in 4.5, with her spellbook buff going from increased healing and power restoration to just better healing. If you are worried about the faction having too much healing, then there are other ways of representing Elrond’s influence (for example the restoration of powers). If you’re then worried about not having enough spaces in Elrond’s ability slots, then his mount could be included in Ancient Equipment. With the balance issue involved with the Last Alliance, any ability restoration powers could be modified so that they only affect permanent heroes, therefore avoiding the issue of having Gil-Galad devastate enemies twice in a short space of time. Then there’s the issue of Galadriel having similar abilities and it not being “unique” enough. Well I’ve already argued for how Elrond is more deserving of the healing and restoring role than Galadriel. Plus, if you’re only going to allow abilities for how unique they are, then it would just get increasingly more difficult to make good concepts for the mod. Saying that Elrond shouldn’t have the Restoration because Galadriel has it already would mean that you’d then have to rework Aranarth who can also restore abilities. The idea of making a base invulnerable isn’t “unique” as Angmar has a very similar ability as I have mentioned previously.

I realise that any changes at this stage would probably be a lot of work (changing Elrond’s plans or going over established heroes like Arwen or Galadriel). However, I feel like this would still be worth it and I hope that you will consider it in your plans.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 30. Jan 2019, 00:13
Agreed fully with Oak's reasoning, we've discussed this and I have to agree that I'm not so sure about the invulnerability anymore, or Restoration going.

I don't have much to add, Oak explained it all pretty well, so looking forward to hear thoughts on this.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 00:31
Zitat
Firstly, I’m not entirely sure about the effect of full invincibility over all your castles/camps.
As you said - we can say the same about Stronghold of The Iron Crown which at least for me sounds more OP because it is permanent. Vilya is purely temporar.

Zitat
There are some more interesting ideas that could be done with the concept of a timeless sanctuary (some of which have been suggested by Aule in this thread).

No, there aren't.  ;)
I've suggested the same proposal as Aule - but we ruled it out with Walkure because speed recruitment for instance goes against logic of timeless. Vilya shouldn't accelarate speed, but completely contrary - slower it. It would mean that your oponent should be faster - ingame speaking - and not you. We think that  time aspect just isn't transferable into the game. Also support for structures has Cirdan.

Zitat
I also have issues with the fact that Elrond’s role as a healer through Restoration has been removed. I know the points that Tiberius has made about Elrond’s current Restoration not having a heal and Walkure’s points about Galadriel being the new big hero supporter.
However, let us not forget that Elrond was the greatest healer present in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He personally healed Frodo from the Morgul blade, something which I feel is much more important for the whole story and more iconic than Galadriel letting Gandalf recover in Lorien or appearing to Frodo in a vision in the film.

Yes and no. He was great healer, but personally I see it in different way - Imladris was well known healing sanctuary not only because of Elrond healing skills, but also because of that place ... you could stay there as long as you wanted to regain your strength ... spa of Middle-earth. And this overall aspect is represented through the fountains and spellbook.
And concerning Galadriel - it was she who completely restored and healed Gandalf while Elrond was fighting with many Ringwraiths - even movie makers thought that Galadriel is hero supporter while Elrond like Saruman are mass slayers. :o
Not to mention her radiant aid across Middle-earth to Frodo. It clearly exceeded Elrond's healing skills.

Zitat
Elrond was a healer first, warrior second, and it seems a shame to have most of his abilities focus on the later.

He was also the wisest elf in Middle-earth (of course there were Cirdan, Celeborn or Galadriel too, but none of them was so open and well known like Elrond). Gift of Foresight was also his dominant trait. Ok lets throw Edain roles under the train and include everything what we know or like concerning our heroes. :P

Zitat
With the argument that Arwen is the hero supporter for Imladris…well she isn’t really. She has a heal and the hero buffs via the spellbook but that’s it. She then has a fear ability, a speed increase and unit support ability.

Well ... she is. xD ... Hero/unit supporter. But mainly ultimate healer of heroes. There isn't better hero healer than she.

Zitat
If you are worried about the faction having too much healing, then there are other ways of representing Elrond’s influence (for example the restoration of powers).

Yeah, such half vanillla ability currently has and it's not fitting nor anything extra.

Zitat
If you’re then worried about not having enough spaces in Elrond’s ability slots, then his mount could be included in Ancient Equipment.

Well, it's not typical. Mount is just a mount and armor usually comes with some buff for units/heroes.

Zitat
Saying that Elrond shouldn’t have the Restoration because Galadriel has it already would mean that you’d then have to rework Aranarth who can also restore abilities.

Thanks for another reason to remove his restoration - it already isn't unique for Elrond because of Aranarth.
But funny thing is that Galadriel and Arannarth are hero supporters. But why mass slayer Elrond should have the skill which clearly fits only to hero supporter?

Zitat
The idea of making a base invulnerable isn’t “unique” as Angmar has a very similar ability as I have mentioned previously.

It's pretty unique. Angmar ultimate spell is activated through spellbook and means permanent upgrade of your fortress. Vilya's protection is ultimate ability of the faction hero and is only temporar and doesn't add anything.

Zitat
I realise that any changes at this stage would probably be a lot of work (changing Elrond’s plans or going over established heroes like Arwen or Galadriel)

Exactly. I can't imagine better mass slayer in Imladris, especially after Dol Guldur skirmish, than Elrond.
By the way, we think that Galadriel and Arwen are fine and have solid roles. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Only True Witchking am 30. Jan 2019, 01:07
I too have to say that I'm not a big fan of the current proposal. The general idea for Vilya is great, and I would have supported the concept of a long-lasting resistance to different damage types (which sadly is impossible, as Elendil said), but invulnerability for the whole base + all units within seems quite OP.
It's a 10-point spell for Angmar, after all, and that should always be more powerful than a heros lvl 10 ability.

Also, as OakenShield224 already said, the overall concept of Elrond as a Mass-slayer is not very fitting; and to be honest, I am heavily against it.
In my opinion he should be the ultimate supporter, since that is all he does in Hobbit and LOTR - excluding that non-canonical piece from the first Hobbit-movie. So I would suggest to completely rework him.


That would definitely not interfere with Galadriel, especially not if implemented in a clever way, since Galadriel seems more a jack-of-all trades at the moment, with one
ability that causes fear, two hero-support-abilities, one mass-destroying ability and one unit-/building-support.

The Mass-destruction could easily move over to Glorfindel or the Twins, who are known to have been outside Rivendell during the War of the Ring; Glorfindel at the Bruinen, and the Twins for example in the Grey Company (they also were among the scouts which Elrond sent out before the Fellowship left).

I think I'll add my own proposal for Elrond soon. Until that, I can only say that I agree with OakenShield and Julio.

Signed,
The Walking Death

PS: After writing this, I read the new comment by Tiberius Ogden, and I have to say, that I could really make arguments against all of the arguments that were used against OakenShields arguments, but I'm tired now and I'll do that tomorrow. Even Ringwraiths need some sleep.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 01:23
Zitat
Galadriel seems more a jack-of-all trades at the moment, with one
ability that causes fear, two hero-support-abilities, one mass-destroying ability and one unit-/building-support

Her basic skillset maybe, but through the gifts she is the best hero supporter in the entire game because all of her abilities affect heroes what makes from her clear hero support.

Zitat
The Mass-destruction could easily move over to Glorfindel or the Twins

I think I'll add my own proposal for Elrond soon.

Then we're waiting on your proposal of new tank hero or hero killer in Imladris as well. It will be revolutionary rework of heroes from hidden sanctuary. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Jan 2019, 02:58
Tiberius has already answered Oak's points, but I would like to offer my insight on things, too, in hopes that my comment could clear present or future doubts.
The following reply is therefore just to Oak's in-depth review of the concept.



Thank you for the detailed and thorough response, Oak. You gave me the precious opportunity to clarify a few things about the whole debate backing our choice, its peculiar traits and why we have come to such conclusion. I will even seize the chance to address other points that may have been perceived as a bit obscure or unclear in the main.

If you wish to withdraw, either momentarily or indefinitely, your positive vote, just let me know :)

Well, where to begin? I'll try to reply to every one of your remarks, in the briefest, most comprehensible way possible.

First of all, I can assure you that the team has spent unspeakable energy to make comebacks less of a dream for players; this is going to have a huge impact on the economy and command points. Secondarily, I'm of the sincere opinion that an invincible castle/camp would play out well. Imladris is a strong late-game faction, but it also cherishes quality above everything else. Even if Elven troops may be recruited already-upgraded via the spellbook, building up your army requires considerable efforts. Waiting inside the safety and bliss of your base for a while can be decisive, allowing you to weigh the moment carefully and judge whether it's worth sallying out or not.
Lore-wise, a defensive, fortress-centred feature suits the own history of Rivendell. More than other renditions would do, especially if another solution might lean towards offensive tactics.

Arwen is the supportive hero par excellence. A unit-supporter and hero-supporter character by definition. This is manifestly represented through both her abilities and the bonus conferred by her eponymous spell. If it weren't so, I have no idea which role could be appointed to her. And, if her holistic performance seems quite 'moderate', it's simply because of the fact that she's not a major hero of the faction. She was never meant to be a force to be reckoned with anyway.

Angmar and Arnor have (would have) similar features? Yes, they do, but I don't let that type of argument alter my view. The former is an evil faction and the own power will shroud the base in a nasty snowstorm, wherefore relating to a substantially different conceptualisation and connotation (fell winds and storm). As for the latter, I've never really paid attention to the glorious Northern Kingdom so far; not out of disinterest, but the faction is objectively a sui generis case. That is, a special typology of faction, which is not even available on every map. Not an ordinary faction, so to say. Nevertheless, in your words, if there are two similar abilities already, I think it would be unwise of us to aim for an additional third, wouldn't it?
Apart from all aforesaid considerations, I've never categorically excluded an option just because there was another that worked pretty much in the same way. My whole uniqueness argument revolved around deeper analogies (I will illustrate this in the next passage).

Now, we've come to Vilya and restoration. I will respond with three preponderant explanations, which I consider the most compelling points. I would also like to remind that our final concept arose from many difficulties and previous scrapped iterations; we have never been so fixated on invincibility by default. It was rather the most reasonable destination whereto all roads seemed to head.

1. Aulë has come up with a couple of interesting ideas. However, we have since ruled out passive effects or that sort of influence. The ability, which should fulfil its ultimate nature at the same time, would either be boring or totally underwhelming, not to mention that someone has even proposed to move the Ring of Air to lower levels. In short, we had to find a proper level-10, mighty display that would also comply with what we sought to create (a tool slowing decay and granting universal preservation). We have examined options after options, until we agreed that invincibility would serve our purpose better, making for an enough appealing ability.

2. You're right, he's a sensational healer, worthy of the praise of annals and myths. Only, if I were to accept your statement, then we should probably aim at healing in its purest sense: healing units or heroes, and not replenishing their abilities. That's the most immediate way to portray such 'individual' kind of healing: mending physical wounds. Replenishment appears to be more in tune with what Galadriel is expected do in the game; I mean, the power to renew others' strength or, better, magical capabilities (hence the reference to the reborn Gandalf; she gave him no additional powers, but clothed him in white and appointed the wizard as the Wise's head). Her saint-like apparition in ROTK, from which her new ability feeds, fits much better the very idea of restoring another's vigour (without necessarily curing them completely).
If we are to keep Galadriel's design unique, Elrond could not get his current restoration back, but merely another, redundant, healing skill (out of place, unimaginative, and overcrowding the faction with too much means bearing the same function).

According to his personal eventful story, Elrond could be a wide variety of things: a healer, a commander, a seer/prophet, a sorcerer or an incredibly wise ruler. How many roles would he be supposed to occupy, then? We have to choose a clear direction and proceed forward. From our part, we chose a formidable, 3000-resource mass-slayer, instead of the current multitasking hero (whose price doesn't even do him justice), who will sport unit-supporter and building-supporter traits nonetheless.

3. The following is one of the most meaningful arguments I could think about. The exact essence of our proposal:
From my very first 2015 suggestion regarding Nenya (very precocious, yet ahead of the time as well), to my other grand proposal in respect with Narya, and further onward unto our latest concept gravitating around Vilya, you can notice a single thread uniting all these three discussions: the Three Rings.

Our imperative goal is, in fact, to endow each of the Three with an appropriate characterisation, while correcting what has (unfortunately) been a recurrent issue in the Mod for long time, staying always true to the precise reason why these Rings had been forged in the first place. Therefore, long-time beneficial effects for both the bearer and his whole realm (faction).
The Ring of Air will (hopefully) safeguard the Valley via the most powerful kind of protection (though base-bound), the Ring of Water will cleanse dirt, stains and sorrows away, and it does that globally (mirroring the vast shield defending the Golden Wood and Galadriel purifying the entire forest of Mirkwood after the War of the Ring), whereas the Ring of Fire is to work on an individual basis, relieving Gandalf from the heavy burdens entailed by his perilous mission. Invincibility towers over any other rendition whatsoever, since Vilya is the highest in hierarchy. This is THE goal. Going back to past, surpassed logic of healing/restoring features or mobile tornadoes would unequivocally negate so fundamental an objective, disrupting one major tale of the books.

Finally, what kind of 'analogy' was I hinting at above? The answer is simple: Elrond and Galadriel. Two mighty High Elves who happen to be keepers of two of the Three, two extremely mighty heroes of the game's Elven factions, the two leaders of said factions, and they're also, respectively, son-in-law and mother-in-law to each other. Making a comparison between them is more than legitimate, I guess :P
In this perspective, replenishing heroic abilities would not be unique, should it refer to both heroes, and likewise would healing (currently, how Nenya's magic affects allied buildings and units).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 30. Jan 2019, 14:29
I'd like to offer my point of view on the arguments both Walk and Tiberius have used. I'll try to do my best to answer each and every one of them, and so, I will answer to both comments in different parts of this same post  :P

Firstly, Tiberius' comment:


Firstly, about the Angmar power, the invulnerability included on it isn't permanent. It's an option with a cooldown that lasts for a limited time, and has an effect on buildings only. It's also (as said before) an option of a Tier 4 power, which makes it more reasonable in my opinion. On the other hand, this would be a level 10 ability for a hero (far easier to reach) that would have an effect on not only buildings, but units and heroes if I understand it correctly. This disparity, however good thematically the idea may be, strikes me as an unbalance between the two, since the Angmar option is harder to get and weaker, while the Imladris one is easier to get and much more stronger. Invulnerability for not only buildings, but heroes and units is an effect I'd think is too much, so to speak, to be included and be balanced at the same time.

Secondly, about there not being a possibility for a better concept: there can always be one. Invulnerability as a whole is, while fitting, a very basic concept. Moreover, this iteration of it seems to be too strong for it to fit into regular gameplay. More ideas can always be crafted to find a maybe more fitting, more unique and more balanced option.

About Elrond's roles, I'd say that throughout the whole Tolkien stories and even the movies, Elrond doesn't get much of a foundation to be a Mass Slayer. Rather, emphasis on Elrond is as a healing expert, wise elf, that served as Gil-Galad's herald. Not even the Dol Guldur scenes showed much in the way of him being a Mass Slayer, and that's his most combat-heavy segment on the cinematic trilogies. There's simply not much to just focus on him as a Mass Slayer (not that I don't like that aspect on him in Edain), and just forgo what are his most important aspects. Moreover, I don't get the relevancy of his Mass Slayer role in the argument if the ability that he's going to get is not related to that role, after all. Imladris does have a lot of importance as a healing place, but Elrond is a big part of it.

About the argument of "throwing Edain roles under the train", I don't really find it appropriate for the discussion at hand when the ability that is suggested is not befitting of that role either. Not all of the Edain heroes follow a strict role, many of them are quite versatile and I don't see why Elrond of all people should be restricted.

About Arwen, after her spellbook power got changed in 4.5 all she gets in the way of Hero Support is healing, twice. Not only is her healing level 2 (or something like that) skill not that good (I at least don't remember it being as useful as Athelas), but now she has two "parts" of her geared for healing. I for one don't find it really unique, it is certainly less unique than an Arnor and an Imladris hero having a similar ability, but Arwen is not the main point of this discussion after all.

About Restoration being not unique and a vanilla ability, I'd say it was one of the more unique vanilla abilities after all, and still manages to keep its uniqueness and reflect greatly on Elrond's main aspects. Many of the vanilla abilities have held up well to this day, and are included on many heroes. This one reflects Elrond's character specially well, so I don't see why he should lose such an iconic ability from the vanilla days that actually reflects him well.

About the mount and Ancient Equipment, they could be rolled out into the same power. The effects are different, but an ability can have both passive and active effects at the same time. It could give the bonuses it has as a passive effect, and be activated to mount a horse, actually freeing up a skill slot.

About Aranarth having Restoration and so it being a reason to remove Elrond's: Arnor and Imladris are two different factions, I don't think there are issues between them sharing a power when they actually share two other whole heroes. I find a bigger issue with the Arwen point stated before, where she has a healing power and her spellbook power unlocks more healing too. That is even less unique in my opinion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


First, about comebacks and the use the invincibility would have: The team have made great efforts in making comebacks a possibility, yeah, and I'm fine with Angmar's own power of getting an invincible fortress since it comes late, but the effect of Elrond's power would have an effect on units and heroes too, and I don't think it is possible to strip the units out of their invulnerability once they are blessed with it, if they go outside of the fortress. Thus, it could lead to situations like Imladris Cavalry destroying the enemy army without it having a single chance to react. While it would be a comeback, I don't think it would be fair. That is only one of many situations that could arise and provide for gameplay that wouldn't exactly be fun for both parties or balanced. I don't deny that the concept is fitting, but I believe it is too much, taking that it would be a hero's level 10 power into account.

About Arwen, I can agree on it being well represented on the unit support front. I specially like Blessed Banner, for example. However, with the spellbook power changing, Arwen's hero support capabilities have simply been reduced to healing. Unless something else was added to the spellbook power after the news and I don't remember  :P I believe two healing powers, while it could be a strong combination (as I stated before, I don't find her healing ability unlocked at like level 2 to be that good) is enough to make her stand out as a hero supporter, if the role she has is to be strong on both the hero and unit supporting fields.

About Angmar, the argument intended for it wasn't really to argue against the Imladris power's uniqueness, rather about the strength it would have, for how easy it is to get. In that regard, the Imladris power far surpassed the Angmar power while being easier to get.

About it being the best fitting ability for the concept, I believe my answer to Tiberius fits this one aswell. The current iteration of it is too strong when compared to a harder to get similar ability, invulnerability is not that unique in my opinion, and while the concept does fit the idea of Vilya, I'm sure a fitting concept can always be crafted that could be more unique and more balanced than the current one.

About Elrond's healing, I'd say the restoration of abilities could also fit the nature of Imladris and Elrond's healing abilities, as it is known as a resting place. Not only entailing healing, but also renewing of strength as Galadriel fits too, in my opinion. And as I stated with Aranarth's power before, I don't think uniqueness is really an issue for the power to be in three different factions, specially because in my opinion Restoration is kind of special in this regard: while other powers that were shared in the past like Arrow Volley or the infamous Eagles were in so many factions, they were always used for exactly the same thing and didn't have much variation (with just small variations in how arrows fell in the case of Arrow Volley). Moreover, these were spellbook powers and thus more "prominent" in the sense of reflecting the whole faction, thus, making it as a whole lose uniqueness for it. However, on the case of specifically Restoration, while it would be present on three different factions, the fact that each of these have completely different sets of hero powers makes Restoration itself work completely different from each other iteration of it in the game, Aranarth's restoration opens paths that Elrond's can't, while Elrond can use it in ways that Aranarth wouldn't be able to. The very nature of the power lends itself to still be unique even though it is on more than one faction.

About the Three Rings argument, I believe I can fall back to my previous argument about the concept's fittingness. There is no doubt it does fit the ideas behind it and reflect Vilya's nature, but I believe a better effect for it could be found for the sake of balance and uniqueness, since while the concept is fitting, in my opinion it doesn't quite fulfill the other two.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that was a lot  :D

Overall, I believe the best way to go about making Elrond a better reflection of his lore self while keeping him reasonably balanced would be to merge his Ancient Equipment and Mount skills, to free up a slot, keep Restoration, and then craft a new effect for Vilya that manages to be fitting, unique and balanced.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 14:49
Ok guys,

so we're eagerly waiting on your proposals and want to hear from you how to solve these issues:

1) Explain why mass slayer should have clear hero support ability in his skillset, which currently has Aranarath and will have Galadriel, who are hero supporters. And which current mass slayer skill want to replace?
2) If Elrond shouldn't be mass slayer, but hero supporter, then who will be the new mass slayer in Imladris and which abilities will have?
3) Which effects Vilya will have in order to be the mightiest of the three elven rings, when Nenya is represented this way:
Zitat
- Rank 10: Nenya's Cleansing. All allied units and buildings on the map are continously healed for a long duration. Units in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts of Lorien additionally become fearless and can't be knocked to the ground. Buildings in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts are immune to fire.
?

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 30. Jan 2019, 14:57
Julio229, Fully agree with your arguments!
Tiberius, Remove one skill of a mass slayer is not necessary, if you combine a mount and Ancient Equipment. In this case, one slot is released for Vilya.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 15:00
Yeah, I can read, just want to see the exact skill with description how it will work in his skillset. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Jan 2019, 15:14
Tiberius makes some compelling points, indeed. I would love to blend all our different suggestions together, and then come up with a compromise, but that would not work and I'll show you why:

- Elrond would access his steed and leadership at level 3, therefore earlier. It's the only proper level available.
- He would then use Restoration at level 5 and Wuthering Gale at level 7, or vice versa.
- And, on top of all, we still need to find an accurate effect for Vilya which should fit its ultimate nature, be in the limits of common sense and balance, and surpass the current magic of Nenya, that is already a very imposing of a display.

Don't you think we would give birth to an overpowered, fourfold-role monstrosity? [ugly]
A 5000-resource super-Elf...
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Bogdan Hmel am 30. Jan 2019, 15:33
I have already made my suggestions, although they really seriously strengthen Elrond. But, if you remove them and leave one, then I find this idea interesting (I think everyone considers their suggestions interesting  :P):
Ring Vilya. Lord of Imladris uses the strongest of the ring to heal wounds and protect allies. With gaining levels, this ability is enhanced. Level 1: Allies near Elrond slowly restore health when not fighting. Level 4: Allies get protection from poison and elemental damage. Level 6: Allies get protection from magic, buildings near Elrond — +50% armor. Level 9: The allies near Elrond get immune to fear, and enemies lose 10-15% of their movement speed. (This shows how Vilya slows down the passage of time).
The advantage of Vilya over the other two rings will be that it works from level 1 and over time protects your troops more and more. And the skill is passive, which makes it unique compared to other rings.
P.s. But in this case, we have to remove the Arwen banner, as it also provides healing.
P.s.s. I always loved her ability to summon the Strider ;)

EDIT:
Yeah, I can read, just want to see the exact skill with description how it will work in his skillset. ;)
I think people can just express their opinion on the proposed idea, and not necessarily offer an alternative
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Jan 2019, 15:44
It's definitely a unique proposal, but it defies the logic and underlying reasoning behind the Three Rings. That is, as presented to the community, Narya is already supposed to work passively. That's the easiest and most lore-accurate portrayal possible: a Ring operating 'behind the scenes' and in secret, granting its bearer endurance and resistance to fatigue, despair and grief. The Ring of Fire is thereby the best candidate for a feature meant to influence the relative hero from the very start.

The Ring of Air is instead destined to occupy an ultimate spot, and the consequent power should befit its supreme status in the hierarchy. These are the conceptual foundations we wish to stick to :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 16:09

Stronger effect while levelling is already implemented in his first water ability.
Bonuses while Cirdan is levelling has Lindon tower.
And Strider is in Imladris, too.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Only True Witchking am 30. Jan 2019, 22:28
Now, I said I wanted to adress the points Tiberius made in response to OakenShield, but Julio has already done that. So I'll just propose my own idea how Elrond's skillset could look like; it's not a finished concept and instead more a rough outline.

This concept removes the mass-slayer aspect for the most part, and that could move to Glorfindel, Imladris are not really in great Need for a tank in my opinion. I will make a concept for him in another thread, because it obviously has not much to do with the topic.



As I said, it's not a finished concept, and I'd like to hear thoughts. But please don't use the arguments that it would "change too much" or "doesn't fit in the established roles"; because that something is established doesn't mean it's good.
Sometimes, radical changes are the biggest improvements.

Signed,
A very tired Nazgul
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 22:52
I wanted to ask who will be the new tank hero when Glorfindel will take Elrond's mass slayer role.
And then I saw this:

Imladris are not really in great Need for a tank in my opinion

Ok. xD
I've considered Glorfindel to be the most interesting tank hero in the entire game, because he very nice way use light elven magic for his defense, which is pretty lore wise. We sadly can't say that about Thranduil.



It's basically similar to Elrond from 3.8.1 (I was great fan of his abilities by the way and liked them a lot, but I fear that ship has sailed in 4.0).
And who will be the hero healer - only Elrond? And what for Arwen? Or both?

P.S. I'll probably take personally removal of water horses while Elrond is levelling. 8-| :P

About the Three Rings argument, I believe I can fall back to my previous argument about the concept's fittingness. There is no doubt it does fit the ideas behind it and reflect Vilya's nature, but I believe a better effect for it could be found for the sake of balance and uniqueness, since while the concept is fitting, in my opinion it doesn't quite fulfill the other two.

Actually it is unique - there isn't anything in the game what causes invincible base. And concerning balance - last ability of the faction hero who will cost 3 000, can be used only for defense, and its duration will be around 30 - 45 seconds doesn't seem to me OP. On the other hand, current restoration (which can only refresh skillsets, but still) can be used either for offensive or defensive gameplay, because you can refresh in target location not only all of your heroes, but allied heroes as well (imagine Gandalf using all of his mass slayer abilities twice). :o
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 31. Jan 2019, 14:37
Actually it is unique - there isn't anything in the game what causes invincible base. And concerning balance - last ability of the faction hero who will cost 3 000, can be used only for defense, and its duration will be around 30 - 45 seconds doesn't seem to me OP. On the other hand, current restoration (which can only refresh skillsets, but still) can be used either for offensive or defensive gameplay, because you can refresh in target location not only all of your heroes, but allied heroes as well (imagine Gandalf using all of his mass slayer abilities twice). :o

Firstly, you are correct in saying that there are no abilities in 4.4.1 that will lead to an invincible base. However, you have forgotten that 4.5 Angmar will be able to render their base invulnerable (something that I have mentioned in this thread). I know there have been discussions about the thematic differences of a ring of power compared to a snowstorm and fell winds, but the end result is the same.

Then with your arguments about Restoration being able to restore very strong hero abilities, well Imladris doesn’t really have any massive abilities that would have such a big effect on the game if restored (maybe a heal and a couple of fear abilities but that’s about it). Lothlorien would have a lot more destructive abilities (Legolas Arrow Wind, Haldir White Arrow, Celeborn being able to completely wipe out heroes with his abilities) and yet you are completely fine with Lothlorien having the restoration. As for allied heroes, the mod itself is balanced for 1v1 games. However, it should be easy enough to make it so that Restoration would only affect heroes of your faction if it is a balance issue.

With regards to the point about Imladris’ mass slayer hero, does it really need a “heavy” mass slayer like Gandalf, Saruman and Zaphragor (or even Legolas and Gimli)? The faction has the Blademasters which can deal AOE damage to deal with spam. The Wind and Sea lore masters both deal AOE damage and disrupt movement with their basic attacks. Combine the lore masters and you have some more crowd control abilities such as Light Spectrum or Searing Sunlight. The faction already has the best troops in the game. It’s for these reasons that quite a few people are fine with the faction having a “lighter” mass slayer in the form of Elrond especially as it allows his healer aspect to be represented in Restoration. The best heroes are those that are versatile and need more thought and skill to use properly. Focusing Elrond on being a mass slayer to the detriment of the rest of his character, and then giving him an invincibility power at the end just makes him less interesting to use. If you look at current examples of invincibility in the game, I’m not sure that anyone really likes Thorin being able to make a surrounding army invulnerable, and that ability only lasts for 10 seconds. The Elrond ability would be even stronger by affect units, heroes AND buildings plus you’re saying that it would last a lot longer. The Team removed Galadriel’s invincibility for a reason, it doesn’t really make sense to just give it to another hero. 

If you feel the need for Imladris to improve their mass slaying, then Glorfindel’s abilities could easily be slightly adjusted to make him a “lighter” mass slayer while also keeping some of his tank aspects. You also keep mentioning that Arwen is the “healer” of the faction. I don’t really see why this is the case considering she wasn’t able to heal Frodo, flat out said “we must get him to my father” and only he was able to cure Frodo from the effects of the Morgul Blade. If you look at the source material, even Glorfindel or the Twins would be a better representation of a healer considering that Glorfindel actually makes Frodo feel better for a small time and the Twins help Aragorn in helping the wounded in Minas Tirith. Make Arwen a unit and hero supporter all you want (she did support Aragorn after all) but I don’t see the need to make her a healer.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 31. Jan 2019, 15:11
And your proposal for Elrond skillset is? Or you are fine with him as he is now?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 31. Jan 2019, 15:43
And your proposal for Elrond skillset is? Or you are fine with him as he is now?

I'm going completely out of the topic here but I feel this needs to be said. I don't feel like your attitude towards arguments that go against your own or ideas you propose is healthy for the nature of the debate or the concept itself at all. Oak, me and others have presented compelling arguments that could have sparked an actually nice debate (a lot of thought went into them), and so far your responses have ranged from smug remarks, to ignoring the arguments or parts of them, or just flat out asking for a proposal to replace them, then. I do not believe this to be healthy for debate and it is something I believe you could work towards improving. Suggestions do not have to be liked by everyone, if someone has an argument about it, the best way to discuss it is to actually tackle the argument in the right way and not just reply with a smug remark or "show another proposal, then". The current way this discussion is going is certainly not encouraging me to continue discussing after all of my arguments feel like a wasted effort and would certainly not encourage others into entering the discussion. And discussion is the key behind this and every other concept in MU to come to fruition and improve.

I certainly believe that if you put time into answering people's legitimate arguments about it, you could defend the concept in a much, much better way than your current replies are doing.

Finally, I would like my name to be removed of the "in favour" list, if possible. While the concept itself is great, the balance issue and other issues me and others have stated that haven't found a real answer make me take this choice. I am sorry for it, but I don't really feel like I am in favour of this concept anymore.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 31. Jan 2019, 16:01
Julio, of course, I read everything and considering every option and I am glad that you participate (and currently I'm preparing something what reflects BohdanHmel - TheonlytrueWK ideas and yours as well).
Just want to see your concrete skillset suggestions (if you have them, if not, no problem) - you know - for better comparison. :)
It's my style and always was - Walkure knows it.
Because we're maybe "locked" in our vision, that's completely normal, and need to see other alternatives. Concrete ideas which presented BohdanHmel and TheonlytrueWK quite helped, because I think that we're still in the circle in terms of argumentations (you're using our arguments against us and vice verca), so I think that it's time to move forward. At least little bit. xD

And be sure that I don't want to defend at all cost our proposal - why should I? I don't have any insurance that it'll be ever implemented. :P
But it never was about that, just trying to see more alternatives.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 31. Jan 2019, 18:09
I appreciate that both sides of this debate are locked in their own sides and the arguments aren't really going anywhere. However, I'm not really sure I can continue with this discussion at the moment (mainly just lacking the motivation to deal with it). I'll continue if there are any big changes to the overall proposal, but at the moment, I'd have to say that I'm not in favour of the idea. I've explained why I disagree with it already so I won't repeat myself. I wish it could be otherwise but that's just the way things are.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: kmogon am 31. Jan 2019, 20:08
I would like to see rework done to Elrond as he seems to me as not powerfull as it should be and I would like to see his restoration spell gone but right now I'm against idea of invincibility effect which his spell could cast over base. In my opinion inincibility is the most gamebreaking effect that could be aplayed on hero or units. Right now I'm not very happy that Angmar will get similar power. I don't realy know how much it affects gameplay but I cannot accept any more redesigns which include this effect.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 31. Jan 2019, 21:32
I think it's time for all of us to get back to the right tracks. Heated exchanges of opinions could hardly help our cause and most of the times either degenerate further or freeze discussion altogether, despite the 'heat' in there (sorry for the pun). No one should certainly feel forced to participate in whatever debate, or even needs to be teased to come up with some random answer, just for the sake of it; I agree with Julio's consideration, and that is probably the worst way we could conduct a debate, and so we must act in order to avoid such pernicious eventuality.

On the other hand, I encourage everyone willing to immerse themselves into the beauty of concept-making, to try to look at things with the broadest sight possible. We're surely tackling very complex, structural issues which also relate to crucial themes of the canons. Sometimes, being a bit fixated on details (or balance) prevents one from enjoying the whole portrait, and that's a true pity. I believe this is what Tiberius wanted to say; we both are very similar, in that we're two conceptual souls that know very well how much vital creativity is, and often clashed against others who had a different (drier) stance on the matter, but time proved us right. Without a clear creative vision of the entire picture, even if partial and disregarding some aspects, this Mod would silently decay and die as a plant deprived of sunlight; this is the most important lesson I have learnt so far, and that's why I've always supported every brave change which the team has hitherto undertaken (this is evenly true in regards to a couple of MU veterans I and Tiberius had the honour to work with). Anyway, I hope we'll be able to keep ourselves together and finally get through this dark, bleak path. We owe it to our Lord of the Fair Valley :)

My comment will be divided in three parts, as I would like to address various problematics.



Firstly, I want to leave my personal comment on Witch-king's (the user) proposal:

Your general intent is actually quite bold, I recognise that and commend you for the noble proposition of imagining another role for Elrond. However, I say in all honesty, I deem your concept the least convincing and most defect-ridden one, out of all the others that have been showcased to the present day. The reason is simple: it's all a step backward, way backward, to past 3.8.1 logics. Namely, the removal of his water-horse spell I consider a serious loss for his design, given the originality of the feature (scaling of magic); furthermore, the level-1 experience-lending ability will just be doomed to become utterly useless soon after the start of the game, and the introduction of a mere, sheer healing ability just sounds sloppy (how many healing devices can the faction count on already?). Due to the mentioned reasons, I will, gently and respectfully, ignore your suggestions in the following passages. I just cannot figure out how I would be to include any of the afore-indicated conclusions.



Secondly, I feel like remarking some conceptual points of great note; in other words, the pillars sustaining the proposal.

One thing I can't fathom is how we, everyone of us, ended up spiralling in vortex around the idea of a mass-slayer hero, thus obsessing about it in an unhealthy manner. In truth, my and Tiberius' concept doesn't add any mass-slaying ability whatsoever, or strengthen this trait of Elrond even more. We felt that, by removing Restoration, his role would be much clearer and defined, alongside portraying Vilya in a lore-accurate way (therefore 'liberating' the Ring from its connection with the tornado). There's no will, from our part, to turn the hero in an implacable killing machine and our ideas will certainly not take such path. Nonetheless, I'm afraid I have to point it out firmly, affirming so lightly that Elrond has never been a mass-slayer or is not meant to be one, is categorically and factually wrong. We have a precise statement from Lord of Mordor on the issue:

Elrond is meant to be Rivendell's AoE hero, and with three abilities to that effect (flood horses, his passive AoE damage later and Vilya) I'd say hes conceptually well positioned for the role. Of course, if his abilities are too weak they can be easily buffed, but I don't think more fundamental hero reworks are necessary here.

Of course, the comment goes on and adds that no further change is needed, in his opinion. That was more than two years ago, though, and the unexpected has happened in the meantime. For instance, Galadriel was given a great restoring ability based on ROTK, which is a true kind of full restoration, and my Nenya concept was eventually accepted, functioning the Ring according to its own particular lore. I'm therefore convinced that the approaching 4.5 era paves the way for a final completion of said changes: canonical and fitting Three Rings.

As for invincibility and restoration, being the two most recurrent themes we have discussed, I reiterate my position, not because I'll necessarily stick to my own, but these two are quite preponderant arguments, which I'm not ready to renounce.


On top of all, our points regarding the Three Rings surmount everything else. As said, it's the thread underlying all their three concepts. Some of the responses did concede this PARAMOUNT argument, although the relative corrections that were then suggested sometimes went in the opposite direction. Nevertheless, I don't think that staying loyal to such premise equals to a partisan-like retrenchment behind one's safe position. It's quite easy to put it into words: if we do without the Three Rings pillar, the whole construction falls apart.



Now that we are done with the pars destruens, I will deal with the pars construens. That is, after having de-constructed the holistic structure of the concept, I'm about to move forward and propose a constructive solution (viable, hopefully). It's a two-option solution, as we have envisaged until now:

1. Merging our proposals together, retaining the best and acceptable of each possibility. Do be wary, though, that the following is to grant Elrond five (potential) different characterisations/roles, turning him into an Elven deity...

Zitat
ELROND

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/38/Elrond_loudwater_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113524) Level 1: Rage of the Loudwater - Elrond raises the waters of the Bruinen in defence of his people, summoning a powerful flood in the form of a mighty horse to crush enemies in the target area. At levels 3, 5, 7, and 10, an additional flood horse appears (maximum 5). Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/3e/Elrond_ancient_equipment_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171127131415) Level 3: Ancient Equipment - Elrond draws his old sword Hadhafang and puts on his battle armour. Elrond permanently gains +25% armour and inflicts area-of-effect damage. Units in his vicinity also gain +25% armour.
Elrond mounts or dismounts his horse. (Passive and active ability)


(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/8/8e/Elrond_restoration_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 5: Restoration - Elrond uses his healing magic to refresh allied heroes, instantly recharging their ability timers. Does not affect Elrond. Left click icon then left click on target area.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/c/c2/Galadriel_treacherous_as_seas_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170922122227) Level 7: Wuthering Gale - Elrond summons a raging whirlwind around himself which will heavily damage surrounding enemy units, knocking them down and drawing them towards Elrond. Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within your base are blessed with invincibility for a long duration.

2. If people are fine with having Restoration gone, the healing theme (dear to many) might be re-introduced as an additional side of Vilya. For example, lowering heroes' cooldown. This would subsequently increase the Ring's range and beneficial prowess, torpedoing all those concerned about balance.

Any other suggestion is more than welcome. Particularly, resolving Vilya and its in-game display will be the key-issue, I presume. Given the lack of better alternatives, that live up to the ultimate, prime stature of this ruling Ring, I shall rest with my opinion (for now).
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 2. Feb 2019, 15:24
You go too far, my friends. (half-quote)  [ugly] [ugly]
I'm actually sad that great Edainers like Oak and Julio lost their passion about this discussion. I would warmly invite them to come back and don't take the discussion too personally. Also i advice Tiberius to be a bit more patience about others proposal: sometime the flash of inspiration does not come immediatly,especially in a difficult situation like this one. it is useless to keep on doing the same question  :P :P
I have some ideas and i want to discuss them with you. As always i'm open to any correction and/or suggestion:


What do you guys think? What will you change, modify or even throw away about my idea? :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Feb 2019, 18:56
I'm glad you've joined our vast, wide-ranging conversation as well, Aulë :)

With your permission and well-inclined spirit, I fear I have to dismiss your concept, which I nonetheless find a lot imaginative, and move to another direction further. There have been some significant developments, lately. I was in a sort of 'exploration mood', and after a dense discussion (brain-storming) with Julio and Oak on Discord, I think we might be very close to a decent result, that would take all our thoughts and concerns into careful consideration.

(Note aside: it's true that I and Tiberius had pondered about the possibility of passive effects for Vilya, but we have ultimately scrapped every akin plan, since the inherent potential of such tool would have been halved; of even greater importance, we absolutely want to get rid of any thematic relation with air-natured logics/mechanics, in the same way as Nenya is not strictly tied to water. That's an imperative path we have set ourselves on.)

I hope you'll see the reason behind my final decision ;)



Hence, I would like to re-formulate (modify) the concept as follows:

Zitat
ELROND

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/38/Elrond_loudwater_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113524) Level 1: Rage of the Loudwater - Elrond raises the waters of the Bruinen in defence of his people, summoning a powerful flood in the form of a mighty horse to crush enemies in the target area. At levels 3, 5, 7, and 10, an additional flood horse appears (maximum 5). Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/3e/Elrond_ancient_equipment_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171127131415) Level 3: Ancient Equipment - Elrond draws his old sword Hadhafang and puts on his battle armour. Elrond permanently gains +25% armour and inflicts area-of-effect damage. Units in his vicinity also gain +25% armour.
Elrond mounts or dismounts his horse. (Passive and active ability)


(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/8/8e/Elrond_restoration_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 5: Restoration - Elrond uses his healing magic to refresh allied heroes, instantly recharging their ability timers. Does not affect Elrond. Left click icon then left click on target area.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/c/c2/Galadriel_treacherous_as_seas_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170922122227) Level 7: Wuthering Gale - Elrond summons a raging whirlwind around himself which will heavily damage surrounding enemy units, knocking them down and drawing them towards Elrond. Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya shields Middle-earth from decay and woe. All buildings, heroes and units within allied bases receive -100% damage (any type) for a long duration (45 seconds).

These are the main arguments at the kernel of this proposal:

1. For the jubilation of many, we shall retain restoration as it is now. That is, refreshing heroic abilities in a radius. So, we save the healing aspect of his characterisation, which some did not want to see gone and which I cannot incorporate into the Ring of Air (without messing things up).

2. Keeping his water-horses intact is functional for his underlying, apparent mass-slayer role. The same is true in respect to his level-3 leadership (now combined with the mount); we therefore spared a precious slot!

3. Let us talk about Vilya: as you may have noticed, it no longer grants invincibility. While I mourn the loss of so incredible a rendition, I made sure to explore our utmost preservation theme in another manner. In other words, I think that relieving buildings, troops and heroes from damage (all natures), grief and pain, is equally fitting for the scope. In force of this latest modification, additionally, the Ring shall also provide a magical shield to all your allies (their respective bases). This is meant to increase the own capacity of Vilya in terms of sheer power, when compared to Nenya, and reference another major piece of the canons:

Zitat
In fact, I remember having read this from an accurate lore source, the Three Rings (thanks to their combined influence) also ensured that there was a minimum amount of order in a troubled Middle-earth, even though their beautifying aura did not leave visible traces in non-Elven territories. For want of better words, beside from preserving immortal places, they had maintained an adequate level of equilibrium in a world growing chill and disenchanted, so that magic could still prosper (in some defined areas) and the earth was not left to its wistful destiny.

In order to summarise it better:
- Vilya will be overall stronger than Nenya.
- The Ring is still centred on bases only.
- Our decay/preservation argument is dealt with differently, but still effectively.
- Vilya, unlike Angmar's fell blizzards and snow, is going to affect all allied bases, and also units and heroes.
- It works for all forces of the Good; otherwise, limiting its range would probably have seemed quite egotistical and not altruistic (not really typical of Elrond).
- It stays as an exclusively-supportive feature, now more flexible and game-determining.
- Values are justified for its status as a final ability. I consider the '100 milestone' as a psychological threshold we should not cross (downward).
- It still lasts more than the Ring of Water.

NOTE: Someone might rightly argue that such rendition is too much similar to Círdan's ultimate ability, which grants a global armour boost to buildings and siege machines. Then, in order to resolve any possible (unpleasant) repetition, I decided to modify his final skill a little bit. Don't forget that his first ability should already be changed (as suggested in my Narya proposal); furthermore, Círdan is also able to repair buildings. Thirdly, I have already suggested the team rename his last ability as 'Tutelage of Ossë'.
So, given the mentioned premises, his ultimate ability has a new effect, reflecting the tumultuous, turbulent temperament of the storm-Maia:

Zitat
(http://i.imgur.com/s5x6emD.gif) Level 10: Tutelage of Ossë - Thanks to the ancestral teachings of Ossë, Círdan grants all ships and siege weapons across the map +30% armour, +20% attack and +15% speed for a duration.

I feel it's the best compromise we could hope for. Feel free to give your feedback :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 2. Feb 2019, 19:23
I've lost passion as well.


Currently there are three groups of person:
1) Bounded by Edain roles that respect Elrond's mass slayer role, that's why they want to remove current restoration, and additionaly want to make him and Vilya more important.
2) Others who want Elrond from 3.8.1 (basically hero supporter plus some mix abilities) which would mean completely change his role and eventually change roles in the whole faction.
3) And people who think that there can be some changes but restoration must stay and Vilya's invincibility is strong.

Problem is that we're discussing roles in Edain, in general, and not Elrond as a one hero. We didn't think with Walkure that debate will take this direction. :P

You know, for us, current restoration doesn't seem interesting because it's without healing effect, in only refreshes. And mainly - it's pure hero support ability.
We wanted to keep three mass slayer abilities and add one general ultimate ability that would highlight Elrond's importance. Nothing more. Just slight rework to finish his overall rework which we started somewhere in 2015. 

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Feb 2019, 20:38
We wanted to keep three mass slayer abilities and add one general ultimate ability that would highlight Elrond's importance. Nothing more. Just slight rework to finish his overall rework which we started somewhere in 2015.

You could not have recapitulated our situation better :D

True, we didn't expect such turn and twist. Nevertheless, I think our last iteration keeps the main points together, in order to satisfy the majority's needs. We just had to find a common ground and still remain loyal to the pillars sustaining the concept: focus on his mass-slayer nature, retaining Restoration and reworking Vilya lore-accurately.

To the people who fancy Elrond's past 3.8.1 design, I say this: I'm sorry, but I won't proceed in that direction. We won't take that path. I strongly believe that experience-lending features, sheer healing or mobile tornadoes would just turn the clock back, resembling outdated solutions which could not simply fare well in Edain 4.5.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 2. Feb 2019, 21:40
All the proposals that were suggested here are well-thought and fitting, yet I must say the last one you created with cooperation is the best of all. The skillset, that you ended up with, totally unlocks Elrond's true power, which I believe was the main goal of this thread. Really nice job!

I completely agree with combining his Ancient Equipment and his Mount, thus making it even more unique and leaving space for another ability. If you are to proceed with this idea, how about changing the icon of the Ancient Equipment with this image:


In this picture Elrond is wearing his armor while mounting his horse as well, thus showing the passive and the active effect of the newly combined ability. What do you think about this my friends?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Feb 2019, 22:09
Thank you for the kind words. I deem it a comprehensive ensemble as well ;)

Your idea makes sense, but, just by glancing at it, I don't think the image can be cropped decently, so to show his armour and the horse correctly. In doubt, I would still stick to the current icon, taken from Hugo Weaving's (the actor playing Elrond) official photo shoot for the Hobbit; as you can see, he's clearly striking the right pose 8-)


As Tiberius is used to remarking, he's a sort of fashion icon ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 2. Feb 2019, 22:31
Yeah, actually it came to my mind that the picture couldn't be cut so that it depicts both aspects of the ability. Anyway, the current one is still amazing and I also like Hugo Weaving's pose in this image. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 4. Feb 2019, 18:42
Two things:

1) When some people think that Elrond is great healer and it must be reflected in his skillset .. shouldn't we talk about some healing skill rather than hero refreshment that already have two hero supporters in the game?
Because it will lead us to Arwen who will have two healing-hero oriented skills (one normally and second via spell).
2) I don't know if -100% attack for Vilya sounds cool and magically like invincibility ... What's the difference between these two effects? 8-|
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Feb 2019, 21:29
1. I've asked the exact same thing to the 'healer side', and strongly advised against similar reasonings. Anyway, I've always been fine with Restoration, conceptually. It does fit Elrond, but it mines deep in another, slightly different aspect: Rivendell is a place of rest and solace, where heroes renew their worried minds and depleted strengths. As you can see, it's not really identical to sheer healing; I agree with you on this needed distinction. Apart from conceptual clarifications, it makes no difference to me. The ability will stay and no additional slot is going to be sacrificed.

2. It means that, no matter which spell, destructive heroic ability or weapon, your buildings, heroes and units within the radius will be preserved from any typology of damage, thus halving and neutralising most part of the negative effects caused by whatever hostile manoeuvre. In contrast with Nenya, Vilya's magic is to last longer, affect heroes, and soak up any possible feature's damage; the last task the Ring of Water cannot perform, since it simply heals the target, without interfering (directly or indirectly) with your opponent's spells or heroes, and thank you very much. The hierarchy among the Three is thereby respected.

Of course, I would have loved the Ring of Air to grant invincibility. However, some people were quite uneasy about it and balance-related points would go against a too great duration. In order to compensate for this effect switch, Vilya shall bless all allied bases, too (and everyone inside). I thought it would be better to involve allies equally, because, according to the aforementioned interpretation, the Ring also ensures that a minimum level of order is maintained in the world, in spite of wars or other troubles. This way, we have also reaffirmed Vilya's hegemony as the ruling Ring (of the Three).

Note that, in addition, the ability will truly be unique. It bears no resemblance to Dwarves' invulnerability or Angmar's snowstorm.
On top of all, our own precious 'Three Rings axiom' is still valid:

NARYA - Endurance
NENYA - Cure/Healing
VILYA - Protection

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/19/52/68/1952680fc120a77f4c8299a725cba1c1.jpg)

After having reached this compromise, I hope that Julio, Oak and Aulë will reconsider their stance. Blue Wizard was also interested, as long as we reintroduced healing or restoring traits pertaining to the character. Nevertheless, talks on Discord have been fruitful and very useful, to get people back to forum discussions. I hope you'll see reason :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 5. Feb 2019, 00:31
Why I now think that Elrond will be conceptually even more broken than is now? 8-|
Instant refreshment fits to Galadriel, she instanly refreshed Frodo and Gandalf in the movie, not Elrond, Elrond was well known healer and healed Frodo, but it took quite a time.
Horse - do we have any precedent from the game that horse skill is combined with passive ability? For me it's quite odd.
And concerning Vilya ... I don't know, invincibility sounded magically, -100% sounds like some debuff ... yes, Angmar fortress, but honestly I also don't know how snowstorm can make things invincible.
There must be something more powerful, magical, and balance-wiser, than this ... I am sure of it, we just don't have in front of our nose for now, we should keep discussing ...
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 5. Feb 2019, 17:02
Hey there, friends of old!

I see that many of those who comment desire things that maybe be against lore, to them -and also to the fellow edain companions- i ask:

Who is Elrond witthout Vilya?

Because we have dear Tiberius & Walküre explaining what are the elven rings and more properly Vilya and its power.

If something may fit the ring bearers -save Frodo & ring heroes- is that the double palantir should be aplied. Because it is not only one single power that the ring gives  to them.

In the end i think we should first debate what can Elrond do without the mightiest of the three for he never shown he had it but did use it when it might.

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Feb 2019, 17:46
Why I now think that Elrond will be conceptually even more broken than is now? 8-|
Instant refreshment fits to Galadriel, she instanly refreshed Frodo and Gandalf in the movie, not Elrond, Elrond was well known healer and healed Frodo, but it took quite a time.
Horse - do we have any precedent from the game that horse skill is combined with passive ability? For me it's quite odd.
And concerning Vilya ... I don't know, invincibility sounded magically, -100% sounds like some debuff ... yes, Angmar fortress, but honestly I also don't know how snowstorm can make things invincible.
There must be something more powerful, magical, and balance-wiser, than this ... I am sure of it, we just don't have in front of our nose for now, we should keep discussing ...

Instant refreshment does fit Galadriel, I agree, and that's why she will fully refresh the target hero, including health. Ergo: a unique, complete kind of restoration. The one Elrond performs we could regard as a secondary hero-supporter trait of his, which doesn't interfere with Arwen's influence (she heals only). I think it's a reasonable addition to enrich his power set with, as the banishment is for Galadriel (a mass-slayer and hero-interferer trait). Plus, it has more to do with Rivendell's renowned fame as a resting place, rather than the Lord's own healing knowledge.

I don't think we have one, but it makes enormous sense: I consider the horse as an integral part of his 'ancient equipment', when he would lead Elven battalions to war, during his years at the service of Gil-galad (as his most trusted herald). Also, it's possible to merge the two abilities together, since one of them is passive (it would not be as nice, say, if we were to combine Gandalf's mount with one of his super-active abilities).

I fear there is no other (suitable) alternative to preservation from all kinds of damage, even though it's not sheer invincibility (that carries the mentioned complications). Searching to and fro, within the good side, I cannot find anything worth choosing: healing is already taken and resistance against nature-type damages belongs to Narya. Remember that we also need to make sure that Vilya's effect surpasses Nenya's in might; concerning its whole magical feeling, I'm working with Aulë on some ideas for a decently satisfying rendition.

I don't believe he would end up being broken, role-wise. As you've written in your previous comment, our intent has never been centred on roles. We just wanted to focus a little bit more on mass-slaying skills, while correcting Vilya (which is my foremost goal). The current compromise leaves things quite unaltered, given that he's still going to be a mass-slayer, with a hero-supporter aspect. If anything, he's now stronger and more useful in combat, but this has been balanced through his suggested 3000-resource price.

Hey there, friends of old!

I see that many of those who comment desire things that maybe be against lore, to them -and also to the fellow edain companions- i ask:

Who is Elrond witthout Vilya?

Because we have dear Tiberius & Walküre explaining what are the elven rings and more properly Vilya and its power.

If something may fit the ring bearers -save Frodo & ring heroes- is that the double palantir should be aplied. Because it is not only one single power that the ring gives  to them.

In the end i think we should first debate what can Elrond do without the mightiest of the three for he never shown he had it but did use it when it might.

He has never summoned mobile tornadoes, to be sure :D

Vilya's powers are quite tricky to debate, as they're overall very similar to what Nenya does. In the books, we have ample evidence of the wonders that both Rings have accomplished; on top of all, the fact of establishing two timeless sanctuaries in Middle-earth, immune to decay and evil. The fact is, though, we are never told about what really makes Vilya superior and higher in status, apart from Imladris mirroring the Lonely Island beyond the sundering seas. According to an interpretation I've once come across, the Ring of Air might be endowed with an additional global effect: maintaining a minimum level of order and peace in the world, though wars and hardship are not necessarily avoided. I'm striving and doing my utmost best to portray such themes in the most lore-accurate way possible :)

By the way, thank you for following forum discussions after so much time. I always remember you with fondness ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 5. Feb 2019, 19:30
Now that you say it, "Vilya's powers are quite tricky to debate, as they're overall very similar to what Nenya does"

Could both of them have mirror effects?

For example:

Nenya's protection: Units near Gladys only recieve half the damage.
Vilya's protection: Units near the fortress only recieve half the damage.

Vilya's restoration: Units near Elrond are slowly cured, even in the heat of battle.
Nenya's restoration: Unit near the fortress are slowly cured, even in the heat of battle.

Or something like that, so  it makes clear that both of them serve for keeping away the worlds decay & restores injuries from battle.

Also glad to read you remember me that way ^^, I do feel the same for you, old friend.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Feb 2019, 21:15
I think the current display already references this similarity between the two: both affect units and buildings, serving an exquisitely supportive purpose. The Three Rings in general, hopefully, will be characterised by beneficial effects. Mixing healing and protection together, however, would not differentiate the two strategically and conceptually. We must retain some degree of variation.

I hope you'll see the thorough, compelling reasons behind such lore foundations, at the core of our concept. That would mean a lot :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 6. Feb 2019, 02:37
I see, but it wasn't meant to be "Mixing healing and protection together", that was an  exempli causa :D :D

Btw i still think that the power of the three shouldn't be only for the lvl 10 abilty, but have rather a new palantir or a step by step improvement.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Feb 2019, 19:02
I rather meant to say that we should be careful about choosing too similar effects, for the sake of clarity. I'm worried that your proposal could create some confusion. Instead, we'll give Vilya its own spot, and we're going to follow our Three Rings guidelines in the meantime.

There's someone else who quotes Latin expressions! I thought I was the only one throughout the diverse halls of MU. Welcome to the club :D

In that case, rationis gratiā, I deduce from our lengthy essays that we ought to stick to the current iteration, for which we much strove and eventually found a nice compromise. That's why the Ring of Air should stay where it is now, because this is the logic that is widely and predominantly accepted in Edain: Rings of Power deserve their relative ultimate status :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AmosVogel am 6. Feb 2019, 20:03
So be it, my friend. Let the course of ring bearers stick to the current iteration  xD

Alea iacta est  ;)

I support +1
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Feb 2019, 21:50
So be it, my friend. Let the course of ring bearers stick to the current iteration  xD

Alea iacta est  ;)

I support +1

Thank you, from the depth of my heart, for partaking once again in an adventurous enterprise of ours. We long to see this bold concept in the game, and, given its intrinsic boldness, I shall say:

Zitat
FORTUNA AUDACES IUVAT 8-)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 7. Feb 2019, 13:16
Paradoxially I must unstick my dafur. Elrond now seems to me unfocused, OP even more than Gandalf and others, and Vilya's effect is not interesting ...
He isn't reworked to be more clear as we wanted.
This compromise just added one ultimate ability to already full skilset. :o :P
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Feb 2019, 15:22
I would be more than willing to change idea, if someone provided some illuminating solutions that could please everybody and be shared unanimously. I'm afraid that this is not possible, since most parties are stuck in their respective front. Personally, moreover, I don't find his design overpowered at all, as isn't Gandalf's in equal terms; they're just good at what they're supposed to do. 3000 resources must also mean something, I presume.

Quoting your previous comment, our intention was simply aimed at fixing the current, lore-inaccurate portraiture of Vilya, staying loyal to our Three Rings premise, while retaining three mass-slayer abilities/aspects (water-horses, splash-type attack and whirlwind). This hasn't changed, in fact. If anything, I think it was a general mistake, from all of us, to be that obsessed with roles, especially when discussing a fluid hero like Elrond: a major character of the canons, with a large variety of possible characterisations (support, leadership, mass-slaying and magic). The Edain Team's will is clearly oriented towards mass-slaying, and so my compromise goes likewise.

I'm not very much satisfied with restoration either, but we can't even state that the theme itself would not fit him. And, regarding Vilya, the whole proposal was born out of iteration upon iteration, ruling out several options that would always present issues. If you want, I would love to debate the supposed Ring's influence further, though I doubt it could be of help. Invincibility doesn't really vary so much from -100% received damage; they both reward targets with high resistance against any kind of violent harm. The only diverging element between the two is the actual degree of protection. Invincibility would be hugely fitting, and it was me who had first suggested it, but we have other replicas (more or less) of the feature in the game and the effect does break balance a bit (obliging us to reduce duration).

Other suggestions went in the wrong direction: wind/tornado-related powers, direct healing, resistance against nature-type damages (this is Narya's realm) or building reparation (the role of Círdan). If someone has a better concept to bring to public attention, I would be delighted to put forward other alternatives :)
In the meantime, I would say we're quite alternative-less...

P.S. Remember that every proposed concept is not written in the stone. Some may give consent to a general scope or principle (in our case, finalising a very old overhaul), and not in regards to specific values or choices (always subject to change). I want to believe that the sole fact of having re-opened this thread will give developers enough motivation to finish his design. Very rarely have dense topics been copied and pasted in the game as they had initially been submitted to the community. I hope all our efforts won't be in vain ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 7. Feb 2019, 16:23
Zitat
ELROND

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/38/Elrond_loudwater_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113524) Level 1: Rage of the Loudwater - Elrond raises the waters of the Bruinen in defence of his people, summoning a powerful flood in the form of a mighty horse to crush enemies in the target area. At levels 3, 5, 7, and 10, an additional flood horse appears (maximum 5). Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/d/d4/Faramir_knight_ranger_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170311125827) Level 3: Mount - Elrond mounts or dismounts his horse.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/3/3e/Elrond_ancient_equipment_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171127131415) Level 5: Ancient Equipment - Elrond draws his old sword Hadhafang and puts on his battle armour. Elrond permanently gains +25% armour and inflicts area-of-effect damage. Units in his vicinity also gain +25% armour. (Passive ability)

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/c/c2/Galadriel_treacherous_as_seas_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20170922122227) Level 7: Wuthering Gale - Elrond summons a raging whirlwind around himself which will heavily damage surrounding enemy units, knocking them down and drawing them towards Elrond. Left click to activate.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - All heroes and units in the vicinity of Elrond are continously healed, their abilities slowly restored and along with the structures protected from magic for a long period. Left click to activate.


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7e/c1/27/7ec127cd2a537b51d59e2cd717d73640.jpg)


As you can see I wanted to mirror Nenya and keep Elrond's restoration.

Zitat
- Rank 10: Nenya's Cleansing. All allied units and buildings on the map are continously healed for a long duration. Units in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts of Lorien additionally become fearless and can't be knocked to the ground. Buildings in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts are immune to fire.

Additionally I added Magic immunity (it's mightiest of the three elven rings after all), cause I think that resistance only to Fire and Frost (I'm not sure about Poison) for Narya - ring of fire - would be balance wiser for pure stance system and also more logical.

Zitat
GANDALF'S STANCES

(https://i.imgur.com/cUUV1XB.png) Normal Stance: Narya - The Ring of Fire ensures a proper balance between spell effectiveness and the bubble-shield's frequency.
Narya also preserves its bearer from toil and wear, providing higher resistance against fire and frost.


(https://i.imgur.com/lZThDHD.png) Offensive Stance: Might of the Istar - Gandalf uses his potent magic to fight evil and tyranny. His spell damage is amplified by 50% and his attack by 15%.
On the other hand, his defence is decreased by 25% and his magical bubble-shield is completely disabled, leaving him vulnerable against enemy heroes and monsters.


(https://i.imgur.com/JtQTTWz.png) Defensive Stance: Wizard's Shield - Gandalf conveys all his power to his bubble-shield, to resist any fell menace. His defence is increased by 25% and his bubble-shield's frequency will be a lot higher, granting him protection against units, monsters and heroes.
Conversely, the effort drains part of Gandalf's vigour and his spell damage is then decreased by 50%.

I've mentioned mightiest of the three ... but we know from Tolkien that ring is powerful as its ring bearer. And in terms of power, I am sure that Galadriel can beat Elrond's natural power, so make Nenya stronger than Vilya.

Elrond's price can stay unchanged (2 500).
He is still clear mass slayer, although with faction support aspect, and Vilya has protective purpose, not offensive and mainly isn't OP.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 7. Feb 2019, 17:23
Hi,
I have to say I really like the Elrond rewroke presented above. :)
Just one questione: Is his last skill active or passive?

But in general I'm really  in favor of this change!


 best regardes
Seleukos I.


ps. I hope I have understood your concept correctly ^^
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 7. Feb 2019, 17:37
I really like the Elrond rewroke presented above. :)
Just one questione: Is his last skill active or passive?

Yes, active, but really long duration. I thought about active-passive skill, but Elrond already has one pasive ability in level five, so another, even half passive, wouldn't be interesting.

I also think that Vilya's restoration affecting also units quite fits to Imladris gameplay, cause there are units with many skills.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 7. Feb 2019, 17:48
Yes, that makes sense.
Thanks for the explanation :)
Does it also protect heroes from magic? I think that would be really well fitting and  quite strong as well. Just imagine your heroes would takte no damage from spells like Gandalfs "Istari light" or Mouth of Saurons "Evil Eye". That would be huge.


best regardes
Seleukos I.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 7. Feb 2019, 17:56
Does it also protect heroes from magic? I think that would be really well fitting and  quite strong as well. Just imagine your heroes would takte no damage from spells like Gandalfs "Istari light" or Mouth of Saurons "Evil Eye". That would be huge.

Yes, but only near to Elrond, near to ring. Logic behind Vilya's power is something like that:
Elrond is well known healer, so he uses Vilya to cast restoration across battlefield, and additionally Vilya, as the ring, resonates and provides magic resistance around itself.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Seleukos I. am 7. Feb 2019, 17:58
ok, nice!
I really like this concept. Elronds main role (unit support and mass slayer) stayes untouched, or gets even buffed, and you added some coll new aspects. I like it :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Feb 2019, 18:01
I really like the basic idea: merging (somehow) restoring features with Vilya. Still, I would like to modify the concept a bit. In my opinion, Elrond surely deserves to cost 3000 resources (as a revered Elven sire) and his Ring's effect should be expanded accordingly, so that we can really call it a true blessing. I think it would be great to break down Vilya's influence in three different parts, affecting heroes, units and buildings:

(Note: restoring units' abilities makes sense, but it contrasts with the new central spell, Sanctuary of Knowledge, which already reduces the cooldown of units' abilities.)

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya grants your forces a powerful blessing. All allied buildings within the base get +50% armour and resistance to siege.
Reduces the cooldown of heroic abilities all over the map and that of spells.
Units in the vicinity of Elrond receive -25% damage and are immune to magic.
Lasts for a long duration.

What do you think? Its magic is now truly global and widespread. We're no longer constrained and limited excessively, and restoration, as a theme, is well incorporated.
Círdan's last ability will still change, following my suggestion.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 7. Feb 2019, 18:11
(Note: restoring units' abilities makes sense, but it contrasts with the new central spell, Sanctuary of Knowledge, which already reduces the cooldown of units' abilities.)

Zitat
Sanctuary of Knowledge: Units gather experience twice as fast and their ability cooldowns are reduced by 25%.
Not much - cause spell upgrade is passive and instant, while Vilya's is active and last long. Central spell also corresponds with last ability of the faction hero which quite fits.
By the way Wuthering gale also corresponds with Breeze of Manwe.
This only helps Elrond to be relevant faction hero in his faction.

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya grants your forces a powerful blessing. All allied buildings within the base get +50% armour and resistance to siege.
Reduces the cooldown of heroic abilities all over the map and that of spells.
Units in the vicinity of Elrond receive -25% damage and are immune to magic.
Lasts for a long duration.
What do you think?

You know what is problem for me  xD ... -%25 here, +50% there etc. ... you know, for me it's boring, generic and not magic for Elven rings. And this is also unfocused, no longer "mix man" Elrond please. :P
Attack - armor buff fits to passive ability of levels where hero can receive armor, not for special effects.
I can still see little conflicts with Cirdan's skillset and Elrond's level five skill.

Edit: By the way I've renamed it - from Vilya's restoration to Vilya's preservation, in order to be more loyal to Tolkien and both effects. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Feb 2019, 18:37
I still don't like that possible conflict with the central spell; the ability would be active, but the effect is nonetheless the same. Passive features, associated to cooldown reduction, are quite enough already.

I understand your point. Yet, it is so much hard to imagine grandiose concepts, if the focus is on support and other solutions are used for other abilities. I was intent to craft an ability that would bless the main bodies of the faction: heroes, spells, units and buildings. A broad-affecting blessing. We could do away with bonuses and re-formulate it as follows:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya grants your forces a powerful blessing. All allied buildings within the base have greater resistance to siege.
Reduces the cooldown of heroic abilities all over the map and that of spells.
Units in the vicinity of Elrond are immune to magic.
Lasts for a long duration.

Círdan only repairs structures; also, I've modified his ultimate ability to benefit siege weapons and ships solely :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 7. Feb 2019, 18:48
Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - All heroic abilities in the vicinity of Elrond are continously restored. Buildings, units and heroes in large radius are immune to fire. All allied forces on the map are protected from magic for a long duration. Left click to activate.

Suggestion battle begins! xD
To be serious - I've switched that and added fire resistance. I still fear that armor bonus for base would be OP.

We're still mirroring Nenya, but in different way.
Closer to Vilya and Elrond, stronger the effect.

Zitat
- Rank 10: Nenya's Cleansing. All allied units and buildings on the map are continously healed for a long duration. Units in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts of Lorien additionally become fearless and can't be knocked to the ground. Buildings in the vicinity of heroes with Gifts are immune to fire.

I still think that Vilya is currently on the same level of power like Nenya. Maybe even more powerful, cause in Nenya's case there are limitations concerning Gifts heroes.

I also think that fire resistance should be implemented in all three rings (For structures through gifts heroes in case of Nenya, Narya's fire resistance for Gandalf, and fire resistance for all in Elrond's large radius in Vilya's case). Fire and light were for Tolkien something what is for us magic. I can clearly imagine that preservation power of three elven rings meant protection against fires of Mordor or Isengard.

Preservation is very important trait of Vilya, maybe the most important.
Resistance to Narya, cause maybe only thanks to Narya Gandalf resisted to evil and kept fighting, and as only one Istari fulfilled his task.
And Nenya's cleansing, because after destruction of Dol Guldur, thanks to Galadriel forest was cleansed.

Edit: I would accept global effect for restoration as well:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - All allied buildings, units and heroes on the map are protected from magic. Main base is additionally immune to fire. Heroic abilities are continously restored for a long period. Left click to activate.

Edit 2: And I would risk restoration of unit abilities ... cause it really fits to gameplay and logic behind the concept. After all Arwen heals actively (ability) and passively (spellbook spell) too, so why her father shouldn't?
Now without fire resistance effect.

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Restoration - All heroic and unit abilities are continously restored for a long period. Buildings, units and heroes on the map are protected from magic. Left click to activate.


Edit 3: But possible would be also this: :)
Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - All heroes and units in the vicinity of Elrond are continously healed, their abilities slowly restored and along with the structures protected from magic for a long period. Left click to activate.

It would mean return of vanilla restoration, although slightly reworked with additional effect. While Nenya means global healing with Gifts heroes and their bonuses, Vilya is centered around great healer Elrond who protects his realm agaist enemy magic and overall preserves it thanks to elven ring.
We all know that healing fits to Elrond and fits to Imladris, to Middle-earth spa. Our intentions to beat Nenya were pointless, cause both rings had probably the same effects (only Narya was used in different way - more actively and not centered on one place). We can only assume that Galadriel used Nenya more cleverly to protect her realm, so global effect over the whole forest (faction) quite fits. Imladris was small place, so reduce Vilya's effect on ring bearer vicinity is also quite logical.

If you look on Elrond's full skillset ... heal, restoration, and some additonal effect worthy of ultimate ability (magic) were something that was missing, and now everything is included in one last ability which highlights his role in the faction while his mass slayer role is unchanged.


Edit 4 (and hopefully the last one):

If you want to focus on siege, than pure recyclation of Lorien fortress upgrade would also be fine and even balance wise (cause it only affects siege attacks, and not all spellls, units, heroes like invincibility).


Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - Hidden refugee is immune to siege attacks for a long period. Inside the base heroic abilities are continuously restored.
Left click to activate.

Together with restoration we're really creating hidden sanctuary where heroes can rest and recover without fear that enemy will break the gate.

Edit 5 (and certainly not last)  xD ... but I like it the most to be honest.

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - Magic of the mightiest elven ring preserves Imladris from evil influences. All alied units, heroes and buldings on the map are immune to magic, fire, frost and poison. Heroic abilities are continuously restored for a long period.
Left click to activate.

And for Gandalf's Narya only resistance to fire and frost, it's regular stance after all.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 9. Feb 2019, 16:00
Ok guys, you can finally count me on board about the proposal. I generally agree with the overhaul, even though we still have to solve some main points.
I'll start leaving my idea for Vilya


Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya, Mightiest of The Three :
 Vilya's protection: The Ring of Air shields Rivendell from any evil menace. Units,heroes,walls, gates and buildings inside your base will sustain -75% damage.   
Vilya's preservation: Vilya's influece ensures a minimum amount of good and order in Middle Earth. For the entire duration of the effect the Ring of Air restores the spirit of all the heroes (also allied) on the entire map. The cooldown of their abilities is reduced. 

I'd take into account also the other (less known) aspect of Vilya you quoted somewhere here. I deem it important as well, since probably had much influence on the events of MIddle Earth. A cool way would be connecting his influence (of "good" and "order") to the heroes. My idea is that the Ring could have relieved the Burdens/tasks of good heroes all across middle Earth. In a slighter and more casual/spread way with respect to Narya (which is instead really focused on amplifing Gandalf's magic and improving the courage of people around him, so a local but more intense effect with respect to Vilya, in this sense).

Oh i forgot to mention one thing, just in case: in the future this effect wouldn't be redundant with Angmar central spell. If i remember well the willing of Edain team is to change it in the future. There are some suggestions on the forum about it.

Another thing: saying that units can receive -100% damage as proposed by our dear moderator Walkure, could solve the problem (tecnically speaking) of invulnerability that stuck on units even if you go outside the base. I.e if you count the effect as leadership it should be possible to confine it inside certain borders. It's the only real difference between invincibility and -100% damage. I call up some expert in coding to find out if what i guessed is correct  :D.
By the way, in the description you can call it as you want it makes no difference  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Feb 2019, 16:42
My problem with Vilya is that we have to incorporate restoring effects in its concept and make sure that the said Ring equals Nenya, at the same time. I understand that we shouldn't necessarily think about something greater than the Ring of Water, but equalising their in-game powers is much arduous already.

With the coming of the next patch, Nenya will heal all allied units and buildings continuously, in every corner of the map, for 30 seconds. How can we match something of such magnitude? I guess the influence of Vilya should therefore be multiple, ranging from restoration/refreshment (Rivendell as a place of solace and equilibrium in the world) to considerable protection (shielding the lands in which the Ring is kept from decay and harm). If balance seems to concern you, note that Elrond will cost 3000 resources and what we're discussing is an ultimate feature. It just has to be meaningful and efficacious enough :)


Vilya would wherefore bless the main bodies/components of the faction, exploring different themes as its nature compels.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 16:48
Problem is that we're now locked by wishes of some users to keep restoration. If we remove it, the world ends.
Two things Aule:
1) You're proposing two separate effects (as a result of the sentence above), which I can't image to be implemented in Edain. We should focus on one logical description.
2) I think you're right that difference between invincilibity and -100% attack means that second option you can counter by bonuses. My problem with -100% attack is viusal ... units and heroes will stupidly fight with you units but without effect. It's illogical for me, why you should keep attacking where there is no effect. Invincibility solves the logic - he can't be attacked that's why you can't him attack. 8-| ... it really is never ending thread ... xD

I still think that we overlooked something ... some other effects, even concepts from the previous versions ... because we're locked either in siege aspect, or resistance aspect (plus we're trying to implement restoration as well, somehow). We completely ruled out healing, because Nenya will heal, but thanks to Aule I realized that there can be also other options how to heal than slow permanent healing across the map.

Walküre,
just two elven weather spell which will be gone in the upcoming. Maybe they help us a little.

Zitat
The holy light of Aman rises at the firmament. Cancels out ice rain, snow flurry and darkness. Temporarily paralyses enemy units.

Zitat
The elves can see the stars of Elbereth and gain hope. This cancels the Darkness power and the Freezing Rain power. In addition, all friendly heroes and buildings gain +75% armor for a short time.

And by the way - if Nenya affects only units and buildings (and not heroes), then we're on the right track that Elrond will focus Vilya's power primarily on heroes (and then on the rest of hidden refugee).

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Feb 2019, 17:04
Your arguments about invincibility are more than reasonable. So, I feel like proposing a final version:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya shields Middle-earth from evil and restores the forces of the Good. All buildings within allied bases are invincible (walls included) for a duration. Furthermore, the Ring reduces the cooldown of all heroic abilities and spells.
Lasts 30 seconds.

- Invincibility is saved, together with the whole magical feeling. Uniqueness is too preserved, since the effect involves all your allies.
- It lasts no longer than Nenya, thereby maintaining a clear limit for balance.
- Restoration/Refreshment is equally kept, for the jubilation of this thread's attendees :)
- I think there is no need for some influence on units. Elrond has already a decent leadership and Arwen provides healing. The faction itself consists of the most resilient type of troops ever.

Sorry for the 'suggestion war', but I sense we're close to a definitive solution ;)

EDIT: Your suggestion addresses the right themes, but I consider an armour boost as quite underwhelming for the Ring's magic. Also, heroes would be greatly benefited already, thanks to refreshment; isn't the increasing of their armour quite redundant, especially if Arwen can also heal them?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 17:09
They will cry that invincibility isn't balance wise. You know this. You have foreseen it. It is the risk we all took.

So something like this? I excluded units, cause Nenya affects primarily units.

Zitat
Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - Magic of the mightiest elven ring preserves Imladris from evil influences. All friendly heroes and buildings on the map gain +75% armor and are resistant to magic. Heroic abilities are continuously restored for a long period.
Left click to activate.

Because we want long effect and 30 seconds definitely are.
And it would mean that Cirdan's level 10 ability must be slightly modified. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Feb 2019, 17:14
Fine, then. Thus be it! I agree. What if we also included spells' cooldown?

I have already modified Círdan's ability. It now affects ships and siege weapons, raising their damage and speed; it reflects the thunderous temperament of Ossë, the Maia of storms and mentor of Círdan :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 9. Feb 2019, 17:17
Your arguments about invincibility are more than reasonable. So, I feel like proposing a final version:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya shields Middle-earth from evil and restores the forces of the Good. All buildings within allied bases are invincible (walls included) for a duration. Furthermore, the Ring reduces the cooldown of all heroic abilities and spells.
Lasts 30 seconds.

- Invincibility is saved, together with the whole magical feeling. Uniqueness is too preserved, since the effect involves all your allies.
- It lasts no longer than Nenya, thereby maintaining a clear limit for balance.
- Restoration/Refreshment is equally kept, for the jubilation of this thread's attendees :)
- I think there is no need for some influence on units. Elrond has already a decent leadership and Arwen provides healing. The faction itself consists of the most resilient type of troops ever.

Sorry for the 'suggestion war', but I sense we're close to a definitive solution ;)

Perfect. We can eventually give up units for the reason you stated, plus the Rivendell's soldiers are for sure the most armored and powerful in game overall. The effect on spells it's a cool addition. I'm not so much good in the description yours it's for sure more compact as Tiberius prefer  xD . Since you are a very skilled writers, my friend, you think we can include the story of minimum order in the description? I really like it as lore addition.
Last note: the FX. The almost invisible barrier sorrounding the base we talk about on discord could be a cool addition, together with light rays of blessing on buildings and walls. Let's talk about some ideas concerning FXs  ;)

EDIT: this thread is so active that when i was posting you two posted at the same time  :D The Tiberius one is also good, i've slightly modified it:


Zitat
Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - Magic of the mightiest elven ring preserves Imladris from evil influences. All friendly heroes and buildings on the map ghave double armor and are resistant to magic. Heroic abilities are continuously restored for a long period.
Left click to activate.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 17:21
Zitat
but I consider an armour boost as quite underwhelming for the Ring's magic. Also, heroes would be greatly benefited already, thanks to refreshment

I'm trying to recyclate weather spell and affect the whole map, which is much more impactful as we know.
Concerning heroes - problem is that we must have something that connects restoration and the whole Vilya effect.
Restoration can't stay on its own and then another effect. Or vice versa.
You know "Vilya restores heroes AND also shields your castle" ... it's strange and not connected.

Edit: Wait a minute guys! ... Above it's response to Walk. xD

Edit 2:
Zitat
What if we also included spells' cooldown?

Imladris economy buildings already reduce spell's cooldown.

Edit 3: Aule we want to exclude units in order to be different from Nenya.
Solid structures for me represent the realm. Buildings represent something what you can siege.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 9. Feb 2019, 17:26
You know "Vilya restores heroes AND also shields your castle" ... it's strange and not connected.

That's why i split the description in two different parts. One connected to protection, the other to minimum amount of order. Both comes from lore, even though they sound not connected  [ugly]
And yes, if we include this effect, there will be no more restoration as own ability.

P.S: we clearly need Vilya to make a minimum amount of order in this discussion  :D :D :D
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Feb 2019, 17:37
Last note: the FX. The almost invisible barrier sorrounding the base we talk about on discord could be a cool addition, together with light rays of blessing on buildings and walls. Let's talk about some ideas concerning FXs  ;)

As I have envisaged it, all buildings will be set alight for the whole duration (it was an old 3.8.1 feature) and we may surely add some other FX on fortresses, such as beams of holy light. The Edain Mod's 'FX warehouse' never runs out of material to utilise ;)

I'll update the first post in due time, and explain that secondary trait of Vilya as well.



So, if you're fine, here is our FINAL iteration:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The power of the mightiest Elven Ring shields Rivendell from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map have their armour doubled and are immune to magic.
Vilya reduces the cooldown of all heroic abilities.
Lasts for a long duration.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 9. Feb 2019, 17:42
I'll update the first post in due time, and explain that secondary trait of Vilya as well.



So, if you're fine, here is our FINAL iteration:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - The magic of the mightiest Elven Ring shields Rivendell from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map have their armour doubled and are immune to magic.
Reduces also the cooldown of all heroic abilities.
Lasts for a long duration.

Zitat von: Doctor Strange
Dormammu, i've come to bargain!
Let's break the eternal loop of discussion  :D :D
I AGREE with your final version
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 18:00

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - The magic of the mightiest Elven Ring shields Rivendell from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map have their armour doubled and are immune to magic.
Reduces also the cooldown of all heroic abilities.
Lasts for a long duration.

Why not preservation? It's more Tolkienish.
Blessing ... you can be blessed by Earendil from the sky ... but by ring?
Also I would rewrite it a bit, to more connect the last sentence with the rest (at least remove "also"). Cause now it seems like passive Angmar's centrall spell.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Feb 2019, 18:35
I don't mind 'preservation' either. 'Blessing' infers holiness and makes everything more dignified, reflecting the Ring's supreme status. Nevertheless, I will change the title for the sake of differentiation.

Believe you me, pretty much all descriptions in the game are formatted and ordered likewise. Anyway, I'll try to find a better cohesion :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 18:43
Overall I think that it's quite good compromise. ;)

We're recycling Lorien's weather spell (but visually it'll be different), while keeping Elrond's restoration and preserving magical status of the elven ring by adding magic resistance.

It little mirrors Nenya but with completely different effects.

Maybe is now time to show reworked abilities of Cirdan in Cirdan's thread? :P

Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 9. Feb 2019, 18:54
Hey guys, I love the final version of Vilya that you ended up with. I'm in favour of it and I also believe that raising Elrond's price to 3000 is a must if we consider that he is a powerful Elf Lord of the FA.

I might have another proposal for Elrond, which fortunately doesn't have to do with his Ring of Power. Now that Vilya's effect is probably finalized, I think we should not abandon the other users' idea of combining Elrond's Mount and Ancient Equipment spell in order to free one spot from his skillset. His second or third ability would be the combined one, and since Restoration is incorporated in the Ring of Air now, we could come up with something different to fill the empty spot. It doesn't have to be something really powerful, especially if it is going to be a level 3 skill. In my opinion it's an opportunity we should take advantage of. In the end, this idea only adds to the Lord of Imladris. ;)

So how about, as others suggested, his 3.8.1 ability of lending experience to other heroes? It is not OP at all and enhances his role/aspect as a hero supporter. Or even an utterly new idea?

P.S. Loved that Doctor Strange reference Aulë. xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 19:06
I just want to say that I've missed these forums. :P

You've spent weeks of creating something that fits, respects lore, respects roles, respects other suggestions, respects other spells, abilities, whatever.

And then someone shows up and says "I like what you've done, solved, but lets throw brick into another thing" ... and then you will spent additional weeks of creating something that fits, respects lore, respects roles, respects other suggestions, respects other spells, abilities, whatever. [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 9. Feb 2019, 19:16
Haha yeah I actually felt really bad while I was writing this post. xD

So, what do you think Tiberius? Do you believe Elrond will become a titan after adding this?
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 19:26
So, what do you think Tiberius? Do you believe Elrond will become a titan after adding this?

We can always eat the horse ... joined forces of the good also eated their horses before battle of the black gate after all. For me it's better than strangely combined horse and abilities.

But question is how much the new skill would change his current mass slayer role. He is mass slayer with supportive aspects. Adding more supportive abilities would created two roles for him.


Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Feb 2019, 19:29
Hey guys, I love the final version of Vilya that you ended up with. I'm in favour of it and I also believe that raising Elrond's price to 3000 is a must if we consider that he is a powerful Elf Lord of the FA.

I might have another proposal for Elrond, which fortunately doesn't have to do with his Ring of Power. Now that Vilya's effect is probably finalized, I think we should not abandon the other users' idea of combining Elrond's Mount and Ancient Equipment spell in order to free one spot from his skillset. His second or third ability would be the combined one, and since Restoration is incorporated in the Ring of Air now, we could come up with something different to fill the empty spot. It doesn't have to be something really powerful, especially if it is going to be a level 3 skill. In my opinion it's an opportunity we should take advantage of. In the end, this idea only adds to the Lord of Imladris. ;)

So how about, as others suggested, his 3.8.1 ability of lending experience to other heroes? It is not OP at all and enhances his role/aspect as a hero supporter. Or even an utterly new idea?

P.S. Loved that Doctor Strange reference Aulë. xD

Dear Fellowship, I commend your effort and constructive spirit. You're one of the kindest, most wholesome community members I've ever met so far. I'm thankful for your in-depth suggestions, but I have to reject your proposal. If you recall, I've always expressed my utter disapproval of experience-lending abilities. That's a sort of time machine, programmed to bring us back to the days of Edain 3.8.1. Moreover, the Edain Team have progressively been removing every feature that might risk to get useless after a while. The Gifts of Lórien used to suffer from the same issue. Even more, a level-3 ability of the kind you've proposed would be inevitably doomed to become meaningless (and redundant).

Therefore, I respectfully disagree and invite you to reconsider your position on the matter :)

I just want to say that I've missed these forums. :P

You've spent weeks of creating something that fits, respects lore, respects roles, respects other suggestions, respects other spells, abilities, whatever.

And then someone shows up and says "I like what you've done, solved, but lets throw brick into another thing" ... and then you will spent additional weeks of creating something that fits, respects lore, respects roles, respects other suggestions, respects other spells, abilities, whatever. [uglybunti]

I presume this is what Tiberius intends to say: one more suggestion and...

(https://a-static.besthdwallpaper.com/la-batalla-de-los-cinco-ejercitos-papel-pintado-1920x1080-2730_48.jpg)

Jokes aside, we ought to stick to our final iteration ;)

EDIT (in advance): Good! It seems we all agree with that rendition.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Fellowship am 9. Feb 2019, 19:49
Thank you for your answers guys!

Of course I understand that you struggled to find an appropriate effect for Vilya, one that must satisfy as many as possible. One more ability to rethink would break this thread apart.

Also, thanks for the kind words Walküre; you should know that I strongly believe the same for you dear friend. You are one of the most thoughtful and passionate people here in Modding-Union. You treat everyone with respect and kindness and I thank you for that! :)

As always, you can count me in favour of this brilliant overhaul that you guys created after so many efforts.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 9. Feb 2019, 22:37
As I said earlier in Discord, if Elrond receives a support skill, it should include the combination of Restoration and Vilya's effect. Mightiest of Three must be better then Nenya's Cleansing, the healing effect. This can be ensured with protection of buildings. Reducing the cooldown times of heroic abilities and mentioned impressions about bases provide exactly these fundamental elements . So I am for it.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Only True Witchking am 9. Feb 2019, 23:04
I really like the new idea, and I don't think we'll find anything better. I am definitely joining the list of supporters.


Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 9. Feb 2019, 23:08
Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The magic of the mightiest Elven Ring shields Rivendell from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map get +50% armour, are immune to magic and their abilities recharge faster for a long period.

Does it sound more clear? I've tried to simplify it for the game description.
Now cooldown of buildings abilities is also included ... although I'm not sure if Imladris buildings have some abilities ...  8-| Maybe we can keep it ... it sounds cool ...  xD
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 11. Feb 2019, 04:11
I'd like to add one minor suggestion here just to round up the effect:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The magic of the mightiest Elven Ring shields Rivendell from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map get +50% armour, are immune to magic, can not be knocked down, and their abilities recharge faster for a long period.

With Imladris' numbers being one of it's key drawbacks it's quite easy for them to be focused down via units capable of knockback when the heroes are far more exposed, and unlike other factions Imladris has no means to prevent this outside of the Veterans of the Last Alliance. It also contrasts the "offensive" variant of Vilya (the Gale) which knocks foes down and pulls them into Elrond - this instead protects them from the same effects. It also completes the link between the three rings as Nenya in Galadriel's rework possesses this feature and the proposed suggestion for Gandalf's Narya ties into his bubble shield (which passively protects him from being knocked down when it triggers). It will also controversially assist them against the power of the One (as Sauron's true strength is his immense knockback). The very purpose for which Celebrimbor designed them.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 11. Feb 2019, 05:14
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The magic of the mightiest Elven Ring shields Rivendell from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map get +50% armour, are immune to magic, can not be knocked down, and their abilities recharge faster for a long period.

I was thinking about that but didn't want to include knockback immunity cause it's already implemented in Nenya (technically you need hero with the gift nearby) ... but actually it isn't. We're affecting heroes while Nenya affects units. So it fits perfectly and nice way connects to Ring of Adamant.
We wanted to be Nenya and Vilya on the same level, because from the lore we know that worked completely the same way ... but logically for game purpose we had to find something little different.
And I think that we succeeded. ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 11. Feb 2019, 05:54
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The magic of the mightiest Elven Ring shields Rivendell from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map get +50% armour, are immune to magic, can not be knocked down, and their abilities recharge faster for a long period.

I was thinking about that but didn't want to include knockback immunity cause it's already implemented in Nenya (technically you need hero with the gift nearby) ... but actually it isn't. We're affecting heroes while Nenya affects units. So it fits perfectly and nice way connects to Ring of Adamant.
We wanted to be Nenya and Vilya on the same level, because from the lore we know that worked completely the same way ... but logically for game purpose we had to find something little different.
And I think that we succeeded. ;)
Indeed - though it's not just a connection to the Ring of Adamant but also the Ring of Fire - as though it's indirect as I stated before the Bubble Shield does provide knockback immunity when it triggers.

It also gives each of the three rings it's own distinct variant.
Nenya - The Ring of Adamant provides protection to units.
Vilya - The Ring of Air provides protection to heroes.
Narya - The Ring of Fire provides protection to the user - however is more readily available at the cost of it's power being isolated.

In this sense it would be strange for Vilya the chief of the three not to possess this ability while the others do. It also means that the three combined would in essence cover all bases - and the three were designed to work in tandem against the One.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 11. Feb 2019, 14:41
First and foremost, thank you all for the meaningful support shown. I'll update the main post and insert your name in the 'in favour' list.

I like Samsara's addition related to knock-back immunity. I feel it stresses Vilya's influence on heroes even more. Hence, at the present day, here is the final rendition we have agreed on:

Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The mightiest of the Three Rings shields Middle-earth from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map gain +50% armour and are immune to magic. Heroes cannot be knocked back and their abilities recharge much faster.
Lasts for a long duration.

Some remarks on the text: I replaced 'Rivendell' with 'Middle-earth', so to indicate that Vilya operates for all the forces of the Good, and we also reconnect with our own interpretation that wants the Ring to maintain a minimum amount of order in the world.

All in all, we've done an Elf's job in characterising each of the Three as it was due. Vilya and Nenya will provide a true, global shield, while Narya shall relieve its bearer's shoulders from the burden of his mission; additionally, may I conclude, not only does the Ring of Fire ensure an adequate balance between the wizard's bubble-shield and magic efficacy, but its main focus lies in resistance to adversities, such as ice, fire and poison (the adversities of Gandalf's numerous journeys). Well done, astonishing work!

P.S. Samsara, I noticed that your name is missing from the Narya concept's list. I assume you have by now accepted the entirety of the proposal. Give me a confirmation and I will add your contribution, too ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 11. Feb 2019, 19:03
Zitat
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/edain-mod/images/5/52/Elrond_vilyas_wrath_ability.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/35?cb=20171124113525) Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The mightiest of the Three Rings shields Middle-earth from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map gain +50% armour and are immune to magic. Heroes cannot be knocked back and their abilities recharge much faster.
Lasts for a long duration.


I like also this final version  8-) it seems the one more able to match all the request of the community, so far. I think with these premises we can skip the restoration ability for good. Hope that also Oak and Julio will come back and give their feedback about it.
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 14. Feb 2019, 02:34
Well,

even though the final outcome is fine, we should stress and remind why we started the rework of Elrond's last skill.
It's just because current "Vilya's Wrath" is the rape of the lore. That's it.
And maybe the most visible in the entire game, especially when the game is based on the Lord of the Rings and we know how the Three elven rings of power worked. 8-|

But the ability itself is cool, fits to mass slayer, so we moved that skill below and called it "Wuthering gale". We had to find space so initially we removed restoration, because it's pure hero support ability, which is already part of the skillsets of other heroes, who really are hero supporters (Anarath, Galadriel). But then restoration returned in order to satisfy some players.

If Edain team will find something different, which will be protective/supportive and not offensive, yet impactful, it would be fine as well. Because it can be really whatever. Everything will be much more lore friendly than current rendition. :)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 14. Feb 2019, 14:14
Fair enough. I was waiting for the last seal of approval. I share the exact words of Tiberius and would also like to congratulate all those who have been staunchly following the progress of the general discussion, which did take various different courses in time, iteration after iteration. I'm certain that we've done a commendable work for the Lord of Imladris. Lore accuracy is going to be enhanced further in the game, along with the arcane lore surrounding the secret history of the Three Rings. If even our popular Narya concept is to find a place in the Mod, which I fervently crave, we'll be granted the privilege to have every Elven Ring to function properly and in compliance to the vast, length literature of the canons: Narya, Nenya and Vilya, all imbued with benevolent magic, meant, respectively, for endurance, healing/purifying and preservation/safeguard. We could not have done any better 8-)

I will proceed with the needed modifications of the main presentation post. I think I might even bring this suggestion to the German forum, as we did likewise in the past (with quite encouraging results). Thank you, once again. Consider that the first debates revolving around the Three had started on the late EIC forums of ModDB, where I had posted my very first Nenya proposal (four years ago!). Tiberius surely recalls that and every conceptual struggle of ours afterward ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Feb 2019, 19:16
Updated.
I've also added all positive votes to the list ;)
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 30. Mär 2020, 15:05
I agree with this proposal. So add me to the favor list. Elrond needs more attention as currently I feel he is under-whelming for a ring hero.  So I agree with this proposal.

You know, after re-reading the proposal, I think this is a good power for Elrond's ring and is canonical--but I feel we are getting rid of one of his most iconic abilities, that is to say, his role as a healer.

Therefore, I propose that his Rank 5 ability be changed to "Ancient Herald" refering to his days as herald to Gil-Galad. He would keep his passive ability as is (+25% armor, AOE, etc), but the player could click this ability as well to do a healing spell.

Now if you wanted this to be just a regular miruvor effect or like the old restoration effect would be up to the community. But I do feel besides hiding, preserving, and lending strength to Imladris--Elrond is known as the best healer and this ability must be shown with his character.

Personally, since restoration was a higher ranked ability, I suggest a stronger Miruvor effect that Elrond can place on himself or others. I think this would make the difference for him and improve his effects for Imladris!
Titel: Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 9. Jul 2020, 14:39
After supporting this proposal which is very great work, i just want to share some ideas to improve it, if i may.

Most of Elrond Half-elven abilities will remain the same but this is not his only role in the faction. He never meant to be only mass slayer, besides that he has support role in his time dominantly.

The agreed parts in current offer:


Zitat
"He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."

His last power can be a trigger which shows his wisdom to provide his full potential:

Level 10: Firstborn Wisdom – Elrond remembers the wisdom from Elder Days and it effects his skills in battlefield for a time.

After its activation his former advice skill can be seen. Also Restoration (Wuthering Gale instead) and Vilya skills are more belong to his wise characteristic. So;

Ancient Equipment grants experience nearby ally units and heroes for a time.

Level 7: Restoration: Target allied hero becomes fully healed and his/her skill timers are refreshed by Elrond’s healing magic.

Level 10: Vilya's Preservation - The mightiest of the Three Rings shields Middle-earth from evil and toil. All allied buildings and heroes across the map gain +70% armour and are immune to magic.
Lasts for a long duration.


When Lord of Imladris gains the support role in faction, Arwen can evolve to be interferer for enemies and her borrowed abilities shall be tied to the relevant ones.

Arwen


However she does not exist for only disrupting enemies, her supportive aura becomes more meaningful in the spell due to new role:

Influence of Evenstar: The light of the Evening Star shines brightly in Arwen's soul, invigorating her and nearby allied heroes. Arwen and allied heroes nearby regenerate health twice as fast, get +50% armor and recharge their ability 30% faster.

Best regards.